Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Clear your inbox folks. It is about to fill up with emails from 6th years for the first time since March 13th. All will have found the wifi button and their anxiety will have disappeared.

No sooner had the report gone into the times tonight, when one of my friends teaching in a different school from me had a message from a student asking what grade she was going to give him. Fee paying school too.

Treppen

Shn99 wrote: »

I have seen tweets like the one attached the past half an hour scrolling through twitter, best of luck to all in dealing with the fallout from it.
https://twitter.com/shanebeattynews/status/1258495583351947264?s=21

Here's the number for the department of education (01) 889 6400 . Just refer them onto that.


As every teacher will attest to, the department are very quick to pick up and answer any query (only between the times of 2:00 --> 2:01 on the second Wednesday after the 1st full moon following commencement of each term).

Polka_Dot

Very upset. I've been working on "grinds" with a student (in inverted commas as the student is disadvantaged and I'm receiving no payment). She failed her mock but was on course to get a H6/H5 at the very least. As I'm helping her outside of school I doubt this will be factored into her predicted grade. And she's far from the only student in this situation.

Spanish Eyes

Some parents are worse than their LC kids.

Honestly the competitiveness and demanding of this and that in a time of chaos and crisis is unreal.

We all have to stick together and hope for the best.

I don’t see or read of any such angst in other European countries where final exams were cancelled no bother.

Mardy Bum

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Some parents are worse than their LC kids.

Honestly the competitiveness and demanding of this and that in a time of chaos and crisis is unreal.

We all have to stick together and hope for the best.

I don’t see or read of any such angst in other European countries where final exams were cancelled no bother.

The infrastructure existed in other countries for predictive grades. It doesn't exist here. This will be like opening up the building site that is the National Children's Hospital tomorrow morning.

skippy1977

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What teacher around the country will be willing to write down a fail grade for a student?

Whatever about the grade inflation aspect of it, a percentage of students fail every year. Is anyone willing to commit to a fail. No pass in maths, no college for example.

Sorry you might be missing my point....I would advise the kids so to ENSURE that no one fails...is the department then going to apply the bell curve....which means that the bottom ranked student that I have given an O6 gets an O7.....by ranking a student at the bottom are you committing them to a fail despite YOUR grade for them? OR does every student pass every subject and this year's Leaving Cert have 0% failure rate across all subjects.

Multipass

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Some parents are worse than their LC kids.

Honestly the competitiveness and demanding of this and that in a time of chaos and crisis is unreal.

We all have to stick together and hope for the best.

I don’t see or read of any such angst in other European countries where final exams were cancelled no bother.

Gosh sorry for not being thrilled at my sons career path being affected by a decision based on hysteria. Sure he can just stay inside and watch Netflix for the rest of his life, it’s too dangerous out there.

Pursefan

Shn99 wrote: »

I have seen tweets like the one attached the past half an hour scrolling through twitter, best of luck to all in dealing with the fallout from it.
https://twitter.com/shanebeattynews/status/1258495583351947264?s=21

Yes. Started this evening. Schools need to address this immediately and make it clear that it is an attempt to influence state certification and wont be tolerated.

rainbowtrout

skippy1977 wrote: »

Sorry you might be missing my point....I would advise the kids so to ENSURE that no one fails...is the department then going to apply the bell curve....which means that the bottom ranked student that I have given an O6 gets an O7.....OR does every student pass every subject and this year's Leaving Cert have 0% failure rate across all subjects.

No I'm not suggesting anything about your advice to your students, if I have students failing HL in my subject continuously, I will advise that they do OL.

But there are a percentage that fail both HL/OL/FL every year no matter what advice is given.

If there is say a 2% failure rate in a subject, how can the SEC definitively say that it's your student that should get the fail instead of a student in another school?

We've all had students who don't do a tap of work from one end of the year to another. Some of them against all the odds scrape through the OL exam with a D3 or as it is now an O6. But there are also those who live up to their reputation and fail it.

If you have a student doing an OL subject who has been getting say 34% in class tests up until recently, are you going to give them the O6 which there was a good chance they would achieve in the LC, or go 'no they never managed a 40 in my class, O7 (and fail) it is.

Looking at last years stats, just under 11% failed OL Maths. 7% failed HL and 8% failed foundation.

Applying a curve nationally is easy when everyone has sat the same exam and has a specific mark, not easy when each school is sending in a grade.

The knock on effect for students failing a subject on a predicted grade is probably far greater than being awarded a H2 instead of a H1

skippy1977

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No I'm not suggesting anything about your advice to your students, if I have students failing HL in my subject continuously, I will advise that they do OL.

But there are a percentage that fail both HL/OL/FL every year no matter what advice is given.

If there is say a 2% failure rate in a subject, how can the SEC definitively say that it's your student that should get the fail instead of a student in another school?

We've all had students who don't do a tap of work from one end of the year to another. Some of them against all the odds scrape through the OL exam with a D3 or as it is now an O6. But there are also those who live up to their reputation and fail it.

If you have a student doing an OL subject who has been getting say 34% in class tests up until recently, are you going to give them the O6 which there was a good chance they would achieve in the LC, or go 'no they never managed a 40 in my class, O7 (and fail) it is.

Looking at last years stats, just under 11% failed OL Maths. 7% failed HL and 8% failed foundation.

Applying a curve nationally is easy when everyone has sat the same exam and has a specific mark, not easy when each school is sending in a grade.

The knock on effect for students failing a subject on a predicted grade is probably far greater than being awarded a H2 instead of a H1

Think we are on the same page here. Just wondering the mechanics of how it will all work.

randylonghorn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Clear your inbox folks. It is about to fill up with emails from 6th years for the first time since March 13th. All will have found the wifi button and their anxiety will have disappeared.

... or in many cases increased.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Rumour seems you'll rank your class, results thro senior cycle will be taken into account and a grade arrived at in the context of your schools bell curve over the last few yrs

Precidence for ranking your class already exists at state level for oral exams

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

I would say teachers have no part in the decision making process from here on out.
The information required is stored in the database of each school for management to trawl through.

Benimar

Lecturer here lads. Ye are going to hear some ‘interesting’ life stories over the next few weeks!

You never realise how hard some people have it until they know you are responsible for their grade :rolleyes:

Genuinely feel sorry for the sh1t ye are gong to have to deal with.

km79

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

I would say teachers have no part in the decision making process from here on out.
The information required is stored in the database of each school for management to trawl through.

I would say you will be very much mistaken
This will be pushed back on teachers
Like everything else has been

Also don’t book the holidays in July or August yet
“Under the plan to go to Cabinet, pupils not satisfied with their awarded grades will be given a right of appeal.

According to sources, this will take the form of being given the option of sitting written exams later this year or early next year.”

snoopboggybog

This really is strange. The only subjects i ever did homework for was higher level Maths and Physics. Teachers just gave up on me after a while in fifth year for the other subjects as had no interest. Just crammed two months before the leaving and got 395 points. Only needed 320 points for my course for Electronic Engineering in Maynooth.

I would of been fecked if this happened me.

I'm sure there's tons of others in the same boat who study there own way without doing homework.

ACitizenErased

I did my LC last year and to say I'm outraged is an understatement. Teachers are being put in a ridiculous and unnecessary predicament. The department is basically throwing all responsibility to them. Having worked so hard to get my University place last year, and having seen so many of my friends go through tears to get their place, and some who failed, the thought of some people just being handed great results based not on their ability but on other aspects is honestly sickening. Then there's the people who struggle, getting f*ck all. Ridiculous.

rainbowtrout

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

I would say teachers have no part in the decision making process from here on out.
The information required is stored in the database of each school for management to trawl through.

I doubt any principal is in a position to predict a grade for a student unless they are a teaching principal, based just on marks awarded in summer and christmas exams.

Treppen

I think you'll just give in your marks to the school management and that'll be that. They'll have a look and 'advise' accordingly based on previous results.
Nobody gets a fail.
Anyone appeals to the department they'll get back onto the school. School might adjust up but ultimately it'll go back to the Dept. in which case they can use some weird metric to bump them up for an easy life.

Resits when do ye reckon?

ACitizenErased

Treppen wrote: »

I think you'll just give in your marks to the school management and that'll be that. They'll have a look and 'advise' accordingly based on previous results.
Nobody gets a fail.
Anyone appeals to the department they'll get back onto the school. School might adjust up but ultimately it'll go back to the Dept. in which case they can use some weird metric to bump them up for an easy life.

Resits when do ye reckon?

How will that effect college admissions? Although maybe the lack of international students next year may balance out and free spaces?

snoopboggybog

Treppen wrote: »

I think you'll just give in your marks to the school management and that'll be that. They'll have a look and 'advise' accordingly based on previous results.
Nobody gets a fail.
Anyone appeals to the department they'll get back onto the school. School might adjust up but ultimately it'll go back to the Dept. in which case they can use some weird metric to bump them up for an easy life.

Resits when do ye reckon?

Has to be resits, A lot of people just study two or three months before the leaving and do feck all in school and get the course they want.

Its pretty unfair.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I doubt any principal is in a position to predict a grade for a student unless they are a teaching principal, based just on marks awarded in summer and christmas exams.

I really think the principal will get the final say before they are sent off. They have all the data on previous years results so they'll have wriggle room to adjust that way.
They'll also be privy to other information on the student which teacher's mightn't necessarily have.
They along with career guidance will also have access to entrance exams and other ability / attainment tests they sat.
Learning Support might have to be consulted if a student was recently diagnosed with a learning difficulty.

In some respects teachers will balk at the thoughts of someone else overriding their professional autonomy. In other ways it might be the best possible outcome.
No parental/student calls allowed to teachers. Everything must go through the office.
I think that's the only way to be consistent across all staff and students.

Plus I like the thought of Colm O' Rourke barricaded into his office regretting what he wished for.

km79

Now we get to listen to months of students calling for exams
I hope there is a solid solid plan tomorrow for all of this

bren2001

ACitizenErased wrote: »

I did my LC last year and to say I'm outraged is an understatement. Teachers are being put in a ridiculous and unnecessary predicament. The department is basically throwing all responsibility to them. Having worked so hard to get my University place last year, and having seen so many of my friends go through tears to get their place, and some who failed, the thought of some people just being handed great results based not on their ability but on other aspects is honestly sickening. Then there's the people who struggle, getting f*ck all. Ridiculous.

How do you know all responsibility is being thrown at the teachers? No information on how this is being done has been released. You may well be right but at least give the DEC a chance to provide guidance.

ACitizenErased wrote: »

How will that effect college admissions? Although maybe the lack of international students next year may balance out and free spaces?

The lack of international students is completely overblown in University. There will be a high repeat rate, less resources available, and there still will be international students. There won't be a huge increase (if any) in the number of places for the vast majority of courses. Medicine and a few others aside that is.

For example, I reckon we've about 20 in our undergrad out of a few hundred. International students are just not a factor.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

I would say you will be very much mistaken
This will be pushed back on teachers
Like everything else has been

Also don’t book the holidays in July or August yet
“Under the plan to go to Cabinet, pupils not satisfied with their awarded grades will be given a right of appeal.

According to sources, this will take the form of being given the option of sitting written exams later this year or early next year.”

Calm down one minute. That poster you were responding to made sense. Grades can only be predicted by exams already done and already in a data base. So what more input can teachers have? Granted more meetings, more talking shop, more bull****, but ultimately what more can a teacher be expected to do!

Secondly, do remember that the teaching in July thing was always voluntary. So would you now be willing to come in and teach the kid who wasn't happy with your predicted grade? No way will I darken the door of the place if that's the plan. It's either one or the other!

And I think this is sheer lunacy by the way. A hysterical bunch of cowards in power as one poster put it. The LC is the only proper predictor and with the phased reopening of the country looking good and the Covid crisis receding a little, there is no reason the current plans had to be changed. A bunch of hysterical cowards that pandered to popular pressure. :mad:

But from our perspective, it's less rather than more work

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

Now we get to listen to months of students calling for exams
I hope there is a solid solid plan tomorrow for all of this

Because there will be no solid plan we'll go with Plan C... Exams at the end of July:pac::pac:

Actually some college professor guy on TV3 yesterday put forward a good solution of banding (rather than specific % ) and then within a band a lottery is applied the same way it is when you have 2 lowest scoring students competing for an oversubscribed course with the same points.

Anyone not happy could sit the exam later.

But at least those that are happy with their course choice would be removed from the mix.

lulublue22

Well exams would have suited us much better. My boy is a good student over all but has really struggled with online learning. Judging by some of the posts from teachers here that equates to a lazy git very reassuring for predictive grades if thats the prevailing attitude.

Millionaire only not

What’s the problem, students have loads of tests done every parent/teacher meeting I’ve even at there’s a log on results . It’s black and white .

At least there’s time to get out results get them to college / accommodation. And move on to teaching next years bunch .

It was never going to be easy what ever they went .

doc_17

lulublue22 wrote: »

Well exams would have suited us much better. My boy is a good student over all but has really struggled with online learning. Judging by some of the posts from teachers here that equates to a lazy git very reassuring for predictive grades if thats the prevailing attitude.

We can’t really use what has been done since the shutdown due to the inequality that exists.

If we were judging our opinions of parents in the posts we see here we wouldn’t think much of them.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I doubt any principal is in a position to predict a grade for a student unless they are a teaching principal, based just on marks awarded in summer and christmas exams.

Who said anything about predicting?
A grade is generated from the results available..the exact ‘equation’ of how will presumably be announced tomorrow.I very much doubt any teacher or principal will be predicting anything.