Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

km79

I wonder will he make much difference to college start times
I imagine they will still stick with end of September for safety reasons
And will hardly want all years back together

r93kaey5p2izun

Exams already in database - this is quite a blinkered view I think. Not showing up for house exams is fairly common in some schools. Students often take the exam weeks off to work. Or just CBA (if you excuse the pun). It would have been common for circa 20% of students in my school to reach LC with just one, or sometimes no house exams sat. The same school corrects their own mocks, and minority subjects like Phys/Chem have to set their own papers.

Treppen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

What’s the problem, students have loads of tests done every parent/teacher meeting I’ve even at there’s a log on results . It’s black and white .

At least there’s time to get out results get them to college / accommodation. And move on to teaching next years bunch .

It was never going to be easy what ever they went .

As someone mentioned earlier it's formative versus summative testing.

OttoPilot

At the risk of sounding classist, will schools be weighted by their historical results? For example a kid getting Bs in a school in a better school would probably get more than a kid getting Bs in a really poor school.

OttoPilot

At the risk of sounding classist, will schools be weighted by their historical results? For example a kid getting Bs in a school in a better school would probably get more than a kid getting Bs in a really poor school.

mirrorwall14

Is anyone else just feeling deflated? I killed myself converting resources for online learning, chasing students, recording demonstrations etc etc. It’s been absolutely exhausting and never-ending with no childcare and working from home.

The first chink was the change of language by the department.. the practicals were awarded 100%. Then the rumours of cancelling the junior cert. Then ruining our Easter holidays and destroying the engagement we were fighting for.

The utter chaos for students and staff since in JC-our school STILL have not told our JC what is happening and when their summer assessments take place. Nor were we allowed do what we wanted to in maths for that calculation. Board meeting finally tonight so hopefully they’ll at least get told tomorrow

Then publishing last Friday and the late late show. And all this week media coverage. The leaking of the entire thing to the press. So here we sit. Waiting the hammer blow on us deciding how to rank our students. Dealing with angry, upset, frustrated, disappointed students and parents. Defending decisions.

I have a zoom class scheduled tomorrow afternoon. No point now. And we all found out from the media. Again.

I just want to be back in school. Give me a chaotic busy week of normality please

bren2001

km79 wrote: »

I wonder will he make much difference to college start times
I imagine they will still stick with end of September for safety reasons
And will hardly want all years back together

From a logistics point of view, it will be far easier if they start with everyone else. I can't see a reason they would start at a different time now.

Certainly one of the first questions I will be asking when it official.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

Exams already in database - this is quite a blinkered view I think. Not showing up for house exams is fairly common in some schools. Students often take the exam weeks off to work. Or just CBA (if you excuse the pun). It would have been common for circa 20% of students in my school to reach LC with just one, or sometimes no house exams sat. The same school corrects their own mocks, and minority subjects like Phys/Chem have to set their own papers.

Any student who has never sat a house exam in senior cycle probably ain’t bothered either way.

I’m obviously not referring to the tiny number of students for whom illness was an issue.

Treppen

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Who said anything about predicting?
A grade is generated from the results available..the exact ‘equation’ of how will presumably be announced tomorrow.I very much doubt any teacher or principal will be predicting anything.

Back to politics again.

If grade prediction is taken out of the equation and it falls back on previous grades then the fallout from that will go directly onto the Minister/Department's doorstep.

If grade prediction goes back into the equation then the minister's hands are washed. It will all get tied up with unions, newspapers and Joe Duffy.

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is anyone else just feeling deflated? I killed myself converting resources for online learning, chasing students, recording demonstrations etc etc. It’s been absolutely exhausting and never-ending with no childcare and working from home.

The first chink was the change of language by the department.. the practicals were awarded 100%. Then the rumours of cancelling the junior cert. Then ruining our Easter holidays and destroying the engagement we were fighting for.

The utter chaos for students and staff since in JC-our school STILL have not told our JC what is happening and when their summer assessments take place. Nor were we allowed do what we wanted to in maths for that calculation. Board meeting finally tonight so hopefully they’ll at least get told tomorrow

Then publishing last Friday and the late late show. And all this week media coverage. The leaking of the entire thing to the press. So here we sit. Waiting the hammer blow on us deciding how to rank our students. Dealing with angry, upset, frustrated, disappointed students and parents. Defending decisions.

I have a zoom class scheduled tomorrow afternoon. No point now. And we all found out from the media. Again.

I just want to be back in school. Give me a chaotic busy week of normality please

Well said
My sentiments exactly
Dreading tomorrow and the fall out all weekend and beyond

Time to start looking after ourselves now . Can only hope this doesn’t drag on all summer

Take care folks

Treppen

OttoPilot wrote: »

At the risk of sounding classist, will schools be weighted by their historical results? For example a kid getting Bs in a school in a better school would probably get more than a kid getting Bs in a really poor school.

Not sure what you mean, both B's in both schools are worth the same points!

happywithlife

If as it seems PG are going ahead what do I about my student who genuinely has been a H2 all a long and aiming for a H1 - query as to whether she'd pull it off or not. BUT she was incredibly sick during the mocks. Did sit them but terrible (for her) results - across multiple exams. She got a H4 for me. If mocks feature for her PG it'll devaste her. She's already stressed at the thoughts of it and no reassurance I can give her.
Then there's the student who didn't sit the mocks, or the xmas Nov test now that I think of it ...She'd have shown for the actual exam in June (traditionally) - very little formal assessments for her beyond class tests
Then we have coursework submitted already. Since October. Is that going to factor into PG? How? Why is that fair?

r93kaey5p2izun

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Any student who has never sat a house exam in senior cycle probably ain’t bothered either way.

I’m obviously not referring to the tiny number of students for whom illness was an issue.

Well, perhaps that view is reasonable based on the context you have experienced, but it's totally wrong based on my experience. Most of those students will do a pretty decent LC which will stand to them in life. But how can it be predicted? And tbh, whether you think they're bothered or not is utterly irrelevant. They must be given a fair grade regardless.

OttoPilot

Treppen wrote: »

Not sure what you mean, both B's in both schools are worth the same points!

The exams in a better school are harder. It's no secret that some schools perform better than others, therefore you cant compare the same grade across schools without weighting them.

landofthetree

Multipass wrote: »

I’m so ashamed of my country, I hope my son leaves and gets into a college abroad, I really do. Hysterical cowards in charge of us.

The worst are the brigade who go on about the stress of the LC.

Of course the LC is stressful. But so are many occupations.

If you can't handle exam stress I don't see how you could ever do certain jobs.

lulublue22

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Is anyone else just feeling deflated? I killed myself converting resources for online learning, chasing students, recording demonstrations etc etc. It’s been absolutely exhausting and never-ending with no childcare and working from home.

The first chink was the change of language by the department.. the practicals were awarded 100%. Then the rumours of cancelling the junior cert. Then ruining our Easter holidays and destroying the engagement we were fighting for.

The utter chaos for students and staff since in JC-our school STILL have not told our JC what is happening and when their summer assessments take place. Nor were we allowed do what we wanted to in maths for that calculation. Board meeting finally tonight so hopefully they’ll at least get told tomorrow

Then publishing last Friday and the late late show. And all this week media coverage. The leaking of the entire thing to the press. So here we sit. Waiting the hammer blow on us deciding how to rank our students. Dealing with angry, upset, frustrated, disappointed students and parents. Defending decisions.

I have a zoom class scheduled tomorrow afternoon. No point now. And we all found out from the media. Again.

I just want to be back in school. Give me a chaotic busy week of normality please

I think it has been a hard time for everyone - teachers , students and parents. Closures were sudden and everyone had to try and adjust. I can’t fault my sons school / teachers they have been excellent. As a parent it’s hard watching a good student not manage online learning at all. The constant media hype certainly hasn’t helped either. Hopefully when the dust settles things wont seem as bad .

Millionaire only not

Teachers will go into school and if they have interest in there students , they’ll know who was H 1 2 3 !
they won’t fail anyone and rightly so because that lad or lassie might just go on to do a lot better and maybe a lot better than the students that got there H1’s .
school might not suit him/her. He/she may just think a lot more of his/her teacher many year’s from now .
So let everyone get on with it , give the students a chance to prove themselves and after that it’s there own hard luck .

Millionaire only not

happywithlife wrote: »

If as it seems PG are going ahead what do I about my student who genuinely has been a H2 all a long and aiming for a H1 - query as to whether she'd pull it off or not. BUT she was incredibly sick during the mocks. Did sit them but terrible (for her) results - across multiple exams. She got a H4 for me. If mocks feature for her PG it'll devaste her. She's already stressed at the thoughts of it and no reassurance I can give her.
Then there's the student who didn't sit the mocks, or the xmas Nov test now that I think of it ...She'd have shown for the actual exam in June (traditionally) - very little formal assessments for her beyond class tests
Then we have coursework submitted already. Since October. Is that going to factor into PG? How? Why is that fair?

Give her a H1 and u know it’s the right thing to do .give her the benefit of the doubt and let u and her sleep well

JeffKenna

OttoPilot wrote: »

At the risk of sounding classist, will schools be weighted by their historical results? For example a kid getting Bs in a school in a better school would probably get more than a kid getting Bs in a really poor school.

I presume that's why each school will have to align to previous years LC results. It's a method to standardise the mocks, summer exams etc

History Queen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Teachers will go into school and if they have interest in there students , they’ll know who was H 1 2 3 !
they won’t fail anyone and rightly so because that lad or lassie might just go on to do a lot better and maybe a lot better than the students that got there H1’s .
school might not suit him/her. He/she may just think a lot more of his/her teacher many year’s from now .
So let everyone get on with it , give the students a chance to prove themselves and after that it’s there own hard luck .

That's not fair. I'm assuming (possibly wrong) that we will have to base predictions on evidence. What about teachers subbing covering a class they were only getting to know? What about teachers with school refusers how do they determine their grades? What about students that you know will pass on the day but all documemtary evidence you have on them points towards failure?

I really hope there is a clear and robust system. I doubt it though.

Greensoup

Posted in wrong thread earlier. I’m guessing they will use the average cao points per subject in each school over last 3-4 years to guide them on your schools usual results. So for example in Biology if the leaving cert results in your school have an average of 65 points over those years well the 2020 biology class will also average out at 65 points. Then your principal/school will send the average results that were recorded on vsware for students 7 subjects and possibly Jc to the state exams commission. They will allocate individual results using these averages and the typical results over last 3 years. When 2020 biology class get results the average will be 65 like the bell curve for the subject in the last 3 years. So you’ll get a few H1s, plenty H3s, H4s etc down to H7. Pretty much the same spread as last few years. Emma o kelly said schools typical results over last 3-4 years could be used as a guide. So really teachers shouldn’t have a lot of input as the results on vsware are already there so it’s up to sec to predict grade. Feel free to call crap on this 😂

Treppen

happywithlife wrote: »

If as it seems PG are going ahead what do I about my student who genuinely has been a H2 all a long and aiming for a H1 - query as to whether she'd pull it off or not. BUT she was incredibly sick during the mocks. Did sit them but terrible (for her) results - across multiple exams. She got a H4 for me. If mocks feature for her PG it'll devaste her. She's already stressed at the thoughts of it and no reassurance I can give her.

This is one of the reasons why I think management should have the final say, so that they can take extenuating circumstances into account. Then ye can both be an advocate on behalf of the student.

happywithlife wrote: »

Then there's the student who didn't sit the mocks, or the xmas Nov test now that I think of it ...She'd have shown for the actual exam in June (traditionally) - very little formal assessments for her beyond class tests
Then we have coursework submitted already. Since October. Is that going to factor into PG? How? Why is that fair?

It 'should' factor into predictive grading by giving you and your principal discretion.

OttoPilot

Greensoup wrote: »

Posted in wrong thread earlier. I’m guessing they will use the average cao points per subject in each school over last 3-4 years to guide them on your schools usual results. So for example in Biology if the leaving cert results in your school have an average of 65 points over those years well the 2020 biology class will also average out at 65 points. Then your principal/school will send the average results that were recorded on vsware for students 7 subjects and possibly Jc to the state exams commission. They will allocate individual results using these averages and the typical results over last 3 years. When 2020 biology class get results the average will be 65 like the bell curve for the subject in the last 3 years. So you’ll get a few H1s, plenty H3s, H4s etc down to H7. Pretty much the same spread as last few years. Emma o kelly said schools typical results over last 3-4 years could be used as a guide. So really teachers shouldn’t have a lot of input as the results on vsware are already there so it’s up to sec to predict grade. Feel free to call crap on this 😂

I think this is the fairest way but it will cause war. 17 year old me would be up in arms. 26 year old me sees reality

db

Great year for those whose parents are teachers, the cheats who got the papers for the mocks, those in grind schools who will all get 625 points and those whose parents have a few quid to pop into a brown envelope. God help those who have worked their arses of for 6 years and will see their first choice going to someone who doesn't deserve it. A very bad day for this country.

Mardy Bum

Mocks and 5th year exams should not be used. It would be better to pull results out of a hat for everyone.

TheValeyard

So, we've gone from the frying pan into the fire, to an active volcano. Wow this is some clusterfcuk.

Mock grades should not be used, students in many schools had access to the paper before they sat the exam.

All the work done by students from March to now was pointless.

Definitely going to be legal challenges to results.

So many more issues with this...... Just.... Wow.

CrabRevolution

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Teachers will go into school and if they have interest in there students , they’ll know who was H 1 2 3 !
they won’t fail anyone and rightly so because that lad or lassie might just go on to do a lot better and maybe a lot better than the students that got there H1’s .
school might not suit him/her. He/she may just think a lot more of his/her teacher many year’s from now .
So let everyone get on with it , give the students a chance to prove themselves and after that it’s there own hard luck .

I really have to wonder what you think the whole point of exams is? You seem to be under the impression that the results should bear no resemblance to how they actually perform, and everyone should be given high marks so that they feel good. What happens to college admissions when half the country gets 600 points?

Giving a student a mark they never earned is the opposite of letting them prove themselves. It's lying to them and rewarding them after they've proven they are incapable.

RealJohn

This is going to be an absolute disaster. The only good thing is that it's going to be such a nightmare that the unions will never let us do it again.

Choochtown

Apologies if this has been mentioned but I think there may be a way to make predicted grades only applicable to a small percentage of students.
I'm open to correction on anything I write below as this is just off the top of my head.

The main reason LC results are needed are for 3rd level places. Therefore get the 3rd level institutes involved. The vast vast majority of students who want to go on to 3rd level get to go on. We just need to be a little bit clever with how places are allocated.

Some courses are oversubscribed and some are under-subscribed so lets start with the under-subscribed.

Example: A particular Chemistry degree in UCC has 50 places. 43 students have it as 1st choice on their CAO form. Therefore those 43 are automatically given a place. Straight away we have 43 students who don't need predicted grades and there's 7 places spare to offer during "round 2".
This process is repeated with every single under-subscribed 3rd level course in the country. Those students who had the course down as their 1st choice are not required to obtain predicted grades.
There are also quite a few courses who have interviews and portfolios as part of their entry requirements. Based on these, Colleges should be able to identify some students who have been exceptional in this regard and offer them places regardless of their leaving cert grades.

So that's round 1 done and a few thousand students who don't need LC grades.

Now on to round 2: The over-subscribed courses. Example: A particular Chemistry degree in UL is oversubscribed. Every student who has Chemistry in UL as their 1st choice is made aware that there are places available in (for example) UCC. An individual student may elect to take one of these guaranteed places or may decide to "risk" getting their predicted grades and holding out for their 1st choice.

Now after round 1 and round 2 the students who have decided not to take a course and stick it out can take their chances and apply for predicted grades.

Not a perfect system but much better than teachers having to give every single LC student in the country predicted grades.

OttoPilot

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I really have to wonder what you think the whole point of exams is? You seem to be under the impression that the results should bear no resemblance to how they actually perform, and everyone should be given high marks so that they feel good. What happens to college admissions when half the country gets 600 points?

Giving a student a mark they never earned is the opposite of letting them prove themselves. It's lying to them and rewarding them after they've proven they are incapable.

Agree completely. Students going to college are going to get a rude awakening in January when they have to take a college exam which actually counts towards their degree having never taken a serious exam before.