Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

alroley

I have a student that failed every exam until the mocks. She has been working so hard since Feb and even been emailing me for extra work since the schools closed. She completely changed her attitude and would have done well. If I have to use her previous results she won't.

bren2001

Geuze wrote: »

Non-EU students are mainly in postgrads, I'd say.

That would be my experience all right. They will have little to no impact on course availability for the current LC year.

Notorious

alroley wrote: »

I have a student that failed every exam until the mocks. She has been working so hard since Feb and even been emailing me for extra work since the schools closed. She completely changed her attitude and would have done well. If I have to use her previous results she won't.

You'd imagine this new plan will mean that her previous results will be considered, along with the work she's doing now. If she's unhappy, she'll have to sit an exam at a future date. I think that is as fair as it's going to get at this point.

What about my students whose attendance since fifth year I can count on one and two hands respectively? I don't even know their ability.

randylonghorn

bren2001 wrote: »

That would be my experience all right. They will have little to no impact on course availability for the current LC year.

There's a lot of truth in that for most courses.

Med? ... that will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Mardy Bum

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Wellbeing is a word that has almost poisoned every conversation around exams now. Started off with good intentions but now used as an excuse to question anything difficult.

When these students start doing 14 hour days in one of the Big 4s they will have some land.

randylonghorn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

When these students start doing 14 hour days in one of the Big 4s they will have some land.

Does this land come with road frontage though?

Purefrank128

Notorious wrote: »

What about my students whose attendance since fifth year I can count on one and two hands respectively? I don't even know their ability.

Will you be asked to rank them in terms of their ability or in terms of how you think they might have done in the LC in your subject? If the latter, then I think you probably know pretty well where to rank them.

Overall, I think the plan the newspapers are reporting is ridiculous, or at least it's ridiculous for it to be announced now, months before the exams were due to start. This is pandering to the "students under extreme stress, the silent victims of Covid" merchants. If postponing an exam causes you unmanageable stress, the exam is not the problem.

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

Big letter in Irish indo from a student calling for leaving cert to be run
To protect students mental health !

This is the mess that has been created now

Funny how they weren't printing those kind of letters for the last month or so.

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Funny how they weren't printing those kind of letters for the last month or so.

Oh, watch as they switch to "we are being unfairly treated, we are deprived of the opportunity to prove ourselves!" stories.

Coz it will sell papers / get airtime.

bren2001

randylonghorn wrote: »

There's a lot of truth in that for most courses.

Med? ... that will be interesting to see how it plays out.

How RCSI handle this will be interesting. I don't know anything about their funding model but I'm guessing it's heavily reliant on large numbers of non-EU students.

I would imagine they will try to restructure the course to move as many practicals into 2nd semester and 2nd year as much as possible. Use remote teaching and just bloody pay for remote proctoring of exams. That is what I would be advocating for if I was there.

It's one of the few courses where extra places may be available.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Funny how they weren't printing those kind of letters for the last month or so.

I think that encapsulates the whole situation.
People are making hay out of a very difficult situation and a lot of 'journalists' in the media are happy to throw students under a bus to get their clickbait.

rainbowtrout

From this morning's Indo:

Sweeping changes to this year's Leaving Cert will allow for predictive grades, while students will need to opt in to sit the exams.

The 61,000 students will have to choose and, in the first instance, will be asked whether they want to be assessed via predictive grades, which would be based on their performance in school.

But it is understood that candidates who want to sit the traditional exams - and they have a legal right to do so - will be facilitated.

A student survey conducted last weekend showed that 79pc of sixth years now support the option of predictive grades, suggesting that a significant majority would take this route.

But for anyone who does not want to do that, exams will be held. And if, as expected, the number of candidates were significantly lower, it makes these exams a more feasible prospect in the context of public health restrictions.

The Cabinet is expected to be briefed on the alternative arrangements today.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar acknowledged in the Dáil yesterday that the uncertainty over the Leaving Cert was causing "enormous stress" and said he wanted to bring conclusion to the issue this week, which suggests an announcement will be made after the meeting.




Mr Martin asked why had "members of Government talked about starting dates for examinations without any detail on how that can be accomplished?"

The expected plans will be a radical departure from the norm. It comes against the backdrop of the challenge of conducting exams for 61,000 students while social distancing protocols and other public health restrictions are in place.

Even rescheduling from early June to July 29, as initially proposed in response to the Covid-19 threat, offers no guarantee that a written examination could go ahead safely.

The ongoing uncertainty has driven up student stress levels and forced the move this week to open up discussions on other options, including predictive grading.

Surveys by the Irish Second-Level Students' Union (ISSU) show a big jump in support among sixth years for cancellation of the exams and the use of predictive grading. It was up to 79pc this week, compared with 58pc a month ago.

He was responding to Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin who said "the position regarding the Leaving Cert is unacceptable".

Intensive discussions on the alternative arrangements continued yesterday, with a major focus on developing a system of predictive grading, which would win the trust of students. Achieving fairness is paramount, with inconsistencies between schools in terms of measuring student performance. Account would also have to be taken of the varying socioeconomic circumstances of different school communities and how that affects pupil attainment.

It is understood one approach under active consideration would involve a mix of student grades in a selection of house exams along with their overall ranking against their peers in the same school.

The ISSU told Education Minister Joe McHugh this week that a predictive grading system must ensure fairness and equity.

I have to say, I really resent learning about the outcome of all of this from the Indo rather than the Dept of Education but here we are. I'm sure we'll hear the details this afternoon, but my interpretation of the above is that an opt in to exams would imply that they would run those exams as planned albeit with smaller numbers. I can't imagine that CAO offers could be made to those that opt for predicted grades without allowing those sitting exams to get their grades and compete for those same places.

If this is the case, students will have to choose carefully between exams or predicted grades.

Rosita

Daisy 55 wrote: »

This is my first post on this thread


5) The real fear seems to be is that a teacher will not be honest in giving an honest predictive grade. School principals will have to step up to the mark here and question/ ask for proof of submitted grades. My fear is that grades would be overinflated by some teachers in wanting to make themselves look good. However a good principal would see a grade that seems not in line with other grades or with Christmas/ summer/ pre grades and ask for proof of submitted grades. If the minister said that this would occur then I would predict that each teacher should be able to estimate to within 5% the actual grade a student should get.
6) Each teacher should submit there grade to the principal/ dept of Ed. and when all grades are submitted an overall points is awarded to a student. The student will not be told what grade is given in any subject, this will/ should prevent them claiming bias against any teacher.
7) If a student gets say 400 points in this system then I would give a 5% leeway ( or 10%) ie 20 points in a ousts even they apply for, so if their 1st choice is 415 then I would deem them eligible for the course.
8) If after a year/ semester that it is seen that they are not capable for the course then they should be allowed free of charge to change to a course on their CAO that has a max points of 400.
.

Points 5 & 6 shouldn't really arise. There's plenty of data on school systems already regarding exams which supposedly were marked fairly and not potentially skewed by the knowledge they would count towards the LC. Outside of that subjective judgements from the teacher need to be minimal.

On points 7 & 8 - bear in mind that university course points are determined by capacity and demand for places. Points do not represent an abstract eligibility for courses. They are determined by the number of applicants and essentially what you are saying is that people who do not have the points should be taken in which means that the numbers on a particular course increases. Presumably there's a limit on numbers for a reason. It is likely that changing this would have significant implications for universities and how they organise themselves. Likewise allowing potentially large numbers of people to change course after a year. Universities will have enough logistical challenges in the years ahead.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

From this morning's Indo:

I have to say, I really resent learning about the outcome of all of this from the Indo rather than the Dept of Education but here we are.

Obviously the group that was meeting for these discussions was leakier than a sieve. I suppose it is a weakness of a body like the Dept of Ed that they just don't move quickly enough in a 24/7 news cycle environment to prevent this.

randylonghorn

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously the group that was meeting for these discussions was leakier than a sieve. I suppose it is a weakness of a body like the Dept of Ed that they just don't move quickly enough in a 24/7 news cycle environment to prevent this.

Or it suits them to leak so they can gauge reaction before making an official statement?

Seriously, I can hear Sir Humphrey Appleby in my dreams these days ...

RealJohn

randylonghorn wrote: »

Or it suits them to leak so they can gauge reaction before making an official statement?

Seriously, I can hear Sir Humphrey Appleby in my dreams these days ...

This is 100% the case.
Well, I don't know what you're hearing in your dreams, in fairness, but the other bit.

km79

I think the reality of this is now hitting home for some students who got caught up in the hysteria
“Student voice “ is up there with “Wellbeing” for me now
Yes they need to be heard
But sometimes decisions have to be taken by adults involved in their education
Sure none of us would ever have done exams if we had the choice
But that doesn’t work
And of course some students voices were louder than others during this for various reasons

Be careful what you wish for was my first thought
The plan that goes with this needs to be rock solid or it will be an absolute nightmare all round

Rosita

randylonghorn wrote: »

Or it suits them to leak so they can gauge reaction before making an official statement?

Seriously, I can hear Sir Humphrey Appleby in my dreams these days ...

Fair bit of that going on alright I'd say. That would be a "courageous" decision, Minister!

Bobtheman

I really thought it possible to run the exams. Except for the big three subjects you'd have small enough numbers. It could easily be arranged to have ten kids per room
About 10% of our school have readers etc
I think they gave into pressure.
Not impressed with the decision.
Thankfully I have a small LC ordinary class.
Most did sweet **** all most of the year or got aggressive if you challenged them on it so not going to lose sleep on them.

randylonghorn

RealJohn wrote: »

Well, I don't know what you're hearing in your dreams, in fairness, but the other bit.

In fairness, John, my dreams can be ... interesting!

They don't normally include Appleby tho!

r93kaey5p2izun

What a shambles. I wonder about the students I teach one evening a week. There's no Maths teacher and I take them during evening study for 2 hours. Not a hope I will be getting involved. But who will be??

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

I really thought it possible to run the exams. Except for the big three subjects you'd have small enough numbers. It could easily be arranged to have ten kids per room
About 10% of our school have readers etc
I think they gave into pressure.
Not impressed with the decision.
Thankfully I have a small LC ordinary class.
Most did sweet **** all most of the year or got aggressive if you challenged them on it so not going to lose sleep on them.

We don’t know the full decision yet
We may still be back in for July yet who knows to accomodate the students who now see the reality of what they “wanted “

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

Thankfully I have a small LC ordinary class.
Most did sweet **** all most of the year or got aggressive if you challenged them on it so not going to lose sleep on them.

And good to see such a group get a mention amid all the "my daughter is so stressed about her college place" talk. There's probably about a quarter of the LC cohort laughing their heads off right now.

randylonghorn

Honestly km, and it's just gut tbh, but I don't really believe the majority wanted this.

The loudest shouters yes ...

The ones who will pontificate in ISSU, and in Uni SU, and gear themselves up towards politics w/o giving a flying fk who they walk on ... yeah!

But them's a ... special ... breed, man!

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

We don’t know the full decision yet
We may still be back in for July yet who knows to accomodate the students who now see the reality of what they “wanted “

Stranger things have happened. Usually government statements of late have left countless questions unanswered and unfortunately I expect Joe McHugh's statement later will probably do the same. In fairness, a public statement such as this is probably not the place for minute detail and that'll emerge probably over the next month or so.

Mardy Bum

The idea that the quite clear and comprehensive research regarding the inadequacies of PG has been ignored coupled with the idea that school based data will be used for it tells you everything about the dearth of expertise in the DES.

r93kaey5p2izun

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

What a shambles. I wonder about the students I teach one evening a week. There's no Maths teacher and I take them during evening study for 2 hours. Not a hope I will be getting involved. But who will be??

Well what do you know. I have continued supporting them online since the closure, but only half of them were engaged. One who hadn't engaged and who ignored all communication since March has just sent me a message looking for help with a sum! Has he not heard the news? Is he thinking I will have some input and now trying look good? I don't know what to make of it. Hard to take it at face value.

Rosita

randylonghorn wrote: »

Honestly km, and it's just gut tbh, but I don't really believe the majority wanted this.

The loudest shouters yes ...

The ones who will pontificate in ISSU, and in Uni SU, and gear themselves up towards politics w/o giving a flying fk who they walk on ... yeah!

But them's a ... special ... breed, man!

It's funny, I saw a text from a teacher this morning saying that "only 30%" of the student body was polled (according to the Students' Group themselves). I'd imagine that thrust of what the teacher was getting at is that this is not reflective of students generally.

However, in something like political polling confident conclusions are drawn from small single percentages of an electorate. A 30% poll (and I know people could picks holes in that all day long - e.g. was it scientific?, what was asked? etc.) is incredibly large.

Treppen

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

What a shambles. I wonder about the students I teach one evening a week. There's no Maths teacher and I take them during evening study for 2 hours. Not a hope I will be getting involved. But who will be??

Maybe you could fill the principal in off the record.
I'm 100% positive every principal will be allowed have a stake in the process.

RealJohn

randylonghorn wrote: »

Honestly km, and it's just gut tbh, but I don't really believe the majority wanted this.

The loudest shouters yes ...

The ones who will pontificate in ISSU, and in Uni SU, and gear themselves up towards politics w/o giving a flying fk who they walk on ... yeah!

But them's a ... special ... breed, man!

I'm not sure I entirely agree. I think they probably did want this, but they didn't know what "this" actually is, or what it would entail, and those who were trying to point out why they were wrong to want it were shouted down and ignored.

Now, we'll find out who wanted this because they actually knew what they were asking for (very few, I suspect), and who wanted this because they thought it was an easy way to get grades as good or better than they would have anyway, without accounting for the fact that that's no advantage if everyone else is in the same boat.