Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

doc_17

Don’t be worrying about teachers giving out H1s and all willy nilly. It won’t happen. The teachers know that they have to get this right, the brightest and hardest workers will be punished if teachers go easy.

The LC year, even though they don’t know it, are issuing out on a massive part of their life.

km79

Rosita wrote: »

Stranger things have happened. Usually government statements of late have left countless questions unanswered and unfortunately I expect Joe McHugh's statement later will probably do the same. In fairness, a public statement such as this is probably not the place for minute detail and that'll emerge probably over the next month or so.

School finishes in 3 weeks .
If the detail is not there we will be listening to the other side of "student voice" for those 3 weeks.
And it will change again.
They are cancelling the LC. A monumental decision that you would hope was carefully considered and therefore the finer details have been ironed out and a solid WORKABLE plan laid out today

doc_17

Whatever the plan is, it will be wrong for someone.

wirelessdude01

doc_17 wrote: »

Whatever the plan is, it will be wrong for someone.

This one million percent.

bren2001

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The idea that the quite clear and comprehensive research regarding the inadequacies of PG has been ignored coupled with the idea that school based data will be used for it tells you everything about the dearth of expertise in the DES.

Until the Minister gives a statement, I think it's hard to criticise the decision. The rationale and reasoning behind it has not been laid out yet.

If the rationale is that the medical advice changed over the last few days and it became apparent that holding the LC in August would not be feasible, then what other viable solution is there? It is a flawed solution but every plausible solution has huge flaws.

km79

What time are we expecting announcement?

randylonghorn

Rosita wrote: »

However, in something like political polling confident conclusions are drawn from small single percentages of an electorate. A 30% poll (and I know people could picks holes in that all day long - e.g. was it scientific?, what was asked? etc.) is incredibly large.

A 30% poll is pretty good tbh ... if it was actually 30% of indiv voters voting once.

But on online polling, when youngsters these days could run rings round you and me in terms of using other devices and getting round the restrictions ...

Genuinely, would we have been any different at their age?

I was well prepared for the LC ... it still scared the sh1t outta me ...

RealJohn wrote: »

I'm not sure I entirely agree. I think they probably did want this, but they didn't know what "this" actually is, or what it would entail, and those who were trying to point out why they were wrong to want it were shouted down and ignored.

Now, we'll find out who wanted this because they actually knew what they were asking for (very few, I suspect), and who wanted this because they thought it was an easy way to get grades as good or better than they would have anyway, without accounting for the fact that that's no advantage if everyone else is in the same boat.

i wouldn't argue, John, think there's a lot of that in it too.

Kerrydiva

3pm according to Carl in the IT

r93kaey5p2izun

km79 wrote: »

What time are we expecting announcement?

5pm on a Friday is the norm for education announcement- why change?

Mardy Bum

bren2001 wrote: »

Until the Minister gives a statement, I think it's hard to criticise the decision. The rationale and reasoning behind it has not been laid out yet.

If the rationale is that the medical advice changed over the last few days and it became apparent that holding the LC in August would not be feasible, then what other viable solution is there? It is a flawed solution but every plausible solution has huge flaws.

If the LC cannot go ahead in August, there are much bigger issues at stake than the LC itself. It means the economy will be shut indefinitely and the roadmap was rubbish.

According to RTE, the department have been working on this for weeks. This is a huge money saver. Every educational reform is predicated on saving money more than any other factor. This has become clear over the last ten years.

Treppen

Kerrydiva wrote: »

3pm according to Carl in the IT

Carl must be wondering why bother. Shur didn't himself and his Indo colleagues issue the press release already?

Treppen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If the LC cannot go ahead in August, there are much bigger issues at stake than the LC itself. It means the economy will be shut indefinitely and the roadmap was rubbish.

According to RTE, the department have been working on this for weeks. This is a huge money saver. Every educational reform is predicated on saving money more than any other factor. This has become clear over the last ten years.

Too right, and when the economy is going to bits this little crumb will be thrown out about 'government savings' after taking the decision to cancel the JC and LC.

r93kaey5p2izun

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe you could fill the principal in off the record.
I'm 100% positive every principal will be allowed have a stake in the process.

I don't think I will tbh. The principal stopped paying me in March. He can sort out his own mess. I've done more than my fair share. I won't be involved in anything that could later be the subject of a legal appeal. It's no surprise the school has zero Maths teachers.

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

School finishes in 3 weeks .
If the detail is not there we will be listening to the other side of "student voice" for those 3 weeks.
And it will change again.
They are cancelling the LC. A monumental decision that you would hope was carefully considered and therefore the finer details have been ironed out and a solid WORKABLE plan laid out today

I'd be surprised if we are given a plan at the detail of "Christmas exam in Fifth Year = 25%" etc. today. I'd expect more likely something about "all stakeholders having a say" and further discussion but that's pure guesswork.

Under normal circumstances results wouldn't be out for another 12 weeks so they have time. I'd also expect that they will attempt to reach some accommodation with Third-Level institutions e.g. we'll fund you x amount if you can increase places. But you're right, it's a monumental decision but the last thing we need is a rushed solution. They might be canvassing a bit of legal advice too I'd say.

bren2001

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If the LC cannot go ahead in August, there are much bigger issues at stake than the LC itself. It means the economy will be shut indefinitely and the roadmap was rubbish.

According to RTE, the department have been working on this for weeks. This is a huge money saver. Every educational reform is predicated on saving money more than any other factor. This has become clear over the last ten years.

I don't see how the two are fundamentally linked. The roadmap for the start of the exams indicates childcare opening on a phase basis e.g. one day per week per family, small gatherings with a maximum limit and social distancing among other changes.

The issue a lot of people had was that it is almost impossible to see how the LC could align by these rules. The government have repeatedly said, we could take 2 steps forward and 1 back. The phases are educated guesses as to how the virus develops, nothing more.

titan18

Rosita wrote: »

I'd be surprised if we are given a plan at the detail of "Christmas exam in Fifth Year = 25%" etc. today. I'd expect more likely something about "all stakeholders having a say" and further discussion but that's pure guesswork.

Under normal circumstances results wouldn't be out for another 12 weeks so they have time. I'd also expect that they will attempt to reach some accommodation with Third-Level institutions e.g. we'll fund you x amount if you can increase places. But you're right, it's a monumental decision but the last thing we need is a rushed solution.

Its not like you can increase places on a lot of courses. Short of building new buildings, how do you increase places on courses with lots of lab work. There's only a certain amount of room.

bren2001

Rosita wrote: »

I'd be surprised if we are given a plan at the detail of "Christmas exam in Fifth Year = 25%" etc. today. I'd expect more likely something about "all stakeholders having a say" and further discussion but that's pure guesswork.

Under normal circumstances results wouldn't be out for another 12 weeks so they have time. I'd also expect that they will attempt to reach some accommodation with Third-Level institutions e.g. we'll fund you x amount if you can increase places . But you're right, it's a monumental decision but the last thing we need is a rushed solution.

You should look at the Human Capital Initiative. This deals directly with this topic and it's a little bit more complicated than you may first think. It's hard to increase capacity.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

People are right to moan and whinge about it, it should remain under full public ownership after the fact

Ah OK, even if it costs the taxpayer more to build and run?
If the NBP was so popular, why was there only one bidder at the end?

Your answer is Ireland to a tea, always looking for the absolute perfect solution, yet can never see the bigger picture.

Rosita

titan18 wrote: »

Its not like you can increase places on a lot of courses. Short of building new buildings, how do you increase places on courses with lots of lab work. There's only a certain amount of room.

I don't know. Maybe staggered courses. I'm just speculating as to how they might try to sell an idea that will be hard to sell.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

It's funny, I saw a text from a teacher this morning saying that "only 30%" of the student body was polled (according to the Students' Group themselves). I'd imagine that thrust of what the teacher was getting at is that this is not reflective of students generally.

However, in something like political polling confident conclusions are drawn from small single percentages of an electorate. A 30% poll (and I know people could picks holes in that all day long - e.g. was it scientific?, what was asked? etc.) is incredibly large.

True, but when you poll say 1000 people for a survey you are trying to get a cross section of the population in terms of age, gender, socio-economic groups etc. The ISSU put out this survey but it was incumbent on students to login to their website (or whatever) to vote on it. That in itself is a bias. Lots of students are just keeping their heads down and getting on with their work and may not have completed the survey.

No different from the LC forum on here. You rarely see students posting in there going 'I'm aiming for 230 points, how I can improve my score?', it's always students going 'How can I get an A1 in......?'

One of the teachers I work with posted in our group chat this morning that when she got up this morning and logged into Teams that there were 12 essays sitting there waiting for correction from late last night from LC students. Those are not the actions of students looking for predictive grades. They want to go all the way.

Dickie10

God this type of predictive grades could have given me a decent leaving cert. although i scarcely deserved it. i was terrible in exam setting i think i finished up with 240 points or something.

Rosita

bren2001 wrote: »

This deals directly with this topic and it's a little bit more complicated than you may first think. It's hard to increase capacity.

Not sure where you get the idea that I think increasing capacity is not complicated. In fact I posted a few hours ago arguing against someone who suggested taking people into courses who were only a small bit short of the points because of capacity. I'm simply wondering what they might look into in order to soften the blow of the LC being cancelled without a waterproof alternative.

When you strip it back the LC is just a certificate to say you have completed post-primary education. That, like the JC, could be handed out immediately. The key issue with results is to do with third-level intake which uses the LC as the mechanism. Other than that results are relatively insignificant.

I am merely suggesting that since this is the kernel of the problem they might look in that direction for a solution. I never said it could be done. And I certainly never said it could be done easily. Just that it would be a direct hit on the key challenge if it could be tackled.

bren2001

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure where you get the idea that I think increasing capacity is not complicated. In fact I posted a few hours ago arguing against someone who suggested taking people into courses who were only a small bit short of the points because of capacity. I'm simply wondering what they might look into in order to soften the blow of the LC being cancelled without a waterproof alternative.

When you strip it back the LC is just a certificate to say you have completed post-primary education. That, like the JC, could be handed out immediately. The key issue with results is to do with third-level intake which uses the LC as the mechanism. Other than that results are relatively insignificant.

I am merely suggesting that since this is the kernel of the problem they might look in that direction for a solution. I never said it could be done. And I certainly never said it could be done easily. Just that it would be a direct hit on the key challenge if it could be tackled.

Nor was I suggesting you thought it was an easy thing to do. I was just pointing out that there was a funding call earlier this year for the expansion of University places. Some work has gone into this already and independently of the virus but would be logistically very hard to get up and running in the short term.

Universities in almost all courses could stretch resources by 5-10% but some would have hard limits. Some with good reasons, others I'd question.

I dont personally see what problem it solves but I'd happily increase my class sizes for 1 cohort. I wouldn't oppose it if it is proposed by the heads and deans.

markodaly

Treppen wrote: »

Change the record Marko . This is about predictive grading not a chance to start bashing public sector, teachers, and unions.

I don't want to get into that type of thread.
However, I do hope everyone now sees the folly of continuing with the LC in its current format, it is long long over due for reform.
The current problems are indicative on the fact this was not done beforehand.

randylonghorn

Rosita wrote: »

But you're right, it's a monumental decision but the last thing we need is a rushed solution.

I honestly admire your optimism, given that we've been given several rushed solutions in a row ... and they haven't followed the "when in a hole, dig up" policy either!

Rosita

bren2001 wrote: »

Nor was I suggesting you thought it was an easy thing to do. I was just pointing out that there was a funding call earlier this year for the expansion of University places. Some work has gone into this already and independently of the virus but would be logistically very hard to get up and running in the short term.

Universities in almost all courses could stretch resources by 5-10% but some would have hard limits. Some with good reasons, others I'd question.

I dont personally see what problem it solves but I'd happily increase my class sizes for 1 cohort. I wouldn't oppose it if it is proposed by the heads and deans.

It solves the problem of some people feeling that they didn't get a third-level place under the proposed plan that they feel they might have by sitting the LC, which will presumably be the biggest criticism of the system.

Rosita

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

5pm on a Friday is the norm for education announcement- why change?

Latest talk is 1.30 according to the radio just now.

titan18

Rosita wrote: »

I don't know. Maybe staggered courses. I'm just speculating as to how they might try to sell an idea that will be hard to sell.

Just based on my own experience in a lab based course (albeit several years ago), it wouldn't be workable. You'd have labs and classes that were already split in two due to shortage, but then when it came to project time, it was always completely full. As it was, there wasn't enough spaces if the whole class had to or wanted to be in there. I'd imagine most lab courses are the same, tutorials/practical work gets split into smaller group to facilitate it.

Rosita

titan18 wrote: »

Just based on my own experience in a lab based course (albeit several years ago), it wouldn't be workable. You'd have labs and classes that were already split in two due to shortage, but then when it came to project time, it was always completely full. As it was, there wasn't enough spaces if the whole class had to or wanted to be in there. I'd imagine most lab courses are the same, tutorials/practical work gets split into smaller group to facilitate it.

I never mentioned lab-based courses and that's a level of detail I couldn't possibly comment on. All I said was that they might look into increasing third-level courses as a sweetener given that they are likely to be the sticking point regarding the LC.

Of course there are a thousand more reasons why it couldn't happen. But everything is impossible until it does happen. Teaching from home was unthinkable. University exams at home were unthinkable. Opening schools under social conditioning in September is unthinkable. But a way was found/will be found for all of them. Let's not underestimate human ingenuity and how lack of options can concentrate the mind.

CrabRevolution

Rosita wrote: »

I never mentioned lab-based courses and that's a level of detail I couldn't possibly comment on. All I said was that they might look into increasing third-level courses as a sweetener given that they are likely to be the sticking point regarding the LC.

Of course there are a thousand more reasons why it couldn't happen. But everything is impossible until it does happen. Teaching from home was unthinkable. University exams at home were unthinkable. Opening schools under social conditioning in September is unthinkable. But a way was found/will be found for all of them. Let's not underestimate human ingenuity and how lack of options can concentrate the mind.

University exams at home were hardly unthinkable. Numerous distance courses have done them long before this.