Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

bren2001

Rosita wrote: »

It solves the problem of some people feeling that they didn't get a third-level place under the proposed plan that they feel they might have by sitting the LC, which will presumably be the biggest criticism of the system.

Those students are being given the opportunity to sit the exams is my understanding (when, I don't know). My understanding of predictive grades is that, on average, a student would see an increase in points (that's ignoring that they are fit to a bell-shaped curve). Finally, students feel hard done by every year, while I would agree with this years cohort, I would hope it will be a relatively small amount.

CrabRevolution wrote: »

University exams at home were hardly unthinkable. Numerous distance courses have done them long before this.

With no remote proctoring it was relatively unthinkable. There was no remote proctoring this year.

Rosita

CrabRevolution wrote: »

University exams at home were hardly unthinkable. Numerous distance courses have done them long before this.

Okay, okay, I finally give up.

solerina

Serious Question.....Can we refuse ? It is not in anyone’s job description to predict LC grades.

Mardy Bum

CrabRevolution wrote: »

University exams at home were hardly unthinkable. Numerous distance courses have done them long before this.

There has been widespread cheating for all intents and purposes in these exams.

km79

solerina wrote: »

Serious Question.....Can we refuse ? It is not in anyone’s job description to predict LC grades.

The union seems to have decided for us

Just reading that it is likely any students opting in for exams will not take exam until next dec/January
Who prepares them for it ?

randylonghorn

Rosita wrote: »

I never mentioned lab-based courses and that's a level of detail I couldn't possibly comment on. All I said was that they might look into increasing third-level courses as a sweetener given that they are likely to be the sticking point regarding the LC.

Honestly, Rosita, before the last recession you'd have had a very valid point.

Then funding for 3L was cut and cut, and numbers went up and up.

And H&S started to get seriously worried, and lecturers clambered down through packed aisles and stepped over people to give a lecture, and genuinely began to feel claustrophobic.

And in fairness, it's mostly a first year problem ... but then, it's first years we're talking about, right?

Rosita wrote: »

Teaching from home was unthinkable. University exams at home were unthinkable..... But a way was found/will be found for all of them. Let's not underestimate human ingenuity and how lack of options can concentrate the mind.

I agree, actually.

But please NB the class actions in US by students seeking fee rebates coz they are not getting the "classroom experience".

And in one way, I agree with them.

And in another, my cynical side says "opportunism + litigious culture + crazy high fees = take it to court and chance your arm".

Not sure yet which of my sides is right.

Maybe both? :pac:

solerina

km79 wrote: »

The union seems to have decided for us

Just reading that it is likely any students opting in for exams will not take exam until next dec/January
Who prepares them for it ?

They surely have to take grinds or re enroll in a second level school. This whoLe plan of his sounds crazy the more you listen to him !!
The unions need to be contacted and fast !!

km79

solerina wrote: »

They surely have to take grinds or re enroll in a second level school. This whoLe plan of his sounds crazy the more you listen to him !!
The unions need to be contacted and fast !!

What happens if their school is at capacity......

Random sample

There will have to be some sort of safe guard against failing. I'm thinking of maths in particular, where a sizable amount of students fail. If a teacher predicts a h6 as the lowest grade, but a number of candidates in that school have failed in the last 5 years, say, will that mean that student (and possibly others) come back as a fail?

rainbowtrout

Random sample wrote: »

There will have to be some sort of safe guard against failing. I'm thinking of maths in particular, where a sizable amount of students fail. If a teacher predicts a h6 as the lowest grade, but a number of candidates in that school have failed in the last 5 years, say, will that mean that student (and possibly others) come back as a fail?

Potentially. I notice in the guide to calculated grades it says 'will be awarded a mark'. Not a grade. So if you have 4 students in the H6 category and the SEC adjust the marks downwards in line with normal outcomes for the school then presumably the ones with the lowest mark could get moved into the H7 category.

I'm not sure why there would be a safeguard against failing. I understand that a teacher is now making this prediction rather than it being assessed on the student's performance in the exam so it could be the difference between entry to college or not (e.g. failing maths), but there won't be a 0% failure rate. That isn't in line with normal outcomes. 11% of LC students failed OL Maths last year.

km79

any word from the union......

Random sample

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Potentially. I notice in the guide to calculated grades it says 'will be awarded a mark'. Not a grade. So if you have 4 students in the H6 category and the SEC adjust the marks downwards in line with normal outcomes for the school then presumably the ones with the lowest mark could get moved into the H7 category.

I'm not sure why there would be a safeguard against failing. I understand that a teacher is now making this prediction rather than it being assessed on the student's performance in the exam so it could be the difference between entry to college or not (e.g. failing maths), but there won't be a 0% failure rate. That isn't in line with normal outcomes. 11% of LC students failed OL Maths last year.

I think it would be unfair to fail in a situation where the teacher thought they could pass though. I think it’s the borderlines that will be tough for us.

rainbowtrout

Random sample wrote: »

I think it would be unfair to fail in a situation where the teacher thought they could pass though. I think it’s the borderlines that will be tough for us.

It's probably an easier call for someone who was getting 35 for you to say they would probably get the 40 (or higher) on the day. What about the student getting 21? They can't all be passed for the sake of it.

Millem

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/74043/96076aa3e16240cc93e2a56a1ea94d75.pdf#page=1

km79

Millem wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/74043/96076aa3e16240cc93e2a56a1ea94d75.pdf#page=1

Done deal so

Union update?

Choochtown

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/

Point 8 on this states that

"students will have access to the school-based data"

and also that

"schools should not disclose the estimated marks or rank orders to students"

Mardy Bum

Choochtown wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/

Point 8 on this states that

"students will have access to the school-based data"

and also that

"schools should not disclose the estimated marks or rank orders to students"

They copied the English plan and made it sound like they have been slaving for months.

Multipass

Any ideas what will happen in the case of a student taking an extra subject outside of school (and consequently ditching one in-school subject). We can prove that classes were taken on saturdays, and he sat the mock exam and did well, but that’s all there is to go on.

Comer1

From DES guide to calculated grades

In the case of coursework that has already been completed, a teacher’s overall estimate should incorporate the mark they think that this coursework would have achieved if it had been marked in the usual way.

DCG Projects were submitted in February. Will we be expected to estimate the grades on these as with other coursework not already submitted, or will they be marked as normal? My guess is that because the SEC cannot be involved (if that's correct) we will have to calculate the marks ourselves.

Any ideas?

Polka_Dot

Any ideas what provisions would/could be made for students who were hoping to sit an exam in their native language, e.g. Polish, Arabic, Russian? Most students who sit these exams wouldn't have a formal teacher.

Multipass

Polka_Dot wrote: »

Any ideas what provisions would/could be made for students who were hoping to sit an exam in their native language, e.g. Polish, Arabic, Russian? Most students who sit these exams wouldn't have a formal teacher.

If it’s a foreign language exam, but is their native language, I’d imagine top marks are a given

History Queen

Also didn't hear what happens in cases where students are school refusers or have substitute teachers.

Are projects/practicals taken in to account if students choose to sit the exams?

History Queen

Multipass wrote: »

If it’s a foreign language exam, but is their native language, I’d imagine top marks are a given

I doubt that. All native students don't get top marks in English or Irish here?

rainbowtrout

Multipass wrote: »

If it’s a foreign language exam, but is their native language, I’d imagine top marks are a given

No, students generally score well in their native language but a H1/H2 is not a given. Plenty are well able to speak it but not necessarily write the language correctly.

joe40

Mardy Bum wrote: »

They copied the English plan and made it sound like they have been slaving for months.

Yeah very similar to the UK. We had to assign a predicted grade for each and then rank each pupil within that grade. For example if you predict 5 pupils in your class with a grade A you the rank each of those pupils from 1 to 5.
I presume it is because if the centre is deemed to generous the lower ranked pupils will be downgraded.

Treppen

Multipass wrote: »

Any ideas what will happen in the case of a student taking an extra subject outside of school (and consequently ditching one in-school subject). We can prove that classes were taken on saturdays, and he sat the mock exam and did well, but that’s all there is to go on.

I think that should come under the same remit as 'students transferring from other schools'

km79

I think the best thing we can do is just log out for the weekend

We might even get an update from the union over that time if we are lucky

jimmytwotimes 2013

I've not read rest of pages but am reading guidelines here

The 40% that was going towards the orals has been taken back?

randylonghorn

km79 wrote: »

any word from the union......

Tbh, fk the union.

They haven't contributed any thing useful so far.

Except maybe lobbying for some kinda state cert at JC.

And in fairness, while a union member, not a 2L union member, so maybe I should hold my tongue.

But ... ok, not impressed. I will leave it at that.

Random sample

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I've not read rest of pages but am reading guidelines here

The 40% that was going towards the orals has been taken back?

The candidate will get the grade their teacher expected them to get instead of the full 40%, yes.

That arrangement was assuming there would be a written summer exam.