Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

How will this full process be done and dusted in 3 weeks?

It won’t
Results not going out to mid August tells a tale
We won’t be on our summer holidays for a while yet

Neleven

km79 wrote: »

It won’t
Results not going out to mid August tells a tale
We won’t be on our summer holidays for a while yet

The document states that the results have to be submitted by the principal by end of May. Completely nuts with all the assessments for other years, especially 3rd yrs.

km79

Neleven wrote: »

The document states that the results have to be submitted by the principal by end of May. Completely nuts with all the assessments for other years, especially 3rd yrs.

Oh sorry i missed that

coillsaille

Neleven wrote: »

The document states that the results have to be submitted by the principal by end of May. Completely nuts with all the assessments for other years, especially 3rd yrs.

It says *ideally by the end of May.
It will come down to individual principals and how awkward they are by my reading of the guidelines. An awkward one who returns grades to faculties could drag the process into June.

Neleven

coillsaille wrote: »

It says *ideally by the end of May.
It will come down to individual principals and how awkward they are by my reading of the guidelines. An awkward one who returns grades to faculties could drag the process into June.

It’ll be interesting to see whether it’ll be treated as the deadline by individual schools. The ETBs might be less flexible than secondary schools. Either way it does suggest it’ll happen in a bit of a rush, especially as departments need to coordinate and agree rankings.

km79

https://www.asti.ie/news/standing-committee-discusses-leaving-cert-announcement/

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

https://www.asti.ie/news/standing-committee-discusses-leaving-cert-announcement/

Not giving much away are they...

Greensoup

It looks like the Class ranking in order will be worse than the grading. Does it mean if you have 15 H4 grades in a subject you have to rank them 1 to 15 with numbers 14-15 being your opinion on who is scraping the h4. That will allow sec bump those lads down to H5 to match their bell curve if they need or bump 1-2 up to H3?

r93kaey5p2izun

https://www.tui.ie/news/tui-to-engage-with-calculated-grades-but-system-must-be-fair-and-equitable-and-professional-integrity-of-teachers-must-be-protected.13746.html

acequion

Maybe it's because my field is English and languages and I'm in no way mathematical or statistical minded but I don't get why it has to be so complicated.

Could someone give an idea what exactly we'll all be doing. Ok I'm here in my house with whatever records I have for my class and a pretty accurate idea in my head what grade they're at. I can also rank them.Let's say my several other colleagues [we're a big school] can do likewise. Why does that necessitate a big meeting between us? I know my own students but not my colleagues' so what do we discuss? Surely we don't have to compete with each other for our students' grades?

And why wouldn't it be all completed by the end of May?

km79

[quote="acequion;Surely we don't have to compete with each other for our students' grades?
?[/quote]

Sadly yes
I’m in a big subject dept too
This will be a horrible process

Greensoup

acequion wrote: »

Maybe it's because my field is English and languages and I'm in no way mathematical or statistical minded but I don't get why it has to be so complicated.

Could someone give an idea what exactly we'll all be doing. Ok I'm here in my house with whatever records I have for my class and a pretty accurate idea in my head what grade they're at. I can also rank them.Let's say my several other colleagues [we're a big school] can do likewise. Why does that necessitate a big meeting between us? I know my own students but not my colleagues' so what do we discuss? Surely we don't have to compete with each other for our students' grades?

And why wouldn't it be all completed by the end of May?

I COULD BE WRONG but it ooks like class order ranking will be the big issue. You give grades H1-H7 that’s fine but then it looks like you have to rank the class in order. So if you have 18 doing physics in your school. You give them their grades but then you have to rank them in order. So your only H1 is ranked 1 top of class group, but if you give 3 H2s you have to rank them 2,3,4....the sec could move the student ranked 4 down to h3 to suit their bell curve stats. It will get even messier down along you could have 4 H3s class order ranked 5,6,7,8 whoever you rank 8 could get dumped to H4. Imagine the H4s in a school. You could have 10 of them all fairly similar and have to rank them 9-18 of your class. 16-18 could get bumped down to H5 to suit national average. This if correct is nightmare stuff. I might be wrong but it says in document you rank your class in order after grading. English and maths would be crazy stuff.

man_no_plan

Greensoup wrote: »

Looks like class order ranking will be the big issue. You give grades H1-H7 that’s fine but then it looks like you have to rank the class in order. So if you have 18 doing physics in your school. You give them their grades but then you have to rank them in order. So your only H1 is ranked 1 top of class group, but if you give 3 H2s you have to rank them 2,3,4....the sec could move the student ranked 4 down to h3 to suit their bell curve stats. It will get even messier down along you could have 4 H3s class order ranked 5,6,7,8 whoever you rank 8 could get dumped to H4. Imagine the H4s in a school. You could have 10 of them all fairly similar and have to rank them 9-18 of your class. 16-18 could get bumped down to H5 to suit national average. This if correct is nightmare stuff. I might be wrong but it says in document you rank your class in order after grading. English and maths would be crazy stuff.

You give them a percentage score. Not a grade

km79

Greensoup wrote: »

Looks like class order ranking will be the big issue. You give grades H1-H7 that’s fine but then it looks like you have to rank the class in order. So if you have 18 doing physics in your school. You give them their grades but then you have to rank them in order. So your only H1 is ranked 1 top of class group, but if you give 3 H2s you have to rank them 2,3,4....the sec could move the student ranked 4 down to h3 to suit their bell curve stats. It will get even messier down along you could have 4 H3s class order ranked 5,6,7,8 whoever you rank 8 could get dumped to H4. Imagine the H4s in a school. You could have 10 of them all fairly similar and have to rank them 9-18 of your class. 16-18 could get bumped down to H5 to suit national average. This if correct is nightmare stuff. I might be wrong but it says in document you rank your class in order after grading. English and maths would be crazy stuff.

This is exactly what it Means and will be nightmare stuff
How can you argue one H1 is better than another when you don’t know the other student
The reality of all of this is slowly dawning on everyone
Horrible

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

You give them a percentage score. Not a grade

So we have to predict the actual PERCENTAGE
Wow
Worse it is indeed getting
That is ridiculous

I think student will get 76%
Why not 77%?
He didn’t have his homework done once in 5th year .

acequion

HELP!! I've just spotted in my inbox a mail from a student who never came to school, never sat any exams but now wants to do the 7 pieces of work assigned since the closure!!

Am I right that work since the closure is not to be counted?? And surely kids cannot all decide now to go handing in homework due age ago???

Jesus, it's only getting started!!!

Greensoup

km79 wrote: »

This is exactly what it Means and will be nightmare stuff
How can you argue one H1 is better than another when you don’t know the other student
The reality of all of this is slowly dawning on everyone
Horrible

As man_no_plan says it’s a % you give it would make it easier to rank... but why have ranking if it’s a % grade. One lad gets 64% the other 67% they don’t need a rank? And how do you get an exact % for a test they didn’t do? A least saying H4 covers a ballpark result you’d think they get instead of saying I think he’ll get 63%. Fair confusing.

jimmytwotimes 2013

acequion wrote: »

HELP!! I've just spotted in my inbox a mail from a student who never came to school, never sat any exams but now wants to do the 7 pieces of work assigned since the closure!!

Am I right that work since the closure is not to be counted?? And surely kids cannot all decide now to go handing in homework due age ago???

Jesus, it's only getting started!!!

This is happening in a good few cases

Panic all round. Grading only on work, exams, up to March 12 anyway. Makes no difference.

The long and short of it is. You rank your class in order of merit, grade them based on your records of their performance and how, you think as a professional, they would have fared in the actual LC.

Edit- what's daft about the process (many daft things), we're asked to assess what a student wud get in the regular LC, as in some students leaving content out, taking chances on questions etc, pressure of many exams etc.

However if they do the actual paper, in one subject, with 2/3 months preparation they'll prob exceed the assessed grade as its a different set of circumstances and the student would probably not leave work out in preparation for an isolated exam. Hence possibly making the assessed grade look way off.

So many variables, just sticking to previous performance through senior cycle is about the only way to assess it.

The "guidelines" will be interesting

acequion

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

This is happening in a good few cases

Panic all round. Grading only on work, exams, up to March 12 anyway. Makes no difference.

The long and short of it is. You rank your CLASS in order of merit, grade them based on your records of their performance and how, you think as a professional, they would have fared in the actual LC.

So if the student were to send those 7 pieces of work and if I were to correct them, they could not be counted for the grade calculation, is that correct? Or a feckin grey area?

r93kaey5p2izun

I think the document says that it's up to the teacher whether or not to count work since closure, but you should consider any changes in standard to be most likely due to the situation rather than being meaningful, but you're not precluded from using that work. So basically, don't count it unless it just confirms what you already knew, but if it doesn't then you can still use it if you want to, it's all on you. Clarity, apparently.

jimmytwotimes 2013

acequion wrote: »

So if the student were to send those 7 pieces of work and if I were to correct them, they could not be counted for the grade calculation, is that correct? Or a feckin grey area?

After March 12 does not count. I would presume assignment work would be different to a students exam capability, which is what we're assessing

r93kaey5p2izun

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

After March 12 does not count. I would presume assignment work would be different to a students exam capability, which is what we're assessing

That's not what the guidelines say though!

acequion

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I think the document says that it's up to the teacher whether or not to count work since closure, but you should consider any changes in standard to be most likely due to the situation rather than being meaningful, but you're not precluded from using that work. So basically, don't count it unless it just confirms what you already knew, but if it doesn't then you can still use it if you want to, it's all on you. Clarity, apparently.

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn,thanks for your reply especially at this late hour of the night.

But it's clearly a grey area. Because if there isn't a cut off point pupils could send in an avalanche of overdue homework which would be a nightmare for the teacher. I even see on my Google classroom page that a load of them have this evening sent in overdue stuff.

There absolutely has to be a cut off point.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

That's not what the guidelines say though!

They can't count it due to disadvantage at home, broadband etc

acequion

And thanks to jimmytwotimes 2013, only saw your reply now.

I really am very worried. I feel that the cut off point should be today. Therefore work arriving after today should not be counted. Kids sending in overdue homework from weeks ago is making a mockery of the system.

Plus the volume of work on the teacher,in certain subjects, would be overwhelming.

r93kaey5p2izun

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

They can't count it due to disadvantage at home, broadband etc

I think the document is basically saying that the work since March can't be used to disadvantage a student, but it can be considered as evidence of them improving as they often do after the mocks.

I don't think it would be right to accept any further work now. I don't think you could stand over that. I think it would be best just to ignore everything since closure, and just allow for the normal improvement that happens as courses are finished and more focus is put on practicing exam questions.

I think it would definitely be best not to engage any more with them at all until your school at least makes a decision on what to do.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I think the document is basically saying that the work since March can't be used to disadvantage a student, but it can be considered as evidence of them improving as they often do after the mocks.

I don't think it would be right to accept any further work now. I don't think you could stand over that. I think it would be best just to ignore everything since closure, and just allow for the normal improvement that happens as courses are finished and more focus is put on practicing exam questions.

I think it would definitely be best not to engage any more with them at all until your school at least makes a decision on what to do.

Shur googled answers wouldn't be a sign of much so I'd assume most will disregard. Our engagement was below 30% so they must all be sweating now

Plus if online engagement is taken as a sign of improvement, it could disadvantage somebody else by knocking them down the ranking

acequion

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Shur googled answers wouldn't be a sign of much so I'd assume most will disregard. Our engagement was below 30% so they must all be sweating now

Plus if online engagement is taken as a sign of improvement, it could disadvantage somebody else by knocking them down the ranking

So do we base our estimate on work prior to the closure?

r93kaey5p2izun

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Shur googled answers wouldn't be a sign of much so I'd assume most will disregard. Our engagement was below 30% so they must all be sweating now

Plus if online engagement is taken as a sign of improvement, it could disadvantage somebody else by knocking them down the ranking

As I said, I don't think work since March should count. But I think the usual improvements of standards should be allowed for whether they engaged or not. All I'm saying is that the document is vague on it. It does not rule it out, merely advises "caution in interpreting what has happened since schools closed".

Treppen

Just use your discretion. Nothing wrong with students submitting work at any stage before school shuts end of may.
For all intents and purposes those students might not want to get calculated grades and intend sitting the exam.
So you still have to teach out the course and accept submissions like you always did.
If they really want to play games then just give them a tonne of corrections to be done on the load of with they're giving you. Insist the corrections are done by gently asking "before you had in any more did you get a chance to have a look at my comments and make my suggested corrections?".

But your point is correct.
Ability and attainment are two very different animals.
I've taught lazy C students who had Mensa level iq, and students who's ability suggests they are very week but they slog for the B.
I think it's only fair to cut off consideration at march 13th for all.
Because of class/school ranking; By looking favourably on one Johnny come lately you are potentially bumping down a great student who might have been caring for their siblings while both parents are working in healthcare and have caught Covid (this has happened btw).