Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

Bobtheman

The logical thing is to stick to school exams/mocks.
Ranking seems very difficult outside of the criteria above

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

The logical thing is to stick to school exams/mocks.
Ranking seems very difficult outside of the criteria above

I think the ranking has to be done to ensure some type of movement of students up and down!

Treppen

Some really bad advice from Emma O Kelly

"During that briefing I received a text message from a parent, "can my daughter stop studying?" she asked.

My answer was "yes"."

There's 3 weeks left.
Finish out the course.
Then say goodbye to your teacher.
Should you be sitting exams do you think you can just pick up from where you left off with no teacher?
Junior certs got caught out , now some have school tests. Never know if their grades will come into play again!

Inspector Coptoor

We got word to cease teaching as of yesterday.

I had given my LC classes a lot of work to do over the week.
I contacted them on Teams to say we were now done and not to submit any work.

Students and their parents have been asked not to contact their LC teachers in relation to work submitted or grades.

Work done pre March 12th should be weighted higher than any work done thereafter.

Your professional judgement does not have to just include 4 or 5 house exam results.
It’s a judgement call on how the student would do in the exam in June - not where they were back in February.

It’s going to a be tough process to get through for very large departments in big schools and for that reason, IMO, it’s right that we should spend time on the rankings and no longer teach our LCs.

Won’t be too bad in smaller subjects with one class in a year group.

Bobtheman

Treppen wrote: »

I think the ranking has to be done to ensure some type of movement of students up and down!

But how do you rank a group of students who hardly do any work??? I have a small group of LC ordinary English. Half never do homework but within that half there are a few who have ability and did really well in the mocks. I'm talking two grades up from school exams
The only objective system I could arrive at is to use the following:
JC results
School Exams -5th/6th year
Mocks

That's it -to use anything else is impossible. I didn't do any class tests because it was pointless. Attendance fluctuated. If I got them to do work in class/switch off their fxxxx phones I was doing well.

km79

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/expect-litigation-from-chaos-it-cant-be-done-fairly-39192568.html

Here we go again.
"Student voice" from the other side

Comer1

I think there is value in giving percentage as opposed to grades (difficult as that will prove to be). If you have a large class and are awarding 10 H2s you will need to assign a percentage based on your class ranking so that those students at the margins are the ones bumped up or down when the department applies it national bell curve magic to your results.

Not very fair and puts more pressure of difficult decisions on teachers but I can see why they want it.

km79

7.2.1 What happens during the alignment process?
A consultative engagement that is inclusive of all the relevant teachers is put in place.
The alignment process should be designed in a way that enables group reflection and
discussion by the teachers of a particular subject (the subject alignment group) with a
focus on ensuring that the process of arriving at estimated marks and rank ordering has
been correctly applied and that marks have been properly aligned.
7.2.3 What is the next step in the alignment process?
Following the consultative engagement, each teacher reviews his/her class group data
sets (i.e. estimated marks and rankings), adjusts if necessary, and finalises a completed
estimated mark form for each student in the class group. These individual student forms
and the completed rank order form for the class group are submitted to the school
principal through the subject alignment group as the product of the subject alignment
process.
It should be noted that in the course of the process only the class teacher can change the
estimated mark or rank order for a class group.

Having reread that i now do NOT think we have to "compete" with other teacher's classes for grades
It seems to be simply a double check
It is a bit crazy though
I have 2 classes for same subject
I have potentially quite a few more top graded in one than the other
But a lower grade will rank higher in the second class!

TheValeyard

km79 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/expect-litigation-from-chaos-it-cant-be-done-fairly-39192568.html

Here we go again.
"Student voice" from the other side

I think they just want to be given their course regardless what decision is made!

Bobtheman

When will this "work" be done?

joebloggs32

km79 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/expect-litigation-from-chaos-it-cant-be-done-fairly-39192568.html

Here we go again.
"Student voice" from the other side

There is the voice of reason from the first girl. She hasn't listened to the noise and waffle from the ISSU. The validity of their survey is quite shaky.
The government should have at least waited at least until the beginning of June to see how the state of play is regarding the virus. Imagine if we manage to have the country virus free by the middle of summer. The rates of new infections appear to be contracting fast now.
The money the legal profession will make out of this will make the tribunals seem like a bake sale at break time.

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

When will this "work" be done?

When we are finished teaching , correcting, subject planning for next year , organizing online awards days , croke park evenings and junior cycle grading

So mid June is my guess

Newbie20

Anyone know if students are still allowed to change level? I have a student that had been struggling all year, bone lazy, didn’t engage with the work online at all. He contacted me once to say that he would drop down. I told him to check with career guidance teacher first to make sure he wouldn’t be snookering himself in term of college. I never heard back from him after, not sure he followed through. He would definitely be best off dropping, no doubt about that but am I now in a position that I can’t say anything / make any recommendations. Or even if I was allowed to would it be too late anyway?

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

When we are finished teaching , correcting, subject planning for next year , organizing online awards days , croke park evenings and junior cycle grading

So mid June is my guess

End of May is mentioned in one of the documents and that's the stage when the principal would have signed off on them so you'll have met your Dept colleagues by then too

"A guide to calculated grades for Leaving Cert 2020" page 9, point No. 9

jimmytwotimes 2013

Newbie20 wrote: »

Anyone know if students are still allowed to change level? I have a student that had been struggling all year, bone lazy, didn’t engage with the work online at all. He contacted me once to say that he would drop down. I told him to check with career guidance teacher first to make sure he wouldn’t be snookering himself in term of college. I never heard back from him after, not sure he followed through. He would definitely be best off dropping, no doubt about that but am I now in a position that I can’t say anything / make any recommendations. Or even if I was allowed to would it be too late anyway?

I contacted the school on this point. I'm awaiting confirmation, I would guess every student would have to confirm their level as they could have taken a pass paper on the day if they wished

Millionaire only not

schools have predicted grades done for students attending Uk colleges. Upwards of 3000 students annually, will the school have to go with these predicted results they gave and signed off on?

man_no_plan

All this talk about predicted grades in the UK.

They do their actual exams afterwards. That's the point everyone seems to miss.

It's not predicted grades no exams.

Random sample

Millionaire only not wrote: »

schools have predicted grades done for students attending Uk colleges. Upwards of 3000 students annually, will the school have to go with these predicted results they gave and signed off on?

At what stage of the year we’re they done? If assessments have taken place since those grades were given, then they would have to be taken into account too.

Consuelano

I am bowled over reading these posts. It appears many of you have accepted that this is the “plan” and are actually considering following through with it.

Just to remind everybody, this “plan” was arrived at due to political pressure and a media frenzy. In the midst of everything, the voice of teachers has been ignored. All we’ve heard regarding the teaching unions is that they had “safety concerns” for teachers, were the exams to take place in July. That’s no surprise. Everybody has safety concerns over everything. We have heard nothing more. Nothing about whether teachers would accept the task of grading their own students. Nothing about the inevitable backlash this will have on teachers.

It's worth quoting Joe McHugh here who stated there was “too much inherent bias” in a system where teachers graded their own students.

Under GDPR, students will be entitled to see the original grades awarded by their teachers.

Be under absolutely no illusion here – you will be expected to fail some of your students, and they will know you failed them. If you think you can award them all decent grades and be done with it, you’re mistaken. Your grades and rankings will be returned to you as many times as it takes until YOU get them right, ie. fail some students. There will be no teacher discretion in the awarding of marks. Everything will require absolute proof. And you will be bullied by the powers that be until they deem the grades you’re awarding acceptable. Were you consulted on this “plan”? Was your voice heard in all of this?

If ever we needed the union to step up to the plate, it is now. We need firstly to have our voices heard in all of this, and to actually be asked if we are willing to go along with what will unquestionably come back to bite us.

Do not believe for a second that this will not have any bearing on future decisions or that it will not be regarded as precedent. If it happens, it will be a major factor in Leaving Cert reform which was imminent even before the pandemic.

Just like with the JC, we have arrived where we are due to a snap decision that came off the back of media and political pressure. That’s just not acceptable. We must take a step back here and consider the full implications of what this means for us as individuals, for our profession, and for education as a whole in this country.

Greensoup

I’m still trying to get my head around the class ranking. You will have a lot of students around H4-H5 who are all similar ability wise and work wise. How do you rank them...why would you say this lad is ranked 14th and this one 19th in the class when there is nothing really between them.

km79

Consuelano wrote: »

I am bowled over reading these posts. It appears many of you have accepted that this is the “plan” and are actually considering following through with it.

Just to remind everybody, this “plan” was arrived at due to political pressure and a media frenzy. In the midst of everything, the voice of teachers has been ignored. All we’ve heard regarding the teaching unions is that they had “safety concerns” for teachers, were the exams to take place in July. That’s no surprise. Everybody has safety concerns over everything. We have heard nothing more. Nothing about whether teachers would accept the task of grading their own students. Nothing about the inevitable backlash this will have on teachers.

It's worth quoting Joe McHugh here who stated there was “too much inherent bias” in a system where teachers graded their own students.

Under GDPR, students will be entitled to see the original grades awarded by their teachers.

Be under absolutely no illusion here – you will be expected to fail some of your students, and they will know you failed them. If you think you can award them all decent grades and be done with it, you’re mistaken. Your grades and rankings will be returned to you as many times as it takes until YOU get them right, ie. fail some students. There will be no teacher discretion in the awarding of marks. Everything will require absolute proof. And you will be bullied by the powers that be until they deem the grades you’re awarding acceptable. Were you consulted on this “plan”? Was your voice heard in all of this?

If ever we needed the union to step up to the plate, it is now. We need firstly to have our voices heard in all of this, and to actually be asked if we are willing to go along with what will unquestionably come back to bite us.

Do not believe for a second that this will not have any bearing on future decisions or that it will not be regarded as precedent. If it happens, it will be a major factor in Leaving Cert reform which was imminent even before the pandemic.

Just like with the JC, we have arrived where we are due to a snap decision that came off the back of media and political pressure. That’s just not acceptable. We must take a step back here and consider the full implications of what this means for us as individuals, for our profession, and for education as a whole in this country.

My standing committee rep emailed me late last night to his credit. I replied this morning. They are meeting later today . Make your voices heard.
This is a done deal make no mistake. The govt published everything ahead of union agreement for a reason. Unless they have already agreed of course......

Inspector Coptoor

Millionaire only not wrote: »

schools have predicted grades done for students attending Uk colleges. Upwards of 3000 students annually, will the school have to go with these predicted results they gave and signed off on?

Definitely not.
Sure they were done back in November if I remember correctly.

Bobtheman

I just texted the President. My own feeling is that students will not find out what you gave them. It will be a collective decision of various Subjec departments subjected to review by Principals.
If the ASTI agrees to a direct link between you and the teacher-its a joke but I cant see that happening for a variety of reasons. Bell curves etc plus even the government knows that any system that allows a teacher to just give a mark without some collective checks will be a joke.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Projects, practicals and orals if a student decides to sit the papers.

Has detail been released on this?

Do they go back to granting the music practical mark and language oral mark?

Do students come in over weekends to use practical room facilities?

If they grant these marks, there will be a flood of students going to sit papers to inflate grade.

For example, if you really wanted primary teaching and they give the 40% for Irish oral, you'd nearly hang on for the sake of a year as youd have a graat chance to get the 60% required for primary

Rosita

Consuelano wrote: »

Just to remind everybody, this “plan” was arrived at due to political pressure and a media frenzy.

It is only fair to also remind people that this is only an opinion. It's thrown in here as if it's uncontestable fact. It's just possible also that public health advice played a role.

acequion

Consuelano wrote: »

I am bowled over reading these posts. It appears many of you have accepted that this is the “plan” and are actually considering following through with it.

Just to remind everybody, this “plan” was arrived at due to political pressure and a media frenzy. In the midst of everything, the voice of teachers has been ignored. All we’ve heard regarding the teaching unions is that they had “safety concerns” for teachers, were the exams to take place in July. That’s no surprise. Everybody has safety concerns over everything. We have heard nothing more. Nothing about whether teachers would accept the task of grading their own students. Nothing about the inevitable backlash this will have on teachers.

It's worth quoting Joe McHugh here who stated there was “too much inherent bias” in a system where teachers graded their own students.

We
Under GDPR, students will be entitled to see the original grades awarded by their teachers.

Be under absolutely no illusion here – you will be expected to fail some of your students, and they will know you failed them. If you think you can award them all decent grades and be done with it, you’re mistaken. Your grades and rankings will be returned to you as many times as it takes until YOU get them right, ie. fail some students. There will be no teacher discretion in the awarding of marks. Everything will require absolute proof. And you will be bullied by the powers that be until they deem the grades you’re awarding acceptable. Were you consulted on this “plan”? Was your voice heard in all of this?

If ever we needed the union to step up to the plate, it is now. We need firstly to have our voices heard in all of this, and to actually be asked if we are willing to go along with what will unquestionably come back to bite us.

Do not believe for a second that this will not have any bearing on future decisions or that it will not be regarded as precedent. If it happens, it will be a major factor in Leaving Cert reform which was imminent even before the pandemic.

Just like with the JC, we have arrived where we are due to a snap decision that came off the back of media and political pressure. That’s just not acceptable. We must take a step back here and consider the full implications of what this means for us as individuals, for our profession, and for education as a whole in this country.

Agree completely Consuelano but remember that for the past ten years teachers have been frogmarched into doing things unthinkable only a decade ago, all forced upon us in various emergencies and unions have been at best, damage litigation. Keep whipping a dog and eventually he puts up his backside to be whipped some more. It truly is a terrible state of affairs but teachers feel voiceless and I reckon find it easier to be whipped than to protest.

That said, I do agree that we must bombard the unions, the reps, president, vice president, general secretary whoever is in any position of influence!. Literally plague them, get in their faces because they certainly need to do a lot better.

The implications of the precedents being set going forward are staggering.

Newbie20

I also was contacted by the union rep in the area to be fair for comment and have e-mailed him back complaining about the lack of teacher voice in all this. I also asked why the unions didn’t stall the government until they had a chance to ask the teachers what they thought. They knew this was coming and should have sent a text out to every union member asking them to vote. We heard all about 79% of students wanted no Leaving but we didn’t hear a single percentage about what teachers thought was best.

If anyone wants to have a voice you need to get onto them today, they are having another meeting this evening.

However, unfortunately people are talking about this as if it’s a done deal because it is a done deal. I think it’s shocking too but if theirs one thing we have learned from all of this and in recent years is that the government don’t care what the teachers think. Unions have a bit of a voice and students do. That’s it.

Rosita

[quote="Consuelano;113388609"

Under GDPR, students will be entitled to see the original grades awarded by their teachers.

[/quote]

This is a bit dramatic. Students will already know the results they got in previous exams anyway as they'd gave been handed back to them. A teacher's ultimate decision should reflect these results by and large. Controversy will emerge only if teachers deviate from what the data says.

acequion

Newbie20 wrote: »

I also was contacted by the union rep in the area to be fair for comment and have e-mailed him back complaining about the lack of teacher voice in all this. I also asked why the unions didn’t stall the government until they had a chance to ask the teachers what they thought. They knew this was coming and should have sent a text out to every union member asking them to vote. We heard all about 79% of students wanted no Leaving but we didn’t hear a single percentage about what teachers thought was best.

If anyone wants to have a voice you need to get onto them today, they are having another meeting this evening.

However, unfortunately people are talking about this as if it’s a done deal because it is a done deal. I think it’s shocking too but if theirs one thing we have learned from all of this and in recent years is that the government don’t care what the teachers think. Unions have a bit of a voice and students do. That’s it.

Unions are the official voice of the teachers. But it's the responsibility of every single teacher to make sure his voice is part of that official voice.

Choochtown

Why can't every student who has an under-subscribed 3rd level course as their 1st choice on their CAO form be just accepted onto that course?
This would take a substantial percentage of students out of the predicted grades circus and avoid students accessing information that tells them they were ranked 29th out of 30 as that information would no longer exist.
The points system is just to sort out who gets what course (supply and demand) so it's not really relevant if an undersubscribed 3rd level course (of which there are many) requires 500 points or 100.