Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

deiseindublin

km79 wrote: »

Wait until the campaign for next years Leaving Cert cohort begins

In fairness to current 5th years, they're screwed, and in much worse a predicament than current LCs.

deiseindublin

I wonder will they need any of the Chief Advisors or Advising Examiners to help with the process this year, or will it be all data crunching?

randylonghorn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The only way for the DES to counter this is to be ruthless with regard to the last three years worth of stats.

I see where you're coming from, Mardy, but that too has the potential to skew things.

Like the teacher on here earlier who said she has had 2-3 years of average to good students, from whom the highest mark she was expecting was a H2 ... and that's what they got.

This year she has 2 bright, hard-working students who she fully expected to achieve a H1.

Should they be pulled down based on the results from the last couple of years?

Mardy Bum

randylonghorn wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, Mardy, but that too has the potential to skew things.

Like the teacher on here earlier who said she has had 2-3 years of average to good students, from whom the highest mark she was expecting was a H2 ... and that's what they got.

This year she has 2 bright, hard-working students who she fully expected to achieve a H1.

Should they be pulled down based on the results from the last couple of years?

I'm not saying it is right. I'm saying it is the only solution when you build a system as brutally flawed as this.

Bobtheman

The whole thing is farcical. Flip flops
I will crunch all the results on my school system that's it and nothing more.
Whatever figure comes out is the figure.
Let them do what they want after that.
To assume logic in the the education system is illogical.
We fund private schools.
We insist on foreign Nationals learning a language they would not hear spoken on the street from one year to the next
We teach wellness and allow off licences to remain open while 90% of other businesses go to the wall.
I could go on ...

randylonghorn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'm not saying it is right. I'm saying it is the only solution when you build a system as brutally flawed as this.

Lol, we'll agree on the "brutally flawed" anyway!

chocoholic999

I intentionally gave my students an old mock paper. Corrected them myself. I’ve been an examiner with SEC for years. From my experience all students go up from mocks. So I’m intending to add 15% to each result and will see what they come out as. Don’t know if I’ll get away with such a simple process but I think it might be a fair as I can get.

Newbie20

chocoholic999 wrote: »

I intentionally gave my students an old mock paper. Corrected them myself. I’ve been an examiner with SEC for years. From my experience all students go up from mocks. So I’m intending to add 15% to each result and will see what they come out as. Don’t know if I’ll get away with such a simple process but I think it might be a fair as I can get.

Did you give them an old paper the time of the mocks or give them one since lockdown? Those results will turn out to be priceless for you now because you will know that they couldn’t have seen the exam. Most of my mocks seemed about right but I’d be a bit suspicious of a couple of them. Makes it very hard to decide whether to take it into consideration or not.

chocoholic999

Newbie20 wrote: »

Did you give them an old paper the time of the mocks or give them one since lockdown? Those results will turn out to be priceless for you now because you will know that they couldn’t have seen the exam. Most of my mocks seemed about right but I’d be a bit suspicious of a couple of them. Makes it very hard to decide whether to take it into consideration or not.

I gave the old mock at the time of the mocks as I know the real one was online. I just did some calculations and I think grades will come out higher than my averages for last three years. My class are the strongest I’ve had in a while though so it’s frustrating. I think I’ll just leave it until we get communication from school, maybe we’ll get more guidance.

Jajadog

Chocoholic99 does that mean you are giving an estimated Grade based solely on their mock result?? I would have thought it would be much fairer to take all past exams, class tests etc into account. I know you gave your class an old mock exam but most mocks were leaked online this year.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Mocks are leaked every year. I won't be using them at all

I didn't correct them either so can't stand over them

km79

This system relies on all teachers in all schools following the same guidelines

This is why it will not work

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

This system relies on all teachers in all schools following the same guidelines

This is why it will not work

Yet, the guidelines allow for a student you might feel would rise to challenge in the last few months of 6th year, which covers all the crammers with ability

Bobtheman

Jajadog wrote: »

Chocoholic99 does that mean you are giving an estimated Grade based solely on their mock result?? I would have thought it would be much fairer to take all past exams, class tests etc into account. I know you gave your class an old mock exam but most mocks were leaked online this year.

Mark my word-individual solo runs like what you have outlined above wont be allowed. Not to doubt your integrity but there will be order placed on it. A one size fits all system. Beause otherwise it will be chaos. No make up your own minds.

chocoholic999

Jajadog wrote: »

Chocoholic99 does that mean you are giving an estimated Grade based solely on their mock result?? I would have thought it would be much fairer to take all past exams, class tests etc into account. I know you gave your class an old mock exam but most mocks were leaked online this year.

It was just a thought really. I know for definite they hadn’t seen the exam before and I corrected it myself and am confident in my marking. I have loads of test results but I’m not sure chapter results give a good picture. I’ll look at Christmas results and see if there was much variation. Nothing is decided yet, I’m sure we’ll get plenty of guidance.

Bobtheman

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Yet, the guidelines allow for a student you might feel would rise to challenge in the last few months of 6th year, which covers all the crammers with ability

Sense will prevail. It will be what is in the system already not a leap into the future. It will be whats in the computer nothing else.

Bobtheman

chocoholic999 wrote: »

It was just a thought really. I know for definite they hadn’t seen the exam before and I corrected it myself and am confident in my marking. I have loads of test results but I’m not sure chapter results give a good picture. I’ll look at Christmas results and see if there was much variation. Nothing is decided yet, I’m sure we’ll get plenty of guidance.

I really doubt individual records will be allowed. Think it through. The logic of it.

km79

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Yet, the guidelines allow for a student you might feel would rise to challenge in the last few months of 6th year, which covers all the crammers with ability

Agreed
But every student will not rise by one fixed amount decided upon by one teacher
And what about someone on a mock grade of 67
They go up two grades
Some on 70 goes up by one
Someone who missed the mock?

It’s a horrible process we are entering in to
And it will be made worse by teachers insisting on doing their own thing
Especially when those of us who follow the guidelines to the letter won’t even be aware

chocoholic999

Bobtheman wrote: »

Mark my word-individual solo runs like what you have outlined above wont be allowed. Not to doubt your integrity but there will be order placed on it. A one size fits all system. Beause otherwise it will be chaos. No make up your own minds.

I’m sure you’re right. I was just thinking what might work with my class but of course there will have to be some consistency with how grades are calculated. I see mention of JC results being used, I teach an option subject and 80% didn’t do it for junior cert.

joebloggs32

Bobtheman wrote: »

Sense will prevail. It will be what is in the system already not a leap into the future. It will be whats in the computer nothing else.

Can't go all by computer.

A student of mine scored 82 last summer,
54 in October and 90 in the mock

However he was out sick for a couple of weeks at the end of September.
If I only go thr computer then he's nowhere near the A1 because of October results. However I know he had at a really strong chance of the A1

jimmytwotimes 2013

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Can't go all by computer.

A student of mine scored 82 last summer,
54 in October and 90 in the mock

However he was out sick for a couple of weeks at the end of September.
If I only go thr computer then he's nowhere near the A1 because of October results. However I know he had at a really strong chance of the A1

McHugh repeatedly said the teacher knows the students best.

We won't be reduced to averaging term exams and that's clear from the guidelines.

We'll use results as a guideline but if you're at this craic long enough you know who was headed where and the in-house results will provide some support for your opinion. They are not, however, the only thing to guide you, professional judgement also comes into it.

McHugh was pretty clear on this.

chocoholic999

Bobtheman wrote: »

I really doubt individual records will be allowed. Think it through. The logic of it.

So if we think of what results are in the computer. Christmas, summer, mocks and junior cert results. Some schools don’t do Christmas exams in 6th year. Not all students will have junior cert results for that subject. I find it difficult to figure out what system can be implemented that would work the same in all schools.

km79

chocoholic999 wrote: »

So if we think of what results are in the computer. Christmas, summer, mocks and junior cert results. Some schools don’t do Christmas exams in 6th year. Not all students will have junior cert results for that subject. I find it difficult to figure out what system can be implemented that would work the same in all schools.

Junior certs results will not be used by the teacher
Have a look at this
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/#information-for-leaving-cert-students

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

Junior certs results will not be used by the teacher
Have a look at this
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/#information-for-leaving-cert-students

Yep, might be used by the Dept but not the teacher

MrDavid1976

Just an idea but why don’t we just run the exams in July/August as planned/

Bobtheman

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

McHugh repeatedly said the teacher knows the students best.

We won't be reduced to averaging term exams and that's clear from the guidelines.

We'll use results as a guideline but if you're at this craic long enough you know who was headed where and the in-house results will provide some support for your opinion. They are not, however, the only thing to guide you, professional judgement also comes into it.

McHugh was pretty clear on this.

Ah come on. He has flip flopped so many times I cant believe he can stand straight.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Bobtheman wrote: »

Ah come on. He has flip flopped so many times I cant believe he can stand straight.

There is enough in guidelines that allows for professional judgement as well.

If they just wanted grades, they could contact the school and get them to send on the Xmas, summer results etc for students

Millionaire only not

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I'm beginning to think people are unaware how the points system works.
They're under the impression that (using your example) the Head of Veterinary Science in UCD each year decides that "This year we'll only take students over 570 points" and that everyone with >570 points gets in. Rather than the real system where (aside from minimum subject grades) points are effectively allowed float freely and it's demand for limited places on a course that sets the points.

It seems students (and/or parents) also reckon their predicted grade should be their best case scenario grade +1. As far as they are concerned this will bump every single one of them into the courses they wanted, but in normal circumstances probably wouldn't have gotten.

In reality as you say, places are limited and thousands of students might slam into the 600 point ceiling with nothing to differentiate the legitimately entitled to the artificially inflated.

Just to be clear ur saying a 570 point final entry last year could take 600 to secure it this time ?

rainbowtrout

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It should be taken for granted that this will happen in at least a small minority of private schools. These schools exist for a certain class or for those with aspirations of entering it. In the words of Bodie "the system is rigged".

At the same time there will be public schools that will do what they like. This may be down to a teacher going out on a limb and helping their students or it could be top down.

The idea that every member of a profession is angelic is laughable

A much bigger issue than schools or teachers inflating grades purposefully is schools and teachers inflating them unknowingly which will happen in about 80% of cases according to the UCL report.

The only way for the DES to counter this is to be ruthless with regard to the last three years worth of stats.

.

I would give good money to see what grades arrive in to the DES v. the typical grade breakdown in any subject.

babybuilder

What happens if a student in LC hadn't chosen a to drop to ordinary level for the subject? How is a teacher going to know?