Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

History Queen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Just to be clear ur saying a 570 point final entry last year could take 600 to secure it this time ?

Obviously I'm not the original poster you wrre interacting with but theoretically that is possible. If you look at this article from last year some courses can move up (and down) very dramatically from year to year. More dramatically than I realised to be honest. It all comes down to supply and demand essentially.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cao-2019-points-jump-for-science-technology-and-engineering-1.3987130

amacca

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They'll just give everyone top marks and show two fingers to the DES/SEC and say we dare you to pull down their marks.

Or they'll be expected to provide a set of grades like everyone else and their 'school profile' will be used to pull them into line.

Won't their school profile give their students an unfair advantage given that they will have a large cohort of high achievers focused entirely on LC ..a sizeable portion of which are repeating etc ...they will get more of a quota of high grades and a deis school that happens to have a high achieving cohort this year (I've seen the high achieving years ebb and flow in a normal school setting) will be disadvantaged?

Millionaire only not

History Queen wrote: »

Obviously I'm not the original poster you wrre interacting with but theoretically that is possible. If you look at this article from last year some courses can move up (and down) very dramatically from year to year. More dramatically than I realised to be honest. It all comes down to supply and demand essentially.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cao-2019-points-jump-for-science-technology-and-engineering-1.3987130

Well u would imagine if the students are ever so slightly graded up u would expect that 10% increase in courses with small amount of places available

BonsaiKitten

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Just to be clear ur saying a 570 point final entry last year could take 600 to secure it this time ?

Point changes happen every year, normal part of the LC. Just because something was 570 one year doesn't mean it stays at 570 the next.

Have a look at this from last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/will-cao-points-for-my-course-go-up-or-down-here-s-our-best-guess-1.3978769

chocoholic999

I’d imagine the average results in the school for the last few years will be key to all this. Principals will probably be looking closely at this before they sign off on any results. Therefore the ranking may actually be more important than the calculated grade.

Millionaire only not

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Point changes happen every year, normal part of the LC. Just because something was 570 one year doesn't mean it stays at 570 the next.

Have a look at this from last year: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/will-cao-points-for-my-course-go-up-or-down-here-s-our-best-guess-1.3978769

I know that - It’s vet I’m on about 455/466 with last 3 years so like I presume this could be 480 plus now ?

jimmytwotimes 2013

chocoholic999 wrote: »

I’d imagine the average results in the school for the last few years will be key to all this. Principals will probably be looking closely at this before they sign off on any results. Therefore the ranking may actually be more important than the calculated grade.

The ranking is probably the most important I'd say. The Dept will apply that to a school curve if they think the grades are a p1sstake for a school

BonsaiKitten

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I know that - It’s vet I’m on about 455/466 with last 3 years so like I presume this could be 480 plus now ?

That'd be fairly standard fluctuation I think. I remember similar point changes the year I did it anyway.

Dylan94

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

The ranking is probably the most important I'd say. The Dept will apply that to a school curve if they think the grades are a p1sstake for a school

Any what would happen with a school that never had a leaving cert class before?

rainbowtrout

History Queen wrote: »

Obviously I'm not the original poster you wrre interacting with but theoretically that is possible. If you look at this article from last year some courses can move up (and down) very dramatically from year to year. More dramatically than I realised to be honest. It all comes down to supply and demand essentially.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cao-2019-points-jump-for-science-technology-and-engineering-1.3987130

Didn't realise that happened last year. So 4H1s (including HL Maths) and 2H2. Imagine getting 601 in the LC, and still having the lowest entry score in the class. Granted there's not much between students at that level, but it is a bit nuts. Just had a look at it on the UCD website, it says average intake is 50 students.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Dylan94 wrote: »

Any what would happen with a school that never had a leaving cert class before?

Might get away with it in that case if you can get into school system and bump grades

randylonghorn

Millionaire only not wrote: »

I know that - It’s vet I’m on about 455/466 with last 3 years so like I presume this could be 480 plus now ?

In fairness, I wouldn't attempt to predict points any year, especially with the courses with small intakes.

I certainly wouldn't attempt to predict them this year!

It could go up that much, yes ... it could also stay the same or go down!

km79

https://www.asti.ie/news/asti-will-strive-to-improve-fairness-equity-in-calculated-gr/?fbclid=IwAR3k-9eHy9WAHAD6qrMfAzyc3aQAdHhyzeat2K_FBWQXvaE3fdlxHVKNgRM

Of all the issues about predicting grades the one they seem to have pursued is getting 100% awarded for practicals and orals ?????? Won’t that lead to inflated grades in those subjects
Maybe I am missing something?

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

https://www.asti.ie/news/asti-will-strive-to-improve-fairness-equity-in-calculated-gr/?fbclid=IwAR3k-9eHy9WAHAD6qrMfAzyc3aQAdHhyzeat2K_FBWQXvaE3fdlxHVKNgRM

Of all the issues about predicting grades the one they seem to have pursued is getting 100% awarded for practicals and orals ?????? Won’t that lead to inflated grades in those subjects
Maybe I am missing something?

YA that seems a bit strange. Maybe they mean reinstating the 100% for students who do the written exams?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Treppen wrote: »

YA that seems a bit strange. Maybe they mean reinstating the 100% for students who do the written exams?

A large number will go for the written papers if they reinstate this. Irish and languages starting at 40% instead of 0%, like free money

randylonghorn

ASTI wrote:

These concerns include the Minister’s rescinding of his previous decision to award students 100 per cent for orals and certain practical examinations which were to have taken place earlier this year. The ASTI is calling for the Minister not to renege on his granting of full marks to students for orals, practicals, etc., and that this be extended to all Leaving Certificate project/ practical work.

That seems strange to me too.

Surely it just complicates the calculations further?

Though at least they are saying that it should be applied across the board, rather than only to the ones already announced.

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe they mean reinstating the 100% for students who do the written exams?

Oh, maybe.

I suppose unless they are going to hold orals etc. at a later date, then they have to stick with what they said for those opting to take papers ... but apply it across all subjects.

Simplythat

My son applied for a course that jumped 40 points last year. No discernible reason

Simplythat

Ok I am a language teacher, first we were told that our students we’re getting full marks for orals, now we have to assess them on orals, despite. Or seeing them for too months. However, if they sit the yet mythical exam, whenever, they still get full marks for orals . Go figure?

jrmb

Simplythat wrote: »

My son applied for a course that jumped 40 points last year. No discernible reason

That means there were more applicants and/or fewer places than in previous years.

Simplythat

jrmb wrote: »

That means there were more applicants and/or fewer places than in previous years.

There weren’t fewer places. Obviously more applicants, however this course had remained steady for the last 5/6 years as regards points. My point is that it doesn’t matter if it’s pg grades or exAmination grades, course points fluctuate, regardless.

randylonghorn

Yeah, that's unusual, but it can happen.

Why I refuse 100% to predict points!

Simplythat

randylonghorn wrote: »

Yeah, that's unusual, but it can happen.

Why I refuse 100% to predict points!

I don't think it's that unusual in the field it is. In the scientific field,this has been happening year onto year. The better courses have been soring.

Treppen

Simplythat wrote: »

I don't think it's that unusual in the field it is. In the scientific field,this has been happening year onto year. The better courses have been soring.

Just like teaching will be next year.

Janey B

ASTI press release

https://www.asti.ie

Asking for practical and orals to still be given 100%. Why have 100% for orals & music practicals when it’s predictive grades??? Very concerned that ASTI is calling for this and not addressing the important issues around calculating grades.

Janey B

This is their first concern, give me strength!!!
“These concerns include the Minister’s rescinding of his previous decision to award students 100 per cent for orals and certain practical examinations which were to have taken place earlier this year. The ASTI is calling for the Minister not to renege on his granting of full marks to students for orals, practicals, etc., and that this be extended to all Leaving Certificate project/ practical work.”

jayo76

In fairness to the ASTI, they have said they have a number of issues with the proposals and they would seek to improve equity and clarity on a number of issues. The ASTI campaigned very hard against teacher assessment of students even at Junior Cycle so there is no way they would have wanted to accept teachers predicting grade in the much higher stakes Leaving Cert. I have already seen whatsapp posts this morning from people suggesting the ASTI have sold them out, are not protecting them. Of course these posts are from people who have never attended a Branch meeting, never voice an opinion and only ever think of the Union when they personally feel under threat.

I dont want to be predicting grades but Im not sure what my Union can do to stop it, best they can do is get it tweaked and they have said they have issues in a number of areas, not just practicals and orals.

History Queen

Janey B wrote: »

ASTI press release

https://www.asti.ie

Asking for practical and orals to still be given 100%. Why have 100% for orals & music practicals when it’s predictive grades??? Very concerned that ASTI is calling for this and not addressing the important issues around calculating grades.

I'm not a member of the ASTI but I was very confused when I read this? Is it in relation to students that sit the exam as otherwise surely it makes predicting grades more difficult?

I don't know how I feel about all of this today. Both ASTI and TUI's statements seem to accept it is indeed unsafe for the exams to proceed in July. I wish they'd (government) share the health advice indicating this, as now I'm looking at the roadmap for opening back up thinking none of it is possible and not understanding why they aren't asking questions about this in the media? Which is deeply depressing in itself.

Can someone with more intellectual capacity than me explain what I'm missing? I'd swear my brain is turning to mush as the days pass.

skippy1977

Janey B wrote: »

ASTI press release

https://www.asti.ie

Asking for practical and orals to still be given 100%. Why have 100% for orals & music practicals when it’s predictive grades??? Very concerned that ASTI is calling for this and not addressing the important issues around calculating grades.

Well there is a huge issue over any practicals, orals, project work. The authorities would love if every student in the country accepted their predictive grades and we all move on BUT there will be a large cohort of students who (rightly) want to be assessed independently. I can't see how any of these orals, practicals etc will be run once the new school year starts and so I assume the thinking by the ASTI is we just HAVE to give 100% for those?

Janey B

I think most teachers are on board with giving predicted grades. These are unprecedented times and we all have to adapt. I am happy to be in the ASTI but think just go ahead with this now. Get it done, stop muddying the waters asking for orals & practical grades to be rescinded. We are going around in circles. Giving a predicted grade is challenging enough without having to figure it out if a student has full marks in the practical/oral element!!! That’s my point.

Bobtheman

Check the website ASTI