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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]
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It’s just one big mess now
I also asked for clarification on who would be teaching any of this years l certs who decide to sit exams
Treating them as repeats will not work
Repeats are there for whole year and follow the course in line with whatever class they go in to
Anyone sitting exams in Autumn/Winter will be doing revision only and will need a diff plan etc
So who teaches them ?
Or are we expected to take on all these individuals on top of our new timetable ?
Google classroom will make it unavoidable I would imagine
“Put another green jersey “
All of this small little bits and pieces add up . Only so many hours in the day .
Teacher wellbeing not a thing ?
Beginning to wonder do the ASTI know it’s teachers the represent0 -
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I think most teachers are on board with giving predicted grades. These are unprecedented times and we all have to adapt. I am happy to be in the ASTI but think just go ahead with this now. Get it done, stop muddying the waters asking for orals & practical grades to be rescinded. We are going around in circles. Giving a predicted grade is challenging enough without having to figure it out if a student has full marks in the practical/oral element!!! That’s my point.
Im not being argumentative here, I can see your point on orals/practicals of course I can but there is no way I would have the feeling that you had of just go ahead with it now. I dont want to go ahead with anything until issues are addressed and if the ASTI leadership statement last night had just been that they were happy to go ahead with this now, the abuse they would currently be getting would be huge!0 -
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Bizarre priorities from the asti. Have people been contacting them this week asking for that? Those of us who don’t agree wouldn’t have needed to ask them not to consider it, so it’s not representative.
I would have assumed once the 40% was given in Irish, the bell curve would have taken care of the rest. So while there would be no fails, there wouldn’t be a spike in H1’s either. Most OL students I knew had banked their 40 and not worked in Irish since that announcement.0 -
Im not being argumentative here, I can see your point on orals/practicals of course I can but there is no way I would have the feeling that you had of just go ahead with it now. I dont want to go ahead with anything until issues are addressed and if the ASTI leadership statement last night had just been that they were happy to go ahead with this now, the abuse they would currently be getting would be huge!
I agree with your point, what I was trying to say was get on with it but focus on the critical issues around the process. Stop fixating on the practicals/orals. We know our students and can give a fair realistic grade of all elements of their abilities. This is fairer to all students and the process should be based on fairness to all.0 -
I am not a leaving cert teacher but I wonder are they trying a pr stunt in terms of being seen to be on the side of the students? Teachers get a lot of abuse in the media especially Asti teachers so are they trying to get the public back on side?0
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Leaving aside the calculate grades...So if the 100% practical award for sit down exams in August is off the table.... Then what is going happen to written exam students who need a practical score later on?
Why is it off the table again. What's changed?
I think this is the ASTIs concern, is there an implication that teachers will run the practicals for those students at the same time as the sit down exams.. On top of regular teaching??
Are the sec going to organise it... So yould have potentially a 2020 sit down exam + 2020 practical + 2021 practical +. 2021 sit down exam
I think some clarity IS needed and the ASTI are right in asking the question on behalf of members.
Unlike TUI who jumped in front of the camera accepting everything as soon as it was announced on Friday!
ASTI know they can put a little pressure on if they stoke up student interest in the 100% too.... What does the ISSU have to say about it I wonder?0 -
Students who accept predictive grades also have their orals/project work predicted.
Do students who opt for sitting the exam get the 100% on orals/projects again?
Not a level playing field.
Does the ASTI think that bringing back the 100% will make it fair to both sets of students? But these students are not competing for the same college places, those sitting the exams are competing for next year's.
Apart from the fact that this fooks over the good students royally, it will also cause huge problems for this year's fifth year students as the will be competing for college places with the current sixth years who choose to sit their exams and have 100% on orals/projects.
Wouldn't it be much fairer on everybody to have current sixth years opting to sit the exams, also do their orals and submit their projects. To my knowledge, this would only cause a problem for construction studies as all other projects should have been finished or just about finished.0 -
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In fairness to the ASTI, they have said they have a number of issues with the proposals and they would seek to improve equity and clarity on a number of issues. The ASTI campaigned very hard against teacher assessment of students even at Junior Cycle so there is no way they would have wanted to accept teachers predicting grade in the much higher stakes Leaving Cert. I have already seen whatsapp posts this morning from people suggesting the ASTI have sold them out, are not protecting them. Of course these posts are from people who have never attended a Branch meeting, never voice an opinion and only ever think of the Union when they personally feel under threat.
I dont want to be predicting grades but Im not sure what my Union can do to stop it, best they can do is get it tweaked and they have said they have issues in a number of areas, not just practicals and orals.
Look while I agree with you to a certain extent and there’s little they can do at this stage, I do feel the ASTIs number one concern from this point should be to make sure the teachers are protected in all this. Not to be looking for free marks to be reinstated for orals and practicals, I didn’t hear any teacher looking for this, it’s very strange.
I thought that they would have made a complaint about the lack of a voice they had in the decision making process. Did they have much of a say in any of this? If they feel they did have a say and time to engage with their membership, then why weren’t the members surveyed for their opinions, before the announcement?
To be honest I think if people feel that the ASTI sold them out (I wouldn’t go that far myself, just a bit annoyed that they didn’t make stronger points), they are entitled to that opinion because whether they go to branch meetings or not every one of them pays hundreds of euro every year for that representation.0 -
There are a lot of details to be worked out.
Im a bit stressed about the time machine element. Suddenly, Im meant to have detailed records in the past? Im not that type of person.
I have some notes on homework and the odd grade but I wasn't geared up for this. Will I be reprimanded? Im worried.
I still think it will mainly be based on whats in the school system but I could be wrong.0 -
There are a lot of details to be worked out.
Im a bit stressed about the time machine element. Suddenly, Im meant to have detailed records in the past? Im not that type of person.
I have some notes on homework and the odd grade but I wasn't geared up for this. Will I be reprimanded? Im worried.
You weren't supposed to be, it's your job to teach, it's the SEC's job to examine.0 -
There are a lot of details to be worked out.
Im a bit stressed about the time machine element. Suddenly, Im meant to have detailed records in the past? Im not that type of person.
I have some notes on homework and the odd grade but I wasn't geared up for this. Will I be reprimanded? Im worried.
I still think it will mainly be based on whats in the school system but I could be wrong.
We were told during our big bad gdpr talk a few years ago journals were to be destroyed at the end of each year
So no teacher should in theory have any records of no homework etc from these students first year of the course ..........
Speaking of GDPR
I will now he allowed see ranking and results of students studying my subject but not in my class
Gdpr goes away when it suits doesnt it0 -
There are a lot of details to be worked out.
Im a bit stressed about the time machine element. Suddenly, Im meant to have detailed records in the past? Im not that type of person.
I have some notes on homework and the odd grade but I wasn't geared up for this. Will I be reprimanded? Im worried.
There’s no way they can reprimand you for not having something that you didn’t have to have. You’ll have your main exam results to look back on and you know how the student was working and the potential for improvement that they had/didn’t have. What else can you do?
We were never required to have this stuff so they can’t look for it now that it would suit them. I don’t have it anyway, maybe some do but the majority won’t. If you’re worried about it you could always say you shredded everything after the Mocks due to GDPR, that you had no reason to hang onto those records as it got close to the Leaving.0 -
Look while I agree with you to a certain extent and there’s little they can do at this stage, I do feel the ASTIs number one concern from this point should be to make sure the teachers are protected in all this. Not to be looking for free marks to be reinstated for orals and practicals, I didn’t hear any teacher looking for this, it’s very strange.
I thought that they would have made a complaint about the lack of a voice they had in the decision making process. Did they have much of a say in any of this? If they feel they did have a say and time to engage with their membership, then why weren’t the members surveyed for their opinions, before the announcement?
To be honest I think if people feel that the ASTI sold them out (I wouldn’t go that far myself, just a bit annoyed that they didn’t make stronger points), they are entitled to that opinion because whether they go to branch meetings or not every one of them pays hundreds of euro every year for that representation.
if they don't reinstate the 100% for those who do exams later then the only other options are
A. Undertake practicals
B teachers predict0 -
Look while I agree with you to a certain extent and there’s little they can do at this stage, I do feel the ASTIs number one concern from this point should be to make sure the teachers are protected in all this. Not to be looking for free marks to be reinstated for orals and practicals, I didn’t hear any teacher looking for this, it’s very strange.
I thought that they would have made a complaint about the lack of a voice they had in the decision making process. Did they have much of a say in any of this? If they feel they did have a say and time to engage with their membership, then why weren’t the members surveyed for their opinions, before the announcement?
To be honest I think if people feel that the ASTI sold them out (I wouldn’t go that far myself, just a bit annoyed that they didn’t make stronger points), they are entitled to that opinion because whether they go to branch meetings or not every one of them pays hundreds of euro every year for that representation.
Likewise I agree with you to a certain degree too, that there are many stronger points could be made against the proposal other than the projects/practicals I would agree fully.
People saying the ASTI sold them out I fully do have a problem with, do you genuinely believe ASTI SC were privy to all this beforehand? They had an emergency meeting Thursday night when this started breaking, met for 7 hours Friday and met again yesterday. Im not on SC but do know a few on it, these are people who are as vehemently against teachers assessing their own students or predicting grades as anybody I know. I know for a fact they see this as as big a shambles as many of us here do, however they do also have to balance that against media coverage of lets say "Asti in hardline stance says Ministers proposals were did not have Union approval and are a disaster" how does that play out for teachers with media coverage?
ASTI SC were trying to come up with a response to this over a weekend, maybe it could be a better response I agree but for members to feel entitled to the opinion they are selling them out? Not for me, these are people who like all members have the stress of this crisis, family life, teaching at the moment like all us.
Also maybe they could consult membership, I agree with this, however lets say straight away last Friday they emailed/txt every member and said a 3/4 day consultative process before we issue a response on this they would be vilified by many for lack of an immediate response.0 -
Some of my childs (LC student) thoughts/concerns:
* The students in favour of predicted grades ran a very successful social media campaign with the backing of the ISSU. The ISSU have not represented well any students who weren't in favour of PG's. They have not been catered for in this outcome. My child is not in favour of predicted grades and was pilloried on any platform they mentioned this on and I am talking badly bullied, so for a finish up just gave up. One guy went so far as to send a fake ip grabber link to click on so he could find out where my child lived.
* My child's school has a large number of teachers where they teach their own kids. These teachers are friends and socialise together and also with the Principal. It has been a running joke for the last 6 years that these kids have always been favored over other students. Always picked for main parts in plays, trips to various days out, school bank positions etc etc. How is fairness going to work here when the person responsible for checking fairness is also buddies with them? Who says one can't have a quiet word with the other and arrange for each of them to score their daughters higher then others. This is only one example, I'm sure there are 100's more across the country.
* My child does a subject out of school, how is their grade going to be filtered back in through the school and who is to say that the school teacher will put in the grade recommended by the external teacher. My child is expecting a H1, will the school teacher be happy to forfeit one of the precious H1s of his own students?
* The government has said use mock results with caution, what does this even mean? How can schools possibly use mocks when there was a website (****theleavingcert) with every single mock paper published and I am talking full pdf's. My child chose not to look at them to get a true reflection of where they were to get a better picture of what she needed to improve on. Boy, does she regret this decision now!
* My child now knows that they will not get their course with predicted grades. She needs a lot of points. She got 0 A's in her mock JC results and ended up getting 8 A's in the real thing. She is a calculated crammer and had a clear plan on how she was going to get her required grades from the mocks on. If she had known how important all the class tests etc would have been she would have studied accordingly. Introducing this retrospectively is deeply unfair. She now is in a position where she has no idea when her LC nightmare will end as she will have to sit an exam to secure her required course and no date has been set for this yet. She is 19 and devastated that she has to wait another year to enter college where she will be among students possibly 3 years younger then her.
* I also want to add that I am well aware that there was no guarantee that she would have got her desired course if the exams had gone ahead. However at least if she didn't she would have had no one to blame but herself. Instead she is now relying on teacher grades based on data up to March of this year on class tests/exams that she had no idea were of such critical importance at the time.
* A lot of her friends are going to accept their 2nd choice, do the LC written exams and take up their desired 1st choice course in 2021. As a result lots of kids will lose out on their first choice course because students are looking for ways to fill the year and taking up these places.
* I wont even go into how bad this is for 5th years where lots of places to courses will already be gone to 2020 students by the time they come round.
* If the exams were brought forward so they could still go to college in 2020 she would have been Ok with that. It's waiting the extra year when you are already one of the oldest in your year is the real killer for her.
It has been a very difficult few days in this house and I am trying my best to put a positive spin on something that I feel is grossly unfair. This is having a deeply devastating effect on her and her future is still very much up in the air.0 -
I agree with all your points here and yes it will have a very bad effect on the current 5th years and their college places. However if everyone is going to get lower points then the courses will be lower points.Some of my daughters (LC student) thoughts/concerns:
* The students in favour of predicted grades ran a very successful social media campaign with the backing of the ISSU. The ISSU have not represented well any students who weren't in favour of PG's. They have not been catered for well in this outcome. My daughter is not in favour of predicted grades and was pilloried on any platform she mentioned this on and I am talking badly bullied, so for a finish up herself and her friends just gave up. One guy went so far as to send her a fake url to click on so he could find out where she lived.
* My daughters school has 4 teachers where they teach their own daughters. These teachers are friends and socialise together and also with the Principal. It has been a running joke for the last 6 years that these kids have always been favoured over other students. Always picked for main parts in plays, trips to various days out, school bank positions etc etc. How is fairness going to work here when the person responsible for checking fairness is also buddies with them? Who says one can't have a quiet word with the other and arrange for each of them to score their daughters higher then others. This only one example, I'm sure there are 100's more across the country.
* My daughter does music out of school, how is her grade going to be filtered back in through the school and who is to say that the school teacher will put in the grade recommended by the external teacher. She is expecting a H1, will the school music teacher be happy to forfeit one of the precious H1s of his own students?
* The government has said use mock results with caution, what does this even mean? How can schools possibly use mocks when there was a website (****theleavingcert) with every single mock paper published and I am talking full pdf's. My daughter chose not to look at them as she wanted a true reflection of where she was to get a better picture of what she needed to improve on. Boy, does she regret this decision now!
* My daughter now knows that she will not get her course with predicted grades. She needs a lot of points. She got 0 A's in her mock JC results and ended up getting 8 A's in the real thing. She is a calculated crammer and had a clear plan on how she was going to get her required grades from the mocks on. If she had known how important all the class tests etc would have been she would have studied accordingly. Introducing this retrospectively is deeply unfair. She now is in a position where she has no idea when her LC nightmare will end as she will have to sit an exam to secure her required course and no date has been set for this yet. She is 19 and devastated that she has to wait another year to enter college where she will be among students possibly 3 years younger then her.
* A lot of her friends are going to accept their 2nd choice, do the LC written exams and take up their desired 1st choice course in 2021. As a result lots of kids will lose out on their first choice course because students are looking for ways to fill the year and taking up these places.
* I wont even go into how bad this is for 5th years where lots of places to courses will already be gone to 2020 students by the time they come round.
It has been a very difficult few days in this house and I am trying my best to put a positive spin on something that I feel is grossly unfair. This is having a deeply devastating effect on her and her future is still very much up in the air.
Your argument about the teachers child however is something we're going to see plenty of. Even when they get what they deserve, its easy to say someone got higher grades because of favouritism. And hence why we need a leaving cert exam.0 -
Some of my daughters (LC student) thoughts/concerns:
* The students in favour of predicted grades ran a very successful social media campaign with the backing of the ISSU. The ISSU threw any student who wasn't in favour of PG's under the bus. They have not been catered for well in this outcome. My daughter is not in favour of predicted grades and was pilloried on any platform she mentioned this on and I am talking badly bullied, so for a finish up herself and her friends just gave up. One guy went so far as to send her a fake url to click on so he could find out where she lived.
* My daughters school has 4 teachers where they teach their own daughters. These teachers are friends and socialise together and also with the Principal. It has been a running joke for the last 6 years that these kids have always been favoured over other students. Always picked for main parts in plays, trips to various days out, school bank positions etc etc. How is fairness going to work here when the person responsible for checking fairness is also buddies with them? Who says one can't have a quiet word with the other and arrange for each of them to score their daughters higher then others. This only one example I'm sure there are 100's more across the country.
* My daughter does music out of school, how is her grade going to be filtered back in through the school and who is to say that the school teacher will put in the grade recommended by the external teacher. She is expecting a H1, will the school music teacher be happy to forfeit one of the precious H1s of his own students?
* The government has said use mock results with caution, what does his mean? How can schools possibly use mocks when there was a website (****theleavingcert) with every single mock paper published and I am talking full pdf's. My daughter chose not to look at them as she wanted a true reflection of where she was to get a better picture of what she needed to improve on. Boy, does she regret this now!
* My daughter now knows that she will not get her course with predicted grades. She needs a lot of points. She got 0 A's in her mock JC results and ended up getting 8 A's in the real thing. She is a calculated crammer and had a clear plan on how she was going to get her required grades from the mocks on. If she had known how important all the class tests etc would have been she would have studied accordingly. Introducing this retrospectively is deeply unfair. She now is in a position where she has no idea when her LC nightmare will end as she will have to sit an exam to secure her required course and no date has been set for this yet. She is 19 and devastated that she has to wait another year to enter college where she will be among students possibly 3 years younger then her.
* A lot of her friends are going to accept their 2nd choice, do the LC written exams and take up their desired 1st choice course in 2021. As a result lots of kids will lose out on their first choice course because students are looking for ways to fill the year and taking up these places.
* I wont even go into how bad this is for 5th years where lots of places to courses will already be gone to 2020 students by the time they come round.
It has been a very difficult few days in this house and I am trying my best to put a positive spin on something that I feel is grossly unfair. This is having a deeply devastating effect on her and her future is still very much up in the air.
Can I first of all say that I am so sorry that your daughter is in this position. Teachers on the whole are not supportive of this proposal for a myriad of reasons, some of which you have touched on above.
I suggest you send exactly what you said above to media outlets, the ISSU (not meant to be selective about the students they represent), Joe McHugh and your local TD. Only by giving voice to the voiceless will change come about. Otherwise this will remain a fait accompli.
I have sent my own concerns to my union, local TDs and Joe McHugh. I'm not sending to media outlets as other teachers have beaten me to it and to be fair are probably much more eloquent than I am. Peter Lydon on twitter is worth following for a very articulate outline of many of the main issues as well as possible solutions. He also had his concerns printed in The Irish Times this morning.0 -
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* My daughter now knows that she will not get her course with predicted grades. She needs a lot of points. She got 0 A's in her mock JC results and ended up getting 8 A's in the real thing. She is a calculated crammer and had a clear plan on how she was going to get her required grades from the mocks on. If she had known how important all the class tests etc would have been she would have studied accordingly. Introducing this retrospectively is deeply unfair. She now is in a position where she has no idea when her LC nightmare will end as she will have to sit an exam to secure her required course and no date has been set for this yet. She is 19 and devastated that she has to wait another year to enter college where she will be among students possibly 3 years younger then her.
* A lot of her friends are going to accept their 2nd choice, do the LC written exams and take up their desired 1st choice course in 2021. As a result lots of kids will lose out on their first choice course because students are looking for ways to fill the year and taking up these places.
While I sympathise with your daughter you have no idea what grades she will be awarded and what points she will attain or what she will be offered in college. Same for her friends.0 -
The value of the traditional leaving cert format continues to rise by the day !0
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I think we all have to acknowledge there were no easy answers.
They could have avoided the flip flops by delaying any decision until closer to the time.
I believe a lot of issues to be worked out. A huge amount.
But if you have no exam-what is the alternative? To be fair to the ASTI SC-you must start from that position.
The July exam train has left the station.0 -
rainbowtrout wrote: »While I sympathise with your daughter you have no idea what grades she will be awarded and what points she will attain or what she will be offered in college. Same for her friends.
Oh she knows alright cause there is very little room for manouevre in what she needs to get and her course is very high points. One subject which is just rote learning she had put aside until nearer the exams. As I said she is a very calculated student and knew exactly what she was doing albeit it has back fired on her now.0 -
ASTI on radio in a while.
Also ... How can you take your 2nd choice and reject your 1st choice.
I always thought you couldn't move down on the list?0 -
oh she knows alright cause there is very little room for manouevre in what she needs to get and her course is very high points. One subject which is just rote learning she had put aside until nearer the exams. As I said she is a very calculated student and knew exactly what she was doing albeit it has back fired on her now.
But you have no idea what grades the teacher is going to put down for your daughter. They could be higher than you expect.
Equally, although your daughter is hard working and calculated, if the exams were to go ahead it would be just as easy for your daughter not to get her place due to over estimating a grade or points rising of there is already very little room to manoeuvre on a high points course.0 -
jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »A large number will go for the written papers if they reinstate this. Irish and languages starting at 40% instead of 0%, like free money
That is not correct. Modern Foreign Languages LC oral exams such as French, German, Spanish aren’t worth 40%, it’s 25% HL, 20% OL. Gaeilge oral is 40%.0 -
Music is 50% would have a substantial impact on my predicted grades tbh0
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But you have no idea what grades the teacher is going to put down for your daughter. They could be higher than you expect.
Equally, although your daughter is hard working and calculated, if the exams were to go ahead it would be just as easy for your daughter not to get her place due to over estimating a grade or points rising of there is already very little room to manoeuvre on a high points course.
Yes and she would have accepted that cause it would have been completely her own doing, no one to blame but herself. However that grade now is in the hands of a teacher using data up to March of this year on class tests and exams that she never knew the importance of at the time.0 -
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Its clear to see that predicted grading is both unfair and unworkable. Its a complete shambles. And not just for those fighting for the top courses and needing 3+H1s etc. Those going for traditional lower point courses are going to see massive points inflation. What teacher is going to give a predicted failed grade? Yet in reality students fail. Also the students that drop ordinary level last min to avoid failing higher level. Scraping a pass in higher level is worth as much points as top score in ordinary and they have just won the jackpot.
Holding the exams albeit a bit later. July was fine. Its not that difficult.
The junior cert is gone. Bye bye nobody cares. That means the hall in which it was being done is free. All the supervisors for the JC are free.
So split the leaving cert group in two. Thats massive social distancing. It can be done and it HAS to be done or else whole exam is a made up farce and the amount of repeats will be record level0
This discussion has been closed.
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