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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]
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It has begun in earnest now0
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Another point to note. If predicted grades are to be the way. Make sure ur student is doing higher level maths. A h6 grade with the 25 bonus points is 71 points total.
What teacher is going to give a predicted failed grade?0 -
Its clear to see that predicted grading is both unfair and unworkable. Its a complete shambles. And not just for those fighting for the top courses and needing 3+H1s etc. Those going for traditional lower point courses are going to see massive points inflation. What teacher is going to give a predicted failed grade? Yet in reality students fail. Also the students that drop ordinary level last min to avoid failing higher level. Scraping a pass in higher level is worth as much points as top score in ordinary and they have just won the jackpot.
Holding the exams albeit a bit later. July was fine. Its not that difficult.
The junior cert is gone. Bye bye nobody cares. That means the hall in which it was being done is free. All the supervisors for the JC are free.
So split the leaving cert group in two. Thats massive social distancing. It can be done and it HAS to be done or else whole exam is a made up farce and the amount of repeats will be record level
A social media campaign about mental health of students never wanted to listen to this sensible comment that we all knew.0 -
Another point to note. If predicted grades are to be the way. Make sure ur student is doing higher level maths. A h6 grade with the 25 bonus points is 71 points total.
What teacher is going to give a predicted failed grade?
Well the problem is even if the teacher doesn’t fail the student the department might afterwards. Take for example Ordinary Level Maths. It has an average fail rate of I think about 10%? Could be a bit off with the figure but we’ll take it as an example. So that means in a class of 20, on average 2 will fail. This is why they want the ranking system. Because if all teachers give their list of 20 with no fails, the department will presumably start changing the lowest ranked couple of students from each class to a fail.
So I would imagine you’re playing a very risky game staying at a level where you should be dropping. Because if you should be dropping them you’re going to be one of the lower ranked in the class.0 -
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Predicted grading could possibly work if everyone had known 2 years ago that this would happen.But since they didn't, it is a shambles.Among my own aquaintances, nobody has LC students but the general agreement is that it is been handled terribly.For the life of me I cannot understand why they didn't move heaven and earth to make July 29th happen-I suspect it is more to do with lack of teaching time immediately beforehand, than the ability to stage the exams.I mean, literally the whole country is available for them to put students in.Every shool is empty, colleges are empty, conference rooms are empty, the RDS is empty....I cannot believe that something couldn't have been worked out.Congregating can also be dealt with ....UCD run exams every year in the RDS that all finish at different times, if you are on a finish early one, you are basically run out of the hall, and then on out of the building.No loitering outside.Even down to having a room with say 10 students in it, leaving and entering in rows or turns and moving on and off the property.
Were there any real issues that could not have been practically overcome,other than the arrangement for teaching time?I just think this decision has big ramifications, the timeframe to really make it work, and work well, is too short. I do not envy any of the parties involved, not least those students who wanted to sit exams.0 -
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Well the problem is even if the teacher doesn’t fail the student the department might afterwards. Take for example Ordinary Level Maths. It has an average fail rate of I think about 10%? Could be a bit off with the figure but we’ll take it as an example. So that means in a class of 20, on average 2 will fail. This is why they want the ranking system. Because if all teachers give their list of 20 with no fails, the department will presumably start changing the lowest ranked couple of students from each class to a fail.
So I would imagine you’re playing a very risky game staying at a level where you should be dropping. Because if you should be dropping them you’re going to be one of the lower ranked in the class.
Id gamble it. No fails for anyone in any subject this year. Impossible to predict and very high chance of lawsuit. Just not worth the hastle.
Points will be madly inflated over this alone. Imagine being the kid that didn’t do it.
Some clarity of issue of failed grades needs to be heard from gov. Someone needs to ask the question0 -
Predicted grading could possibly work if everyone had known 2 years ago that this would happen.But since they didn't, it is a shambles.Among my own aquaintances, nobody has LC students but the general agreement is that it is been handled terribly.For the life of me I cannot understand why they didn't move heaven and earth to make July 29th happen-I suspect it is more to do with lack of teaching time immediately beforehand, than the ability to stage the exams.I mean, literally the whole country is available for them to put students in.Every shool is empty, colleges are empty, conference rooms are empty, the RDS is empty....I cannot believe that something couldn't have been worked out.Congregating can also be dealt with ....UCD run exams every year in the RDS that all finish at different times, if you are on a finish early one, you are basically run out of the hall, and then on out of the building.No loitering outside.Even down to having a room with say 10 students in it, leaving and entering in rows or turns and moving on and off the property.
Were there any real issues that could not have been practically overcome,other than the arrangement for teaching time?I just think this decision has big ramifications, the timeframe to really make it work, and work well, is too short. I do not envy any of the parties involved, not least those students who wanted to sit exams.
Agree completely. Exams need to be held.
Even if some missed it due to covid or whatever. Well that amount will be tiny compared to the shambles of whats about to happen.
Not getting ur course over ur own lack of work is one thing. But over a predicted grade.......... its a bullet to the head. The detriment it will cause to the student is huge.0 -
Another point to note. If predicted grades are to be the way. Make sure ur student is doing higher level maths. A h6 grade with the 25 bonus points is 71 points total.
What teacher is going to give a predicted failed grade?
You can't move back up to higher i think and if a student would deserve to fail then that shud be the predicted grade0 -
Some of my childs (LC student) thoughts/concerns:
* The students in favour of predicted grades ran a very successful social media campaign with the backing of the ISSU. The ISSU have not represented well any students who weren't in favour of PG's. They have not been catered for in this outcome. My child is not in favour of predicted grades and was pilloried on any platform they mentioned this on and I am talking badly bullied, so for a finish up just gave up. One guy went so far as to send a fake url to click on so he could find out where my child lived.
* My child's school has a large number of teachers where they teach their own kids. These teachers are friends and socialise together and also with the Principal. It has been a running joke for the last 6 years that these kids have always been favored over other students. Always picked for main parts in plays, trips to various days out, school bank positions etc etc. How is fairness going to work here when the person responsible for checking fairness is also buddies with them? Who says one can't have a quiet word with the other and arrange for each of them to score their daughters higher then others. This is only one example, I'm sure there are 100's more across the country.
* My child does a subject out of school, how is their grade going to be filtered back in through the school and who is to say that the school teacher will put in the grade recommended by the external teacher. My child is expecting a H1, will the school teacher be happy to forfeit one of the precious H1s of his own students?
* The government has said use mock results with caution, what does this even mean? How can schools possibly use mocks when there was a website (****theleavingcert) with every single mock paper published and I am talking full pdf's. My child chose not to look at them to get a true reflection of where they were to get a better picture of what she needed to improve on. Boy, does she regret this decision now!
* My child now knows that they will not get their course with predicted grades. She needs a lot of points. She got 0 A's in her mock JC results and ended up getting 8 A's in the real thing. She is a calculated crammer and had a clear plan on how she was going to get her required grades from the mocks on. If she had known how important all the class tests etc would have been she would have studied accordingly. Introducing this retrospectively is deeply unfair. She now is in a position where she has no idea when her LC nightmare will end as she will have to sit an exam to secure her required course and no date has been set for this yet. She is 19 and devastated that she has to wait another year to enter college where she will be among students possibly 3 years younger then her.
* A lot of her friends are going to accept their 2nd choice, do the LC written exams and take up their desired 1st choice course in 2021. As a result lots of kids will lose out on their first choice course because students are looking for ways to fill the year and taking up these places.
* I wont even go into how bad this is for 5th years where lots of places to courses will already be gone to 2020 students by the time they come round.
* If the exams were brought forward so they could still go to college in 2020 she would have been Ok with that. It's waiting the extra year when you are already one of the oldest in your year is the real killer for her.
It has been a very difficult few days in this house and I am trying my best to put a positive spin on something that I feel is grossly unfair. This is having a deeply devastating effect on her and her future is still very much up in the air.
Great post.
This will be an ongoing omnishambles.0 -
jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »You can't move back up to higher i think and if a student would deserve to fail then that shud be the predicted grade
Of course you can.
And most students haven’t dropped yet. My memory of it is its mostly a last minute thing. You decide to drop to ordinary after bad mock maybe but wouldn’t actually do the paperwork untill before real thing.
Not with current situation......... u cud grap a free 30-40 points easy.
Needs clarification of the failing grade. At moment id stick with higher level till its 100% clarified that there will be failed grades.
Just another example of the shambles predicted grading is0 -
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Some of my childs (LC student) thoughts/concerns:
* My child now knows that they will not get their course with predicted grades. She needs a lot of points. She got 0 A's in her mock JC results and ended up getting 8 A's in the real thing. She is a calculated crammer and had a clear plan on how she was going to get her required grades from the mocks on. .
This is why I would favour, in subjects where it is appropriate, that JC results would be taken into consideration. I have a good number of students in my LC class who didn't do TY and sat the JC just 23 months ago. It also, as a properly moderated and invigilated state exam, is a far greater indicator of academic potential than mocks or Christmas or summer exams. However, I imagine I'd be in a minority on that.0 -
Of course you can.
And most students haven’t dropped yet. My memory of it is its mostly a last minute thing. You decide to drop to ordinary after bad mock maybe but wouldn’t actually do the paperwork untill before real thing.
Not with current situation......... u cud grap a free 30-40 points easy.
Needs clarification of the failing grade. At moment id stick with higher level till its 100% clarified that there will be failed grades.
Just another example of the shambles predicted grading is
Think this came up when they gave full marks for language orals and music practicals. Otherwise whole country could have passed higher Irish and music (is practical 50% or what is it?)
You could still drop from higher to ordinary but you couldn't jump back up0 -
Now they talking about legal protection for teachers. Theres also lobbying occuring between parents and teachers.
In this background teachers are going tontake the easy way out. Theyll give the barely pass grade to the student that should of failed and a second best grade to the student that would of gotten a h1 ( cos how u justify a h1 if they got a b in mocks?)
Why? Because no teacher is going to take on the hastle and the ****storm coming after “my little angel” didn’t get medicine happens.
If high grades are lowered and lower grades are improved ........ how the hell are colleges going to decide who gets what course?0 -
Now they talking about legal protection for teachers. Theres also lobbying occuring between parents and teachers.
In this background teachers are going tontake the easy way out. Theyll give the barely pass grade to the student that should of failed and a second best grade to the student that would of gotten a h1 ( cos how u justify a h1 if they got a b in mocks?)
Why? Because no teacher is going to take on the hastle and the ****storm coming after “my little angel” didn’t get medicine happens.
If high grades are lowered and lower grades are improved ........ how the hell are colleges going to decide who gets what course?
Is that not what the bell curve and standardisation is supposed to prevent though? If a school has had a history of two or three students failing in LC exams for the last three years, it will be questioned why there are no fails predicted this year.0 -
Now they talking about legal protection for teachers. Theres also lobbying occuring between parents and teachers.
In this background teachers are going tontake the easy way out. Theyll give the barely pass grade to the student that should of failed and a second best grade to the student that would of gotten a h1 ( cos how u justify a h1 if they got a b in mocks?)
Why? Because no teacher is going to take on the hastle and the ****storm coming after “my little angel” didn’t get medicine happens.
If high grades are lowered and lower grades are improved ........ how the hell are colleges going to decide who gets what course?
Jesus we can’t win
It will be our fault somehow
I am a teacher
I am telling you i will be professional and follow whatever guidelines are put in front of me
I know some parents will chose not to believe this when they see results they do not like
I can’t change that
I can only do my job as best I can
By the way
If all teachers give a “barely pass grade “ to a number of students then some of those students will still fail
I wish we could sticky the FAQs. They have been posted a few times already and all this information is in them0 -
twomonkeys wrote: »Is that not what the bell curve and standardisation is supposed to prevent though? If a school has had a history of two or three students failing in LC exams for the last three years, it will be questioned why there are no fails predicted this year.
Yes
It is in the FAQ for students and parents
But that doesn’t suit the narrative that teachers are lazy and want a soft way out0 -
Oh she knows alright cause there is very little room for manouevre in what she needs to get and her course is very high points. One subject which is just rote learning she had put aside until nearer the exams. As I said she is a very calculated student and knew exactly what she was doing albeit it has back fired on her now.
Exactly the same situation with my son. Repeating would have him still in school at 20. He didn’t cheat at the mocks, as he realized how self defeating that would be (oh the irony now...).0 -
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Jesus we can’t win
It will be our fault somehow
I am a teacher
I am telling you i will be professional and follow whatever guidelines are put in front of me
I know some parents will chose not to believe this when they see results they do not like
I can’t change that
I can only do my job as best I can
By the way
If all teachers give a “barely pass grade “ to a number of students then some of those students will still fail
I wish we could sticky the FAQs. They have been posted a few times already and all this information is in them
You can win. Hold the exams in july.
Im guessing less than 20% will take this option. With junior cert cancelled that means 2 halls and supervisors available. That means only 10% of people in the hall compared to what wud be there.
Thats safer than going to the shops. Why isn’t it an option?
Exams in oct nov when they dont count is not acceptable when this can be done in july.
Also whats the point in doing exams in oct nov ...... u may as well do them in summer 2021 cos u wont be getting ur college place till 2021 anyway.
Predicted grades are based on nothing. The school exams and mocks count for zilch. As I said before i got 600 points in leaving and 420 in mocks. My school grades were ...... good but not As in everything like.
If I didn’t get Veterinary it would of devastated me and turned my life upside down. Theres no plan b. Just repeating.
The people fighting for these courses should be allowed to fight! A teachers opinion means nothing for them. You wont get it right. Someone has to speak up for them.0 -
Yes and she would have accepted that cause it would have been completely her own doing, no one to blame but herself. However that grade now is in the hands of a teacher using data up to March of this year on class tests and exams that she never knew the importance of at the time.
And neither did any other student. You daughter is not unique in this regard.0 -
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You can win. Hold the exams in july.
Im guessing less than 20% will take this option. With junior cert cancelled that means 2 halls and supervisors available. That means only 10% of people in the hall compared to what wud be there.
Thats safer than going to the shops. Why isn’t it an option?
Exams in oct nov when they dont count is not acceptable when this can be done in july.
Also whats the point in doing exams in oct nov ...... u may as well do them in summer 2021 cos u wont be getting ur college place till 2021 anyway.
I am a teacher
I am not the NPHET or the Dept of Education it the SEC
I can not organize to run the exams in July
I was referring specifically to your accusation that teachers are looking for and will take the soft way out
And somehow it will end up being the teachers fault
We have not been consulted and have been ramrodded into doing things now we are completely against
But yes . We are looking for a soft way out
It has begun in earnest now alright as I said already0 -
You can win. Hold the exams in july.
Im guessing less than 20% will take this option. With junior cert cancelled that means 2 halls and supervisors available. That means only 10% of people in the hall compared to what wud be there.
Thats safer than going to the shops. Why isn’t it an option?
Exams in oct nov when they dont count is not acceptable when this can be done in july.
Also whats the point in doing exams in oct nov ...... u may as well do them in summer 2021 cos u wont be getting ur college place till 2021 anyway.
But have they not already said that exams can't happen in July? I thought that was the whole point of this?
And I'm not sure where you are getting 20% from. I'd say given the preparation they've put in and that fact that July is just weeks away there'd be quite an uptake especially if they had a no-lose option where they could take predicted grades instead anyway.0 -
I am a teacher
I am not the NPHET or the Dept of Education it the SEC
I can not organize to run the exams in July
I was referring specifically to your accusation that teachers are looking for and will take the soft way out
And somehow it will end up being the teachers fault
We have not been consulted and have been ramrodded into doing things now we are completely against
But yes . We are looking for a soft way out
It has begun in earnest now alright as I said already
It won’t be the teachers fault. Fault is 100% with government0 -
Well the problem is even if the teacher doesn’t fail the student the department might afterwards. Take for example Ordinary Level Maths. It has an average fail rate of I think about 10%? Could be a bit off with the figure but we’ll take it as an example. So that means in a class of 20, on average 2 will fail. This is why they want the ranking system. Because if all teachers give their list of 20 with no fails, the department will presumably start changing the lowest ranked couple of students from each class to a fail.
So I would imagine you’re playing a very risky game staying at a level where you should be dropping. Because if you should be dropping them you’re going to be one of the lower ranked in the class.
Yes, but if a teacher doesn't fail any student and gives their lowest ranking students H7/O6 grades depending on level and the DES decide to fail them, and the student appeals, they will see the teacher originally passed them.
Realistically it will be the DES who will have to decide the fails for the most part.
Unless you are in a position where you teach a practical subject and had a student that turned in no work for the practical or you have a student that has consistently failed that particular level with really low scores <20%, I can't imagine many teachers writing down fail grades.0 -
Sorry but I will be professional in my duties.Now they talking about legal protection for teachers. Theres also lobbying occuring between parents and teachers.
In this background teachers are going tontake the easy way out. Theyll give the barely pass grade to the student that should of failed and a second best grade to the student that would of gotten a h1 ( cos how u justify a h1 if they got a b in mocks?)
Why? Because no teacher is going to take on the hastle and the ****storm coming after “my little angel” didn’t get medicine happens.
If high grades are lowered and lower grades are improved ........ how the hell are colleges going to decide who gets what course?0 -
Predicted grading could possibly work if everyone had known 2 years ago that this would happen.But since they didn't, it is a shambles.Among my own aquaintances, nobody has LC students but the general agreement is that it is been handled terribly.For the life of me I cannot understand why they didn't move heaven and earth to make July 29th happen-I suspect it is more to do with lack of teaching time immediately beforehand, than the ability to stage the exams.I mean, literally the whole country is available for them to put students in.Every shool is empty, colleges are empty, conference rooms are empty, the RDS is empty....I cannot believe that something couldn't have been worked out.Congregating can also be dealt with ....UCD run exams every year in the RDS that all finish at different times, if you are on a finish early one, you are basically run out of the hall, and then on out of the building.No loitering outside.Even down to having a room with say 10 students in it, leaving and entering in rows or turns and moving on and off the property.
Were there any real issues that could not have been practically overcome,other than the arrangement for teaching time?I just think this decision has big ramifications, the timeframe to really make it work, and work well, is too short. I do not envy any of the parties involved, not least those students who wanted to sit exams.
Yep, there are hotels in every decent sized town in the country with function rooms with sound systems, who I'm sure would have only been delighted with the business this summer if school buildings were deemed inadequate for holding exams. There are community centres and halls and sports complexes all over the place. There are university/IT buildings set up for large exams which will more than likely be empty this summer. Space really isn't an issue at the moment.0 -
But have they not already said that exams can't happen in July? I thought that was the whole point of this?
And I'm not sure where you are getting 20% from. I'd say given the preparation they've put in and that fact that July is just weeks away there'd be quite an uptake especially if they had a no-lose option where they could take predicted grades instead anyway.
Their reasoning for not holding exams isn’t good enough.
20% is based roughly on surveys and fact that predicted results will have already been available.
Its mainly the students fighting for medicine, vet law etc that will want to take the exams. If ur prediction is 550 points and u know u were going for vet or med etc ........ thats the person that wants to sit exams. Courses are just picked for wxample same applies to someone wanting teaching or engineering or whatever. But knce u know ur prediction and u feel safe chances are u wont want to do exams.
Tho personally being able to pick ur higher grade real or predicted ......... christ thats a mess. If u do exam u should be forfeiting predicted score. That will also keep numbers down0 -
Its clear to see that predicted grading is both unfair and unworkable. Its a complete shambles. And not just for those fighting for the top courses and needing 3+H1s etc. Those going for traditional lower point courses are going to see massive points inflation. What teacher is going to give a predicted failed grade? Yet in reality students fail. Also the students that drop ordinary level last min to avoid failing higher level. Scraping a pass in higher level is worth as much points as top score in ordinary and they have just won the jackpot.
Holding the exams albeit a bit later. July was fine. Its not that difficult.
The junior cert is gone. Bye bye nobody cares. That means the hall in which it was being done is free. All the supervisors for the JC are free.
So split the leaving cert group in two. Thats massive social distancing. It can be done and it HAS to be done or else whole exam is a made up farce and the amount of repeats will be record level
I agree totally but because of the flip flops that train has left. They cant flip flop again. I would have held off on any announcement on the LC until now. Then BEGUN a discussion on the alternatives. It is a shambles but I cant see them reversing this decision. Tinkering yes -reversing no. ****ing it up Yes-reversing no.0 -
I am a teacher
I am not the NPHET or the Dept of Education it the SEC
I can not organize to run the exams in July
I was referring specifically to your accusation that teachers are looking for and will take the soft way out
And somehow it will end up being the teachers fault
We have not been consulted and have been ramrodded into doing things now we are completely against
But yes . We are looking for a soft way out
It has begun in earnest now alright as I said already
I hope not, I appreciate that teachers didn’t want this thrust on them. My sons teachers have worked really hard with their students during the lockdown, and I believe they genuinely want the best for them. I also believe they’ll approach this nightmare as professionals, and be as fair as possible. But the flaws in the process are going to cause upset, and I just hope people direct their anger to where it is deserved - the people at the top who couldnt come up with a better solution than this mess.0 -
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paddybarry wrote: »Sorry but I will be professional in my duties.
Well back when i was doing the leaving none of my teachers thought i was an a1 student. I was tho. And i proved it.
So be as professional as u want. Teachers predicting grades based on basically useless information is madness.0
This discussion has been closed.
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