Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

Inspector Coptoor

Is there seriously a suggestion out there that if LCs of 2020 choose to sit the paper in Nov/Oct/Dec/Jan or whenever that they are to be taught?

By the teachers they have finished with as of Friday 8th of May?

Those same teachers who will be focused on the LC class of 2021 and will have already full timetables?

Seriously?

Mardy Bum

pbthevet wrote: »

Well back when i was doing the leaving none of my teachers thought i was an a1 student. I was tho. And i proved it.

So be as professional as u want. Teachers predicting grades based on basically useless information is madness.

I'm not sure why you are being criticised as you are 100% correct. There seems to be a number of teachers and principals that think being "professional" endows the gift of infallibility despite copious research demonstrating that this process will lead to most grades being predicted incorrectly.

byronbay2

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Is there seriously a suggestion out there that if LCs of 2020 choose to sit the paper in Nov/Oct/Dec/Jan or whenever that they are to be taught?

By the teachers they have finished with as of Friday 8th of May?

Those same teachers who will be focused on the LC class of 2021 and will have already full timetables?

Seriously?

They are to be left to their own devices and study themselves. So unfair on that whole cohort of students.

km79

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Is there seriously a suggestion out there that if LCs of 2020 choose to sit the paper in Nov/Oct/Dec/Jan or whenever that they are to be taught?

By the teachers they have finished with as of Friday 8th of May?

Those same teachers who will be focused on the LC class of 2021 and will have already full timetables?

Seriously?

I asked the union to seek clarification on this
I got no response as of yet

A few people are suggesting they are just treated like normal "repeats"
There are 2 issues with this
1. School/class capacity (I have a practical subject which has to be limited to 24 for health and safety)
2. Normal repeats join the class at start of year and work along with class until the following year's L cert exams. Any student who "repeats" for exams in nov/dec will not be doing this.They would in effect be a separate class. So will schools timetable these class with a designated teacher for each subject ? Or will they just expect us to don the green jersey and do it in whatever little personal time we have left in our lives? Google Classroom has created an issue here too.......I always "archived" my Edmodo L C class groups when they finished up their exam in my subject. I liked to leave it open until then so they could look back over my materials. If I leave the GC classroom open I am contactable for as long as it is there.
I think it will just be taken as a given that we will take it all on. I have 2 Lc classes this year. 20% of my hours

shesty

I just think the variables involved in sitting exams in July (social distancing, sick students, lack of teaching time etc) are far less than the variables involved in this new arrangement.

It is a shocking U turn by the Government, badly handled, badly managed and very short-sighted.And now I hear them muttering about school openings in September.It is becoming outright embarassing that in "controlling" the viral spread we have essentially backed ourselves into a corner and can't allow our normal lives to resume, while all around us, countries who were hammered far worse are heading back to some sort of normality in a much shorter timeframe.

What are we at?

Choochtown

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, but if a teacher doesn't fail any student and gives their lowest ranking students H7/O6 grades depending on level and the DES decide to fail them, and the student appeals, they will see the teacher originally passed them.

Realistically it will be the DES who will have to decide the fails for the most part.

Unless you are in a position where you teach a practical subject and had a student that turned in no work for the practical or you have a student that has consistently failed that particular level with really low scores <20%, I can't imagine many teachers writing down fail grades.

Have you a link for this bit Rainbowtrout?

km79

shesty wrote: »

I just think the variables involved in sitting exams in July (social distancing, sick students, lack of teaching time etc) are far less than the variables involved in this new arrangement.

It is a shocking U turn by the Government, badly handled, badly managed and very short-sighted.And now I hear them muttering about school openings in September.It is becoming outright embarassing that in "controlling" the viral spread we have essentially backed ourselves into a corner and can't allow our normal lives to resume, while all around us, countries who were hammered far worse are heading back to some sort of normality in a much shorter timeframe.

What are we at?

Infection rates are rising again in Germany and South Korea so I do not blame the govt for prudence in that regard

km79

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0510/1137545-mchugh-schools-reopening/

Aiming for September but not clear yet how it will happen

Rosita

pbthevet wrote: »

20% is based roughly on surveys and fact that predicted results will have already been available.

But the Minister said that they would have the results in August around the usual time. You're suggesting that the exams be sat in July?

And their reason for not holding the exams is public health advice. Why is the public health advice "not good enough"? Is it not obvious that whatever shortcomings we might find in how the DES handled this we can at least assume that cancelling the exams was the absolute doomsday scenario for them? I doubt they would take such an unpalatable option lightly.

mirrorwall14

Why is the proposal August? If schools have all results in for 29th May to the dept why would it take them 10 weeks to process? Surely it will be excel or similar automated processes? The discussions part is done

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Why is the proposal August? If schools have all results in for 29th May to the dept why would it take them 10 weeks to process? Surely it will be excel or similar automated processes? The discussions part is done

Maybe they think we will finally have done enough to have earned our holidays.......
I can see it changing though. We will have the torture of predicting our own student's results and then preparing some of them for exams over the latter part of our holidays.......

Newbie20

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, but if a teacher doesn't fail any student and gives their lowest ranking students H7/O6 grades depending on level and the DES decide to fail them, and the student appeals, they will see the teacher originally passed them.

Realistically it will be the DES who will have to decide the fails for the most part.

Unless you are in a position where you teach a practical subject and had a student that turned in no work for the practical or you have a student that has consistently failed that particular level with really low scores <20%, I can't imagine many teachers writing down fail grades.

Yes I know what you mean but my response was with regards to what the original poster had said. He said that a student should do Higher Level Maths regardless because the teacher won’t fail them. My point was that that strategy is risky because even if the teacher doesn’t fail them the department could. And in that case, while they might find out on appeal that the teacher didn’t fail them, they’ll still have failed!

acequion

km79 wrote: »

Maybe they think we will finally have done enough to have earned our holidays.......
I can see it changing though. We will have the torture of predicting our own student's results and then preparing some of them for exams over the latter part of our holidays.......

Ah will you give over! :rolleyes: For the umpteenth time we cannot be forced to work in July and August! Now, there will always be idiots ready to die for the cause of whatever the Minister is having. But you don't strike me as one of them. And I'm certainly not either.

So stop scaremongering and enjoy your Sunday. You could do with it.:)

Purefrank128

From what the Taoiseach and Minister said, the alternative to the calculated grades proposal was to run a version of the LC in July/August that would not have resembled a conventional LC. So what would have been so bad about that?

Say every typical student (studying six, seven or eight subjects) nominated their best four. A computer picked two of these at random. Each student sat a 1 hour exam in each of the two subjects picked for them. The exam covered the whole syllabus, with some choice to allow for students who have not completed their courses.

So each student is examined for a total of two hours. Would that not have been manageable?

Of course this solution would not have been optimal. It would have been like deciding the World Cup Final on a penalty shootout - not ideal, but the best solution available when time and circumstances dictate that playing a full replay is not possible. Certainly better than asking the referee of a friendly match held a few months earlier to decide which team was worthier, which is equivalent to getting a teacher to predict a grade based on performances in previous house exams and class/home work.

Yes, running a modified LC such as this would not have solved the apparent problem of students having different experiences with remote learning since March - some with poor broadband, noisy households, teachers unable to fully engage. But students have different experiences of education all the time - better/worse schools, better/worse teachers - and that doesn't stop us from examining them.

Apologies for continuing the sporting metaphor, but my opinion is that the government lacked the political balls to stand up to the crazy "cancel the LC" lobby. They should have gone with a short, sharp "penalty shootout" version of the LC. Too late now. Bye-bye Joe.

km79

acequion wrote: »

Ah will you give over! :rolleyes: For the umpteenth time we cannot be forced to work in July and August! Now, there will always be idiots ready to die for the cause of whatever the Minister is having. But you don't strike me as one of them. And I'm certainly not either.

So stop scaremongering and enjoy your Sunday. You could do with it.:)

Treppen

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Is there seriously a suggestion out there that if LCs of 2020 choose to sit the paper in Nov/Oct/Dec/Jan or whenever that they are to be taught?

By the teachers they have finished with as of Friday 8th of May?

Those same teachers who will be focused on the LC class of 2021 and will have already full timetables?

Seriously?

There's a bit of ambiguity around about cessation to f teaching. I would take advantage of this and start to make videos to FINISH OUT THE COURSE. Email students with information on how best to do so given the couple of weeks left.
Stress to them that they can refer to the videos at any stage or maybe just send work to be corrected but zero discussion of grades will be tolerated and could implicate them further down the line .

Rosita

Treppen wrote: »

There's a bit of ambiguity around about cessation to f teaching. I would take advantage of this and start to make videos to FINISH OUT THE COURSE. Email students with information on how best to do so given the couple of weeks left.
Stress to them that they can refer to the videos at any stage or maybe just send work to be corrected but zero discussion of grades will be tolerated and could implicate them further down the line .

I know of Principals in two school I am familiar with who have instructed both students and teachers to have no contact. You seem to be suggesting business as usual but not everyone will favour that.

randylonghorn

byronbay2 wrote: »

* A lot of her friends are going to accept their 2nd choice, do the LC written exams and take up their desired 1st choice course in 2021. As a result lots of kids will lose out on their first choice course because students are looking for ways to fill the year and taking up these places.

They should be aware that if they do that, they will end up paying full fees for first year in 2021, as it will be the second time they will be doing first year of an undergraduate degree.

Plus all the accommodation costs etc. of an extra year in college.

Apart altogether from the fact that they are counting their eggs before they're hatched, this is financially a pretty bad plan.

I'm sorry for your daughter, byron, I'm sorry for all of them!

As I said here and elsewhere last Friday, the plan "to end uncertainty" was guaranteed to increase it exponentially.

Treppen wrote: »

Also ... How can you take your 2nd choice and reject your 1st choice.
I always thought you couldn't move down on the list?

You can't, I assume we're talking about students who miss their first choice this year, but really want it, so sit the written exams in Autumn in the hope of getting it next year.

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

Infection rates are rising again in Germany and South Korea so I do not blame the govt for prudence in that regard

Yes, three of the provinces in Germany have already reached the levels they said would prompt lockdown to be reinstated. The so called R rate has shot up in recent days across the country. Easy to say 'back to normal' not so easy to control the consequences.

shesty

I don't think anyone is saying back to normal.
What I was saying was that I thought the LC issue was extremely badly handled, and secondly, that now they are starting to talk about uncertainty over schools in September.Can we not make a few practical decisions, or are we going to have to listen another 15 weeks or so, of flip-flopping about schools now too. Saying we don't know enough about the disease is one thing, but there are certain things we do know, and that decisions could be made around.

jayo76

Solicitor on rte news saying its imperative that students have access to the process by which teachers came to the grade they as the individual teacher calculated for the student. If that is the case it has to be based on cold, hard existing data and nothing else, in house exams and mocks.

Inspector Coptoor

Treppen wrote: »

There's a bit of ambiguity around about cessation to f teaching. I would take advantage of this and start to make videos to FINISH OUT THE COURSE. Email students with information on how best to do so given the couple of weeks left.
Stress to them that they can refer to the videos at any stage or maybe just send work to be corrected but zero discussion of grades will be tolerated and could implicate them further down the line .

I finished the two courses I teach on March 10th.

Have been revising since.

Inspector Coptoor

jayo76 wrote: »

Solicitor on rte news saying its imperative that students have access to the process by which teachers came to the grade they as the individual teacher calculated for the student. If that is the case it has to be based on cold, hard existing data and nothing else, in house exams and mocks.

If the solicitors of this world push for that and that only - then students will do worse than they would have done in the leaving.

This totally negates the very clear statement that the teacher is to use his or her professional opinion on how the candidate would have done in June, not how they were doing in February.

chocoholic999

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If the solicitors of this world push for that and that only - then students will do worse than they would have done in the leaving.

This totally negates the very clear statement that the teacher is to use his or her professional opinion on how the candidate would have done in June, not how they were doing in February.

All students go up from mocks in my experience so it can’t be as simple as averaging results. Also plenty of teachers mark their students harder at Christmas/mocks compared to how it would be marked by SEC

Polka_Dot

randylonghorn wrote: »

They should be aware that if they do that, they will end up paying full fees for first year in 2021, as it will be the second time they will be doing first year of an undergraduate degree.

Actually, that's not true. From the gov FAQs

"Students who opt to sit the Leaving Certificate examinations later in the year and who receive an improved CAO offer on foot of these results will also receive a deferred college offer to start their course in the 2021/22 academic year. If a candidate who has started first year of a course becomes entitled to a higher CAO offer and chooses to accept same in the following academic year, attendance for the first year on the new course would remain eligible for free fees and SUSI funding as appropriate."

jayo76

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If the solicitors of this world push for that and that only - then students will do worse than they would have done in the leaving.

This totally negates the very clear statement that the teacher is to use his or her professional opinion on how the candidate would have done in June, not how they were doing in February.

Totally agree with you but this is the minefield of it now and she was the first solicitor I heard speak on the matter. I suppose for a teacher it only really becomes an issue for us if we gave a predicted grade that was lower than the average of what is there in hard exam data and I dont imagine that will happen in many cases.

randylonghorn

Polka_Dot wrote: »

Actually, that's not true. From the gov FAQs

"Students who opt to sit the Leaving Certificate examinations later in the year and who receive an improved CAO offer on foot of these results will also receive a deferred college offer to start their course in the 2021/22 academic year. If a candidate who has started first year of a course becomes entitled to a higher CAO offer and chooses to accept same in the following academic year, attendance for the first year on the new course would remain eligible for free fees and SUSI funding as appropriate."

Oh.

Thank you, Polka.

That is not the norm, and I had missed it.

However, the point about the other costs i.e. accommodation, etc., still holds.

rainbowtrout

Multipass wrote: »

I hope not, I appreciate that teachers didn’t want this thrust on them. My sons teachers have worked really hard with their students during the lockdown, and I believe they genuinely want the best for them. I also believe they’ll approach this nightmare as professionals, and be as fair as possible. But the flaws in the process are going to cause upset, and I just hope people direct their anger to where it is deserved - the people at the top who couldnt come up with a better solution than this mess.

But they won't because teachers usually end up being blamed for any educational fcuk up. Bear in mind that if Johnny doesn't get his course in college, he and his parents will be blaming the teachers who didn't give him high enough grades. They won't be blaming Joe McHugh.

rainbowtrout

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Is there seriously a suggestion out there that if LCs of 2020 choose to sit the paper in Nov/Oct/Dec/Jan or whenever that they are to be taught?

By the teachers they have finished with as of Friday 8th of May?

Those same teachers who will be focused on the LC class of 2021 and will have already full timetables?

Seriously?

I don't think it's quite that simple. Will they all be classed as external students or short term repeats within their current school? If they have subjects which involve a practical who will sign off on that practical? It mightn't be a case of providing ongoing tuition, but there will be some accountability along the way. The students will be in no mans land as they are not run of the mill students, they will be sitting LC 2020 just at a later date.

rainbowtrout

Choochtown wrote: »

Have you a link for this bit Rainbowtrout?

As per the guidelines. Section 11.

After the results are issued, students will be able to see the final mark that led to their
grade.

If I award a student an O6 which is a passing grade, and the DES decide to move the grades downwards to fit the bell curve and give that student an O7, it will be a fail.