Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Why is the proposal August? If schools have all results in for 29th May to the dept why would it take them 10 weeks to process? Surely it will be excel or similar automated processes? The discussions part is done

I imagine if there is a committee set up in the DES as was outlined then there will be human input into it as much as there is computer input.

Easy to chuck all the grades into a computer for each subject and see how it fits the usual curve. If it doesn't (most likely) it could be adjusted (downwards I presume). But after that I would imagine if they are moving a certain percentage down (particularly to fail grades), then the school profiling aspect will come into play to see what that school's typical grades are and what affect an adjustment will have on them.

That's probably the bit that will take the longest.

byronbay2

randylonghorn wrote: »

They should be aware that if they do that, they will end up paying full fees for first year in 2021, as it will be the second time they will be doing first year of an undergraduate degree.

Plus all the accommodation costs etc. of an extra year in college.

Apart altogether from the fact that they are counting their eggs before they're hatched, this is financially a pretty bad plan.

I'm sorry for your daughter, byron, I'm sorry for all of them!

As I said here and elsewhere last Friday, the plan "to end uncertainty" was guaranteed to increase it exponentially.

You can't, I assume we're talking about students who miss their first choice this year, but really want it, so sit the written exams in Autumn in the hope of getting it next year.

Students who opt to sit the Leaving Certificate examinations later in the year and who receive an improved CAO offer on foot of these results will also receive a deferred college offer to start their course in the 2021/22 academic year. If a candidate who has started first year of a course becomes entitled to a higher CAO offer and chooses to accept same in the following academic year, attendance for the first year on the new course would remain eligible for free fees and SUSI funding as appropriate

rainbowtrout

Purefrank128 wrote: »

From what the Taoiseach and Minister said, the alternative to the calculated grades proposal was to run a version of the LC in July/August that would not have resembled a conventional LC. So what would have been so bad about that?

Say every typical student (studying six, seven or eight subjects) nominated their best four. A computer picked two of these at random. Each student sat a 1 hour exam in each of the two subjects picked for them. The exam covered the whole syllabus, with some choice to allow for students who have not completed their courses.

So each student is examined for a total of two hours. Would that not have been manageable?

Of course this solution would not have been optimal. It would have been like deciding the World Cup Final on a penalty shootout - not ideal, but the best solution available when time and circumstances dictate that playing a full replay is not possible. Certainly better than asking the referee of a friendly match held a few months earlier to decide which team was worthier, which is equivalent to getting a teacher to predict a grade based on performances in previous house exams and class/home work.

Yes, running a modified LC such as this would not have solved the apparent problem of students having different experiences with remote learning since March - some with poor broadband, noisy households, teachers unable to fully engage. But students have different experiences of education all the time - better/worse schools, better/worse teachers - and that doesn't stop us from examining them.

Apologies for continuing the sporting metaphor, but my opinion is that the government lacked the political balls to stand up to the crazy "cancel the LC" lobby. They should have gone with a short, sharp "penalty shootout" version of the LC. Too late now. Bye-bye Joe.

To add to that, they could have run with four subjects, and ditched the grade bands for this year and awarded an actual percentage mark which would have been equivalent to points (HL 100 down to 30, and OL 60 down to 0), and then your points score would have been a precise figure. It would have helped to sort out points scores where there would have been a glut of people on the same mark.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To add to that, they could have run with four subjects, and ditched the grade bands for this year and awarded an actual percentage mark which would have been equivalent to points (HL 100 down to 30, and OL 60 down to 0), and then your points score would have been a precise figure. It would have helped to sort out points scores where there would have been a glut of people on the same mark.

I suppose if he has actually bothered to consult with teachers earlier in the process (or at any stage really ) he might actually have got some idea of plans that may have worked

pbthevet

Basically this leaving cert is a complete lotto. Results mean nothing. Ur either going to be lucky or not.

Absolute horrible way to treat the students after all their work. Going to be a huge kick in the balls for the many that dont get their first choice course.

Result will be huge levels repeating. Are schools ready for this? Is capacity there?

Whats the point in repeating in late 2020 when u wont be able to start college anyway. Might as well just to lc with class of 2021.

Rosita

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If the solicitors of this world push for that and that only - then students will do worse than they would have done in the leaving.

This totally negates the very clear statement that the teacher is to use his or her professional opinion on how the candidate would have done in June, not how they were doing in February.

Dead right. A teacher's judgement would I think be to do with situations where for some reason or other a student's performance does not reflect their ability and the teacher might intervene.

On the other hand if the solicitor's approach is the one in play then teachers don't even have to get involved. Just refer the management to vsware or whatever system and its already done.

mirrorwall14

I've heard of one school already where the principal sent the staff the grade band already calculated and told teachers to pick the percentage.... Could just be chinese whispers though

randylonghorn

byronbay2 wrote: »

Students who opt to sit the Leaving Certificate examinations later in the year and who receive an improved CAO offer on foot of these results will also receive a deferred college offer to start their course in the 2021/22 academic year. If a candidate who has started first year of a course becomes entitled to a higher CAO offer and chooses to accept same in the following academic year, attendance for the first year on the new course would remain eligible for free fees and SUSI funding as appropriate

Yes, Polka pointed out to me that there were different arrangements in place on that for this year. Sorry, I missed that one in the middle of all this shambles.

There's still a hell of a cost involved in undertaking an extra year of college outside of the actual fees.

jimmytwotimes 2013

[

Result will be huge levels repeating. Are schools ready for this? Is capacity there?

.[/quote]

Hard to see how, capacity will be affected by social distancing. Of all the years you wouldn't want a flood of repeats.

A school's teacher allocation also based on the previous years numbers so some special dispensation from the minister would nlbe required from the minister to provide extra staff if needed.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Dead right. A teacher's judgement would I think be to do with situations where for some reason or other a student's performance does not reflect their ability and the teacher might intervene.

On the other hand if the solicitor's approach is the one in play then teachers don't even have to get involved. Just refer the management to vsware or whatever system and its already done.

I can't see there being too many legal cases where a teacher has marked a student at their grade average or above as they have followed the guidelines.

E.g. if a student is 68 average based on house exams and a teacher gives a mark in the H3 band on the reasoning that they would have improved by a minimum of 2% in the exams, I'm not sure where a student could go with that.

Treppen

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I finished the two courses I teach on March 10th.

Have been revising since.

Gotcha.
Then the students have no cause to be looking for tuition once September is gone.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't see there being too many legal cases where a teacher has marked a student at their grade average or above as they have followed the guidelines.

E.g. if a student is 68 average based on house exams and a teacher gives a mark in the H3 band on the reasoning that they would have improved by a minimum of 2% in the exams, I'm not sure where a student could go with that.

It’s the ones that have wild fluctuations that cause the headaches

Shn99

Have had a few days to digest this. Really hope they scrap the idea of "if you fail maths you fail your LC". I calculated my average maths grade going by past tests (xmas, summer, mocks ect) and I am just scraping a pass. Started grinds after my mocks but sure look it. So many more out there like me, just going to be months of worrying and anxiety. At least if we sat an exam we would have a feel as to how we did...so many questions to be answered, more than there was for the plan to postpone IMO. The ISSU should be disbanded too, clearly went in to these discussions with an agenda which was to get PGs, their integrity has been seriously undermined.

Purefrank128

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't see there being too many legal cases where a teacher has marked a student at their grade average or above as they have followed the guidelines.

E.g. if a student is 68 average based on house exams and a teacher gives a mark in the H3 band on the reasoning that they would have improved by a minimum of 2% in the exams, I'm not sure where a student could go with that.

Ok, but what if there were two students who averaged 68% based on house exams and the teacher gave Student A a H3 and Student B a H2? Or what if the teacher gave both a H3, but gave A 76% and gave B 77%? Or what if the teacher gave both students 77% but ranked B above A? Would Student A have a case in any of these circumstances if the different teacher generated percentage and/or rank led ultimately to a lower DES grade for Student A?

Treppen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I've heard of one school already where the principal sent the staff the grade band already calculated and told teachers to pick the percentage.... Could just be chinese whispers though

That's a bit salty
Onto the Union with that one

Treppen

In my educational opinion, some solicitors are full of ####.
The clue is in the name.

Solicitation is a request for something, usually money. If you buy a fancy new house, expect a phone call from the local charity with a solicitation for a donation. Solicitation comes from solicit, which means "to request," or "to entreat." So solicitation is the act of requesting.

If they are going to put anyone on the stand they'll need an expert to give credence to their claims.
What's another educational expert going to know , they didn't teach the student. Once you can justify it in your own professional opinion the they can *********####£##£**#£££. and chase some ambulance somewhere else.

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

It’s the ones that have wild fluctuations that cause the headaches

True, but I'm not sure any teacher is going to mark a student lower than the average they got in school over two years. A student there would quite rightly have a case, when there are results there in black and white, but if a teacher is marking at the average or above it they have given their professional opinion.

km79

Treppen wrote: »

In my educational opinion, some solicitors are full of ####.
The clue is in the name.

Solicitation is a request for something, usually money. If you buy a fancy new house, expect a phone call from the local charity with a solicitation for a donation. Solicitation comes from solicit, which means "to request," or "to entreat." So solicitation is the act of requesting.

If they are going to put anyone on the stand they'll need an expert to give credence to their claims.
What's another educational expert going to know , they didn't teach the student. Once you can justify it in your own professional opinion the they can *********####£##£**#£££. and chase some ambulance somewhere else.

I think it’s outrageous that they even have solicitors on and asking their opinion at this stage
Talk about **** stirring
Might be more in their line to have a few teachers on

randylonghorn

Shn99 wrote: »

Have had a few days to digest this. Really hope they scrap the idea of "if you fail maths you fail your LC".

Um, I think that's gone already tbh.

The problem can be that a lot of third-level courses will look for at least a pass in maths.

Shn99 wrote: »

The ISSU should be disbanded too, clearly went in to these discussions with an agenda which was to get PGs, their integrity has been seriously undermined.

Interesting word in that context ...

maynooth_rules

Was there not logic in coming out and saying that, this is Plan B, we will decide on June 3rd whether to implement it. That was the date the exams were due to start, so students would have been studying to that date anyway. It would ave ensured that at least all 6th year material would have been covered. Its just such a mess at the moment. Stop teaching 6th years immediately, even if course not finished.

Rosita

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Was there not logic in coming out and saying that, this is Plan B, we will decide on June 3rd whether to implement it. That was the date the exams were due to start, so students would have been studying to that date anyway. It would ave ensured that at least all 6th year material would have been covered. Its just such a mess at the moment. Stop teaching 6th years immediately, even if course not finished.

I assumed the plan was to pull the plug in early June if needed, hence the delay in issuing a timetable until then.

However, Varadker's failure to address it in his most recent statement brought all the apprehension to a head.

jayo76

Other thing that has just come to mind really with this today is the opinion students themselves have of what their likely grades will be. Like I know so many times in our school anyway even students who get say in the 60s in exams through 5th year, mocks even, have the belief that they are likely to get H2 and even H1 come June. This comes up even when we have 6th years at parent teacher meeting with their parents.

Nothing wrong with that, everyone should aim high and after all these are 18 year olds trying to judge themselves, however I do find at times there is a detachment from the reality of the work and level needed to get H2 or higher. Now it works out that in most cases the exam in June unfortunately doesnt bring that huge jump but its the exam that brings that home not a teacher prediction. I know for sure I have couple of students who see themselves a little above the reality, other experiences of this for teachers Im interested in?

jimmytwotimes 2013

jayo76 wrote: »

Other thing that has just come to mind really with this today is the opinion students themselves have of what their likely grades will be. Like I know so many times in our school anyway even students who get say in the 60s in exams through 5th year, mocks even, have the belief that they are likely to get H2 and even H1 come June. This comes up even when we have 6th years at parent teacher meeting with their parents.

Nothing wrong with that, everyone should aim high and after all these are 18 year olds trying to judge themselves, however I do find at times there is a detachment from the reality of the work and level needed to get H2 or higher. Now it works out that in most cases the exam in June unfortunately doesnt bring that huge jump but its the exam that brings that home not a teacher prediction. I know for sure I have couple of students who see themselves a little above the reality, other experiences of this for teachers Im interested in?

We'd have a good few who are absolutely deluded and their parents too

CrabRevolution

jayo76 wrote: »

Other thing that has just come to mind really with this today is the opinion students themselves have of what their likely grades will be. Like I know so many times in our school anyway even students who get say in the 60s in exams through 5th year, mocks even, have the belief that they are likely to get H2 and even H1 come June. This comes up even when we have 6th years at parent teacher meeting with their parents.

Nothing wrong with that, everyone should aim high and after all these are 18 year olds trying to judge themselves, however I do find at times there is a detachment from the reality of the work and level needed to get H2 or higher. Now it works out that in most cases the exam in June unfortunately doesnt bring that huge jump but its the exam that brings that home not a teacher prediction. I know for sure I have couple of students who see themselves a little above the reality, other experiences of this for teachers Im interested in?

Based on the anecdotes and hyperbole about this disaster, I'm taking it that in a few years time we won't be able to swing a cat without hitting dozens of neurosurgeons and quantum physicists in Ireland, such is the quality of the LC class of 2020.

In seriousness though I do sympathise even with the deluded. Having no real LC not only takes away a chance to do as well as expected, but it also takes away any chance at fluking a great result in the exam.

TheDriver

Like the LC and pubs opening and schools, people want a decision that shouldnt be made at present. And when a decision is forced, everyone is outraged. And the decision is changed and everyone is outraged. And everyone wishes we waited for the correct decision.....

CrabRevolution

TheDriver wrote: »

Like the LC and pubs opening and schools, people want a decision that shouldnt be made at present. And when a decision is forced, everyone is outraged. And the decision is changed and everyone is outraged. And everyone wishes we waited for the correct decision.....

I noticed this very early in the outbreak. Politicians and the media don't want to be seen to back the wrong answer, or admit that a perfect answer may not exist. In unprecedented, difficult to forecast situations such as this there's a huge chance any given solution will turn out to be the wrong one.

But they still need to be seen to be loud and critical. The solution is to instead demand "clarity" and "certainty", because these are ironically meaningless, nebulous phrases that involve no commitment on their part. This way they can criticise the government without having to give any answers themselves, and still claim to be right later on.

History Queen

Just watching the Sunday Game... a lot of our politicians could do with taking a leaf from the GAA President's book on how to communicate. Very clear on what his redline issues were (player welfare), what steps they were taking in the decision making process and who they were taking their advice from. Also very clear on what would have to happen and when for GAA to resume and an acceptance and acknowledgement that plans might have to changeand when that would happen if so.

Obviously totally different situation dealing with a sporting organisation but I thought there was excellent leadership and reassurance on display.

Clear concise communication is a breath of fresh air these days!

rainbowtrout

Purefrank128 wrote: »

Ok, but what if there were two students who averaged 68% based on house exams and the teacher gave Student A a H3 and Student B a H2? Or what if the teacher gave both a H3, but gave A 76% and gave B 77%? Or what if the teacher gave both students 77% but ranked B above A? Would Student A have a case in any of these circumstances if the different teacher generated percentage and/or rank led ultimately to a lower DES grade for Student A?

You’d hope it wouldn’t come to that but it probably will.

acequion

TheDriver wrote: »

Like the LC and pubs opening and schools, people want a decision that shouldnt be made at present. And when a decision is forced, everyone is outraged. And the decision is changed and everyone is outraged. And everyone wishes we waited for the correct decision.....

We live in an age of wanting everything NOW. So even in the midst of a global pandemic of a potentially fatal disease that none of us can say we won't catch or god forbid, won't die of, people still want their "clarity" and "certainty" and they want it NOW.

But that's people. You would actually expect the political leaders to be a bit above that,to have balls and show leadership and categorically tell people that no, sorry, they can't have that certainty or clarity NOW. It really dismays me to see them pander to popular demand again and again. The good Friday announcement, all of which was changed, was pandering to the demand for "clarity" and the cancellation announcement was exactly the same. You'd have to worry about what will come next.

jayo76 wrote: »

Other thing that has just come to mind really with this today is the opinion students themselves have of what their likely grades will be. Like I know so many times in our school anyway even students who get say in the 60s in exams through 5th year, mocks even, have the belief that they are likely to get H2 and even H1 come June. This comes up even when we have 6th years at parent teacher meeting with their parents.

Nothing wrong with that, everyone should aim high and after all these are 18 year olds trying to judge themselves, however I do find at times there is a detachment from the reality of the work and level needed to get H2 or higher. Now it works out that in most cases the exam in June unfortunately doesnt bring that huge jump but its the exam that brings that home not a teacher prediction. I know for sure I have couple of students who see themselves a little above the reality, other experiences of this for teachers Im interested in?

When I was going to school, many moons ago, there was a lot of talk about "brains" and being "brainy" as in "you'd have to be very brainy to do that" or "she wouldn't have the brains to be able for that" or "that crowd in that class are really brainy." Sounds very unPC in today's world but it made sense. Not having the "brains" affects a student's ability to attain certain grades. Fact. And in my day that was completely accepted and acceptable. Now so many parents just cannot accept that the problem very often is that the kid is punching way above his weight or quite simply doesn't have the brains.

Realistic expectations along with the acceptance of uncertainty are qualities of a bygone age.

bren2001

acequion wrote: »

When I was going to school, many moons ago, there was a lot of talk about "brains" and being "brainy" as in "you'd have to be very brainy to do that" or "she wouldn't have the brains to be able for that" or "that crowd in that class are really brainy." Sounds very unPC in today's world but it made sense. Not having the "brains" affects a student's ability to attain certain grades. Fact. And in my day that was completely accepted and acceptable. Now so many parents just cannot accept that the problem very often is that the kid is punching way above his weight or quite simply doesn't have the brains.

Realistic expectations along with the acceptance of uncertainty are qualities of a bygone age.

I don't think it makes any sense at all. I think it's absolutely lunacy to suggest to anyone that they are not smart enough to do something (within reason i.e. any university course). It's never about intelligence, it's about hard work and desire. Young people who put in the hard work, typically get their rewards. Some just get a head start and are picked up when they fall i.e. those from affluent backgrounds. However, plenty of young people don't want to put in the required level of work to develop and gain the required skills to be an expert in something. I think there is a huge difference there.

I've seen very smart young adults come into college and fail miserably. I've seen my fair share of young people grind their way to the end of a degree. Usually scrapping over the line but I often find their final year projects far above others. Talking to them after leaving university, they are usually the ones who go on to achieve quite a lot. Plenty of people write them off as not smart. The "brainy" kids work very hard and have done for a large portion of their life.

I grew up believing I could achieving anything if I worked hard. It is my belief, that kids today grow up believing they can achieve anything. Massive difference between the two.