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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]
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I don't think it makes any sense at all. I think it's absolutely lunacy to suggest to anyone that they are not smart enough to do something (within reason i.e. any university course). It's never about intelligence, it's about hard work and desire. Young people who put in the hard work, typically get their rewards. Some just get a head start and are picked up when they fall i.e. those from affluent backgrounds. However, plenty of young people don't want to put in the required level of work to develop and gain the required skills to be an expert in something. I think there is a huge difference there.
I've seen very smart young adults come into college and fail miserably. I've seen my fair share of young people grind their way to the end of a degree. Usually scrapping over the line but I often find their final year projects far above others. Talking to them after leaving university, they are usually the ones who go on to achieve quite a lot. Plenty of people write them off as not smart. The "brainy" kids work very hard and have done for a large portion of their life.
I grew up believing I could achieving anything if I worked hard. It is my belief, that kids today grow up believing they can achieve anything. Massive difference between the two.
It is ALL about intelligence. If it wasn't then we could all be brain surgeons and scoring the top in Mensa. Obviously we all can't. Just as we're not all beautiful. And we're not all tall. And we're not all gifted pianists or gifted painters or gifted athletes.
Your notion that it's all about hard work and desire is precisely why there are so many broken hearts every August, precisely why many frustrating and pointless conversations are had trying to diplomatically tell parents that the kid is punching too far above his weight.
Hard work and desire go a long way. True. But without the necessary talent or intelligence it won't quite take you there. A concept many fail to grasp.0 -
I don't think it makes any sense at all. I think it's absolutely lunacy to suggest to anyone that they are not smart enough to do something (within reason i.e. any university course). It's never about intelligence, it's about hard work and desire. Young people who put in the hard work, typically get their rewards. Some just get a head start and are picked up when they fall i.e. those from affluent backgrounds. However, plenty of young people don't want to put in the required level of work to develop and gain the required skills to be an expert in something. I think there is a huge difference there.
There's a cut off to how far hard work can take you. There are some people who just don't have the ability. If hard work was all it took then everyone would be capable of getting 600 points. The very fact that we have HL and OL for subjects tells it's own story.
I'm all for students aiming high, and working towards something they want but people have their limitations.
You see this most obviously in the world of sport. Lots of athletes have access to the best coaches, facilities, equipment and nutritional information etc. They all train as hard as Usain Bolt. They are not all as good as him. Hard work gets you so far, but ability has a large part to play in it too.0 -
I don't think it makes any sense at all. I think it's absolutely lunacy to suggest to anyone that they are not smart enough to do something (within reason i.e. any university course). It's never about intelligence, it's about hard work and desire. Young people who put in the hard work, typically get their rewards. Some just get a head start and are picked up when they fall i.e. those from affluent backgrounds. However, plenty of young people don't want to put in the required level of work to develop and gain the required skills to be an expert in something. I think there is a huge difference there.
I've seen very smart young adults come into college and fail miserably. I've seen my fair share of young people grind their way to the end of a degree. Usually scrapping over the line but I often find their final year projects far above others. Talking to them after leaving university, they are usually the ones who go on to achieve quite a lot. Plenty of people write them off as not smart. The "brainy" kids work very hard and have done for a large portion of their life.
I grew up believing I could achieving anything if I worked hard. It is my belief, that kids today grow up believing they can achieve anything. Massive difference between the two.
I disagree about input and output, and I've seen it a lot in school. Parents have the student at the edge of mental breakdown,e.g. not allowed talk to friends after school until the parents turn on the WiFi at 7pm on a Saturday evening, weekend then is taken up with more study and grinds. Parents hear about an extra subject that's an 'easy A' so more grinds ensue. The parents think if they apply the input they will get the desired output. The student believes it too.
And often they might get the high points course, but by all accounts their university experience isn't fun.
Opened my eyes quite a bit and how lucky I was that my parents or school were never quite that bad. We were just left at it.
Sometimes you'll never be an A student no matter how much work you put in.
And of course you'll read the posts about "I only ever got Cs from my teacher in school but now I'm an author" etc.0 -
jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »We'd have a good few who are absolutely deluded and their parents too
I work in a disadvantaged area, plenty of bright students obviously but high achieving students are not in the majority. This brings about two issues.
Students seeing those around them not working overly hard, not being that bothered, not achieving etc. Meanwhile they are, and therefore they think they're H1 standard when in reality they don't see the hard work that 625 point students are putting in in other schools.
Secondly, parents who left school before the LC and see their children continuing beyond where they would have, and as a result they conclude that their child is borderline gifted. Very difficult to speak to those parents and discuss realistic grades.0 -
It is ALL about intelligence. If it wasn't then we could all be brain surgeons and scoring the top in Mensa. Obviously we all can't. Just as we're not all beautiful. And we're not all tall. And we're not all gifted pianists or gifted painters or gifted athletes.
Your notion that it's all about hard work and desire is precisely why there are so many broken hearts every August, precisely why many frustrating and pointless conversations are had trying to diplomatically tell parents that the kid is punching too far above his weight.
Hard work and desire go a long way. True. But without the necessary talent or intelligence it won't quite take you there. A concept many fail to grasp.
Well it's not ALL about intelligence, most people have to work hard. It's not pot luck when you are born, your life is not confined to some random lottery in that context. It's no coincidence that kids from working class backgrounds don't dominate the 500+ courses like kids from affluent backgrounds. That's not genetics, that's not intelligence, that's privilege. Those kids are given more opportunities to succeed. If they fall behind, they are given the resources, time, and space to catch up. They are not more intelligent. There is plenty of evidence to support that and it's why universities like DCU have the access program.
I find that view and that concept utterly abhorrent. Anyone can be a brain surgeon, anyone can be an engineer, anyone can be physio, anyone can be a dentist.
Can anyone be a premier league footballer, or a world class athelete, or a world class composer? No, and that is a very different argument.
Anyone can sit down, study a subject, and pass an exam. They may need to work harder than someone else, the path might be longer, they may have to go another route but to say someone cannot achieve a University degree in something is utterly ridiculous to me.
Some kids realise this early enough, work hard, and get what they want. Others realise it too late and there isn't enough time to make up the ground. Hence, they are disappointed in August. They are capable of it though. That is the crux of my point.
I have a PhD. By your metric, I am very intelligent. I don't believe I'm smarter than anyone else, I just bloody worked harder than everyone else to get there. I would find it very insulting if someone suggested I got here because I'm smart. I'm not. If I wanted to get into Mensa, or become a medical doctor, or a pilot, or an astronaut, I can. I just have no desire to put in the time. It's no different for anyone else. It's about desire, hunger, and hard work.0 -
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Apologies for interjecting but, can a student change from Honours to Pass? If so, what is the procedure to do so? I have looked it up can’t find an answer anywhere0
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I disagree about input and output, and I've seen it a lot in school. Parents have the student at the edge of mental breakdown,e.g. not allowed talk to friends after school until the parents turn on the WiFi at 7pm on a Saturday evening, weekend then is taken up with more study and grinds. Parents hear about an extra subject that's an 'easy A' so more grinds ensue. The parents think if they apply the input they will get the desired output. The student believes it too.
And often they might get the high points course, but by all accounts their university experience isn't fun.
Opened my eyes quite a bit and how lucky I was that my parents or school were never quite that bad. We were just left at it.
Sometimes you'll never be an A student no matter how much work you put in.
And of course you'll read the posts about "I only ever got Cs from my teacher in school but now I'm an author" etc.
I don't disagree with you. The line you've bolded is a gross simplification of what I believe. There is quite a bit more nuance to it than that all right.
The input output relationship needs to be self-driven, not done by parents. Young people also lack experience in how to achieve their goals which comes with age. There's a whole heap of other caveats to it.
There's also a massive time lag. If students work today, the results may not be seen for months or years. You cannot go from failing junior cert papers to 600 points, it's too steep a curve.
I do think anyone can be an A student in a subject but the realities of life may get in the way. I think anyone is capable of getting a degree in any subject they are passionate about. The road to getting it may be much much harder. Their own intelligence is not what is stopping them. It's the lack of proper groundwork.0 -
Well it's not ALL about intelligence, most people have to work hard. It's not pot luck when you are born, your life is not confined to some random lottery in that context. It's no coincidence that kids from working class backgrounds don't dominate the 500+ courses like kids from affluent backgrounds. That's not genetics, that's not intelligence, that's privilege. Those kids are given more opportunities to succeed. If they fall behind, they are given the resources, time, and space to catch up. They are not more intelligent. There is plenty of evidence to support that and it's why universities like DCU have the access program.
I find that view and that concept utterly abhorrent. Anyone can be a brain surgeon, anyone can be an engineer, anyone can be physio, anyone can be a dentist.
Can anyone be a premier league footballer, or a world class athelete, or a world class composer? No, and that is a very different argument.
Anyone can sit down, study a subject, and pass an exam. They may need to work harder than someone else, the path might be longer, they may have to go another route but to say someone cannot achieve a University degree in something is utterly ridiculous to me.
Some kids realise this early enough, work hard, and get what they want. Others realise it too late and there isn't enough time to make up the ground. Hence, they are disappointed in August. They are capable of it though. That is the crux of my point.
I have a PhD. By your metric, I am very intelligent. I don't believe I'm smarter than anyone else, I just bloody worked harder than everyone else to get there. I would find it very insulting if someone suggested I got here because I'm smart. I'm not. If I wanted to get into Mensa, or become a medical doctor, or a pilot, or an astronaut, I can. I just have no desire to put in the time. It's no different for anyone else. It's about desire, hunger, and hard work.
It's very difficult to have rational debate with you as you go on a rant and bring everything back down to your own personal experience. Using terms like "utterly abhorrent" in an argument about the equation between hard work and ability is ridiculously emotive. People who base everything on personal experience often fail to see the wood for the trees.
Good on you if you have a PhD. And if you have a PhD then I'd wager that you are very smart and very intelligent. And if you think you're not then that's a whole other debate ie self perception. Which ironically touches on your argument.
Also good on you if you went far with desire, hunger and hard work. But it mostly is not enough. This notion that anyone can be anything is constantly being disproved. Every single year I see hard working kids not achieving those very high points which they think they can achieve. And being heart broken as a result.
And how you deduce that intellectual talent is somehow different to other talents is beyond me. Talent is talent. It can be sharpened, honed and developed but equality doesn't exist in talent. The evidence of that is everywhere. And of course there are other variables when it comes to achievement. But that's not the argument here.0 -
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I find that view and that concept utterly abhorrent. Anyone can be a brain surgeon, anyone can be an engineer, anyone can be physio, anyone can be a dentist.
Can anyone be a premier league footballer, or a world class athelete, or a world class composer? No, and that is a very different argument.
Why is it a different argument? It takes hard work to be a world class athlete, footballer or composer, as well as talent/ability/intelligence whatever you would like to call it. Why are you saying anyone can be a brain surgeon, but not everyone can be a composer? That's completely daft.
Remember the people you are teaching in third level got there because of a selection process based largely on academic ability, some achieve their maximum score because of hard work, some underachieve in the LC because they don't put in the work but know they have enough ability to coast through. Some have well above average ability and they also put in the work and you see them at the upper end of the points chart.
You're not seeing the other end of the spectrum where no matter how many times you have explained something or got someone to practice a problem, they still don't get it.
I can do maths and science effortlessly. I have the drawing ability of a child, the type that still draws the sun in the top corner of the page and sheep are clouds with legs. I'm fine with that. If all it took was hard work then we would all be able to reproduce the Mona Lisa.0 -
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Apologies for interjecting but, can a student change from Honours to Pass? If so, what is the procedure to do so? I have looked it up can’t find an answer anywhere
No answer on that yet. I'm currently working off what they were entered for in January. Principal waiting for an answer back on it.0 -
Well it's not ALL about intelligence, most people have to work hard. It's not pot luck when you are born, your life is not confined to some random lottery in that context. It's no coincidence that kids from working class backgrounds don't dominate the 500+ courses like kids from affluent backgrounds. That's not genetics, that's not intelligence, that's privilege. Those kids are given more opportunities to succeed. If they fall behind, they are given the resources, time, and space to catch up. They are not more intelligent. There is plenty of evidence to support that and it's why universities like DCU have the access program.
I find that view and that concept utterly abhorrent. Anyone can be a brain surgeon, anyone can be an engineer, anyone can be physio, anyone can be a dentist.
Can anyone be a premier league footballer, or a world class athelete, or a world class composer? No, and that is a very different argument.
Anyone can sit down, study a subject, and pass an exam. They may need to work harder than someone else, the path might be longer, they may have to go another route but to say someone cannot achieve a University degree in something is utterly ridiculous to me.
Some kids realise this early enough, work hard, and get what they want. Others realise it too late and there isn't enough time to make up the ground. Hence, they are disappointed in August. They are capable of it though. That is the crux of my point.
I have a PhD. By your metric, I am very intelligent. I don't believe I'm smarter than anyone else, I just bloody worked harder than everyone else to get there. I would find it very insulting if someone suggested I got here because I'm smart. I'm not. If I wanted to get into Mensa, or become a medical doctor, or a pilot, or an astronaut, I can. I just have no desire to put in the time. It's no different for anyone else. It's about desire, hunger, and hard work.
You’re missing Acequions point. Working incredibly hard will help you reach the maximum of your own ability but it won’t get you to the very top unless you have natural intelligence. I teach Maths and I see it every single year. There will only be a couple of people in the class capable of getting a H1 and I’ll be able to tell you who they are after a couple of weeks. The rest will never get a H1, not if they were doing the leaving for 3 or 4 years. They might work really hard but they have a ceiling. I had a girl before that was the hardest worker I’ve ever seen. She got a C in Higher Maths which was an incredible result for her. She worked unbelievably hard, couldn’t have done anymore.
You seem to think people are saying that hard work won’t get you places. They aren’t saying that. It will get you places. It will get you into college and get you a job. But is everyone capable of getting the points to do medicine? Not a hope.
And then saying sport isn’t comparable is bizzare, it’s the exact same thing. If I trained as hard as Ronaldo or Messi all my life I’d be a good soccer player, better than I am but I wouldn’t be next or near their level because I don’t have the natural ability they have.0 -
Quick question - in the RTE news they said students would be evaluated on work done to march- previously it was until term end may.
So do projects due this week (may), that were/are part of the lc exam, have to be in this week- or will they be just discounted... a lot of work has gone into it.“Roll it back”
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CrabRevolution wrote: »I noticed this very early in the outbreak. Politicians and the media don't want to be seen to back the wrong answer, or admit that a perfect answer may not exist. In unprecedented, difficult to forecast situations such as this there's a huge chance any given solution will turn out to be the wrong one.
But they still need to be seen to be loud and critical. The solution is to instead demand "clarity" and "certainty", because these are ironically meaningless, nebulous phrases that involve no commitment on their part. This way they can criticise the government without having to give any answers themselves, and still claim to be right later on.
Couldn’t agree with you more. The week in politics was on this morning. The presenter asked Minister McHugh about the schools reopening in September. He said they would be looking into it, seeing what would be possible etc. The presenter then interjected that this wasn’t good enough and that parents needed clarity.
First of all how the hell does he know what the virus will be like then?
And secondly, why exactly do parents need clarity now about September?! They don’t need that clarity! They’d like to know, yes, but it’s just not possible.
It was this stupidity that got the LC cancelled. They announced it would start on the 29th of July. And then the media/parents/students were constantly on about needing clarity. After they being told what date it was starting! I’m finding all this “clarity” seeking nonsense infuriating and the politicians are worse to be pandering to it.0 -
Quick question - in the RTE news they said students would be evaluated on work done to march- previously it was until term end may.
So do projects due this week (may), that were/are part of the lc exam, have to be in this week- or will they be just discounted... a lot of work has gone into it.
I’m almost positive that I saw somewhere in the document that if students have it done that you can include it in your predicted grade for the students. My reading of it was that if a student had it done you give it what you think it would have got and then obviously also estimate the rest of the exam. And if another student hasn’t it done you just mark them out of 100% for the rest of it.0 -
Is there a deadline for this process? I can see more flip flops in the whole thing. Id advise everybody to be careful running around in a panic over this because I can see more changes coming down the tracks .
The whole subjectivity of classwork is a major issue.
Anybody in a DEIS school will tell you that getting is homework is a rare event.0 -
Realistic expectations along with the acceptance of uncertainty are qualities of a bygone age.
Completely agree on the total lack of realistic expectations among so many today. The amount of times in recent years that students who are just about getting by at Honours level have said to me oh I need a H3 or higher to get the points for my course next year is crazy. These are students who are barely able for the Honours paper. As I said before I am all for aiming high but the delusion you encounter every year as regards ability and/or work rate is unreal.
There is no acceptance that they are either simply not able for Honours Level or simply just not working hard enough or a mixture of both. In these students eyes it will magically happen for them, it never does in the exam. It is these students who without doubt will have issues with predicted grades.0 -
This is the thing, for me. I've a lot of reasonably able students, but their concept of a reasonable amount of work for a higher level student, compared to what is actually required, are rarely even in the same ballpark.There is no acceptance that they are either simply not able for Honours Level or simply just not working hard enough or a mixture of both. In these students eyes it will magically happen for them, it never does in the exam. It is these students who without doubt will have issues with predicted grades.0 -
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I have read a lot of the posts here, apologies if I repeat any points already made.
Teachers should be glad that we are doing this. It will be difficult to do and will pose many problems, but in the long run once this is finished I think that people other than teachers will realise that it is a bad idea to have teachers assessing their own students. This is an important thing given what was tried with JC and the upcoming review of LC.
We need continuous assessment that is done by SEC in any review of LC, but I don't think they want to pay for it.
I teach DCG. We finished a project and it was posted off to SEC months ago. My understanding is that they won't grade this, I have to give a predicted grade. The marking scheme for this is extremely vague. Will I be given more detailed guidance on how to assess this?
The issue around grades for subjects such as Construction that have practical and project work needs to be resolved quickly. What happens with a student who doesn't take their predicted grade? Will these projects need to be finished?0 -
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Is there a deadline for this process? I can see more flip flops in the whole thing. Id advise everybody to be careful running around in a panic over this because I can see more changes coming down the tracks .
The whole subjectivity of classwork is a major issue.
Anybody in a DEIS school will tell you that getting is homework is a rare event.
No firm deadline
It’s going to run into Mid June imo for the reasons you have said0 -
Here is why the exams couldnt go ahead in July
SEC spelling out the reasons
Many of which were pointed out here as soon as the proposal was announced
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0511/1137612-leaving-cert/0 -
This is the thing, for me. I've a lot of reasonably able students, but their concept of a reasonable amount of work for a higher level student, compared to what is actually required, are rarely even in the same ballpark.
I think students do put in a enormous amount of time but that time and work is spread across seven or sometimes eight subjects so the attention given to each subject is stretched more thinly than it deserves and what each teacher sees for their particular subject is not the full story .0 -
And if another student hasn’t it done you just mark them out of 100% for the rest of it.
Are you saying that if a student does not submit a project, the grade is predicted as if there was no project requirement in that subject for that student? That doesn't sound right to me.
If 40% of the mark for a subject is for a project and the student does not submit one, surely the max he/she can score on a predicted grade is 60% as final grade in that subject.0 -
I think students do put in a enormous amount of time but that time and work is spread across seven or sometimes eight subjects so the attention given to each subject is stretched more thinly than it deserves and what each teacher sees for their particular subject is not the full story .
Isn’t that the whole point? They are all taking at least 6 subjects at LC. They are being assessed on the basis of that being their workload. The implication of your post is if they had less work to do they would get higher grades. Well it would be easier to do more work in a subject if they had less of them.
Some students manage to give plenty attention to all their subjects and keep up their grades. But most don’t.0 -
Here is why the exams couldnt go ahead in July
SEC spelling out the reasons
Many of which were pointed out here as soon as the proposal was announced
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0511/1137612-leaving-cert/
They probably just read the boards thread and copied and pasted it.0 -
I think students do put in a enormous amount of time but that time and work is spread across seven or sometimes eight subjects so the attention given to each subject is stretched more thinly than it deserves and what each teacher sees for their particular subject is not the full story .
Agreed and I for one am not doubting that many students, not all mind do work very hard and even with that work do continue to struggle. My fear is around the idea that many many studens simply do not understand what it takes to get a H2 and above, even H3. I have seen it countless times where students who do work hard, ignore teacher advice on their levels as the career guidance teacher told them they need to be getting H3 across the board to get their course in University.0 -
Solicitor on rte news saying its imperative that students have access to the process by which teachers came to the grade they as the individual teacher calculated for the student. If that is the case it has to be based on cold, hard existing data and nothing else, in house exams and mocks.
Are the media hell bent on f*cking up every decision? They led the charge to this cluster and now will dig up all manner of "experts" to undermine this as well. Mind you its easy to undermine it but still, just let it be and let people get on with it now. Its a decision at least.
Any they're failure to research into this secondary students survey that everyone seemed to put so much credence into was journalism at its worst.0 -
This.rainbowtrout wrote: »Isn’t that the whole point? They are all taking at least 6 subjects at LC. They are being assessed on the basis of that being their workload. The implication of your post is if they had less work to do they would get higher grades. Well it would be easier to do more work in a subject if they had less of them.
Some students manage to give plenty attention to all their subjects and keep up their grades. But most don’t.
I suspect more students would find time to put the required work in if they didn't all have personal distraction devices in their pockets, and televisions in their rooms. We didn't have those distractions when I was doing the leaving cert (phones were only just coming in, and it was rare for 18 year olds to have their own television).
I'm not saying students shouldn't have those things, but they're not an excuse for doing less work. Both parents and students need to take responsibility for that.0 -
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rainbowtrout wrote: »Isn’t that the whole point? They are all taking at least 6 subjects at LC. They are being assessed on the basis of that being their workload. The implication of your post is if they had less work to do they would get higher grades. Well it would be easier to do more work in a subject if they had less of them.
Some students manage to give plenty attention to all their subjects and keep up their grades. But most don’t.
Each subject stands alone though and is examined as such. But the student carries them all. Some subjects eg English, History have an enormous breath demanding huge amounts of time and then any particular student may not be particularly given to say Maths or Irish so may need hours to learn very little. I don't think any teacher considers the other subjects when they consider the amount of work their own subject needs. And I'm sticking with saying, overall, students nowadays work really hard and are under huge pressure in the points competition.0
This discussion has been closed.
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