Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

eastie17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't see there being too many legal cases where a teacher has marked a student at their grade average or above as they have followed the guidelines.

E.g. if a student is 68 average based on house exams and a teacher gives a mark in the H3 band on the reasoning that they would have improved by a minimum of 2% in the exams, I'm not sure where a student could go with that.

But dont we always over the last few years make decisions based on what the minority might do with vague mutterings about "insurance" or "getting sued"? So I'd unfortunately be thinking they'll end up giving directions based on the odd chance of a court case rather than what makes the most sense

RealJohn

km79 wrote: »

Here is why the exams couldnt go ahead in July
SEC spelling out the reasons
Many of which were pointed out here as soon as the proposal was announced
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0511/1137612-leaving-cert/

I'm a bit too busy to get into this right now, but I still disagree that we know at this stage that they can't go ahead.

eastie17

jayo76 wrote: »

Completely agree on the total lack of realistic expectations among so many today. The amount of times in recent years that students who are just about getting by at Honours level have said to me oh I need a H3 or higher to get the points for my course next year is crazy. These are students who are barely able for the Honours paper. As I said before I am all for aiming high but the delusion you encounter every year as regards ability and/or work rate is unreal.

There is no acceptance that they are either simply not able for Honours Level or simply just not working hard enough or a mixture of both. In these students eyes it will magically happen for them, it never does in the exam. It is these students who without doubt will have issues with predicted grades.

Yes but I'd wager those were likely the ones clamoring for the exam to be done away with hoping it will happen by magic instead. And wait for the moaning when they dont get it as you said.

doc_17

eastie17 wrote: »

Are the media hell bent on f*cking up every decision? They led the charge to this cluster and now will dig up all manner of "experts" to undermine this as well. Mind you its easy to undermine it but still, just let it be and let people get on with it now. Its a decision at least.
Any they're failure to research into this secondary students survey that everyone seemed to put so much credence into was journalism at its worst.

In fairness, it is the job of the media to question the government. They should do it more.

See Mary O’Rourke, former FF minister, was on the Brendan shown last week and her son was on it yesterday in his capacity as a PWC (I think) worker. The wee circle in Ireland is still strong!! And that’s where the media should be questioning a little bit more.

Wombatman

Reading this thread over the last few days as a parent of a 5th year student.

There is a perception out there, that secondary school teachers are a bunch of regressive, workshy, unionised me feiners.

It is clear from this thread, that this couldn't be further from the truth. Student care and welfare appear to be at the heart of most lines of discussion. Very encouraging for a parent to hear.

If I was a teacher I would be very disheartened with how you have been dealt with in all of this. There has been a clear lack of consultation and communication, both from your unions and the department. (Your unions actually seem to have been out unioned by the students group.) There is also an exception that you will fall into line with any new arrangement, and accept any new workload, arising from the new plan. You would be well within your rights to be pi$$ing and moaning about this, but in the face of it all, your concern for the student, seem to always bubble to the top.

Maybe teachers who post on here are not a representative sample of the overall teaching body. Would be a great it they were. Anyway thanks teachers and keep up the good work.

History Queen

Wombatman- thank you.

Newbie20

Comer1 wrote: »

Are you saying that if a student does not submit a project, the grade is predicted as if there was no project requirement in that subject for that student? That doesn't sound right to me.

If 40% of the mark for a subject is for a project and the student does not submit one, surely the max he/she can score on a predicted grade is 60% as final grade in that subject.

Have a look at this from the 12 page document. It says “in the case of coursework that has already been completed, a teachers overall estimate should incorporate the mark they think this coursework would have achieved if it had been marked in the usual way”

So if it has been completed then you count it. Now it doesn’t say specifically what happens if you haven’t it done (of course the usual vagueness) but my reading of it is that because the dates had been pushed out for coursework to be completed that they didnt’t have to have had it finished by now? And as a result can’t be punished for not having had it completed by the date they cancelled the Leaving. But then there is also the question of can they finish it off now? I could be wrong with my interpretation of it. And this might only apply to subjects like History and Geography.

Random sample

I think for any coursework not completed you give the mark you think the student would have gotten if it was completed. So you are grading them based on their drafts or practical work that has been done in class.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Each subject stands alone though and is examined as such. But the student carries them all. Some subjects eg English, History have an enormous breath demanding huge amounts of time and then any particular student may not be particularly given to say Maths or Irish so may need hours to learn very little. I don't think any teacher considers the other subjects when they consider the amount of work their own subject needs. And I'm sticking with saying, overall, students nowadays work really hard and are under huge pressure in the points competition.

English is a core subject and they are all doing it except perhaps a few repeats. History is an option and they know what they are signing up for. Each subject has it's own workload. The student doing Engineering or Construction studies spends hours and hours making the project for LC. It's not something that can be crammed either at the last minute, the hours need to be put in.

Students have been studying 7 subjects for LC since the dawn of time. This is not a new phenomenon.

Some students work hard, some do very little and some are inbetween.

km79

Nice start to another testing and confusing week
Thanks wombatman

CrabRevolution

When people say "pressure for points is more than ever" what do they mean? When was the pressure lower? Why do they reckon there's more now? I'm looking at the points requirements of some of the big demand courses (Medicine, Veterinary, Law etc.) and they seem to be more or less static the last few years, with more having decreased than increased.

I did my LC during the recession and we were being told by the media (and some teachers) that if we didn't get enough points for a STEM course we'd be spending our lives on the dole or be forced to move to Australia. I can't say I suffered any mental anguish over it, but you can't tell me that there was less pressure for points than exists now.

ozmo

Random sample wrote: »

I think for any coursework not completed you give the mark you think the student would have gotten if it was completed. So you are grading them based on their drafts or practical work that has been done in class.

Thanks , this is for course work completed at home over the past couple months, as they were told to do, after *MARCH*. Deadline was extended.

It was mentioned on RTE that students would be graded on work up to *MARCH* - so was this wasted effort that wont get considered?

amacca

Choochtown wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/

Point 8 on this states that

"students will have access to the school-based data"

and also that

"schools should not disclose the estimated marks or rank orders to students"

Can anyone tell me...does this mean students can find out how their teacher ranked them or they cant?

Is it possible if a student appeals they need the info to explain their case and they can get the information under GDPR or freedom of information or something?

Or will they just have access to the tests/criteria/data the teacher used to arrive at their ranking?

Is there a definitive answer on this?

amacca

CrabRevolution wrote: »

When people say "pressure for points is more than ever" what do they mean? When was the pressure lower? Why do they reckon there's more now? I'm looking at the points requirements of some of the big demand courses (Medicine, Veterinary, Law etc.) and they seem to be more or less static the last few years, with more having decreased than increased.

I did my LC during the recession and we were being told by the media (and some teachers) that if we didn't get enough points for a STEM course we'd be spending our lives on the dole or be forced to move to Australia. I can't say I suffered any mental anguish over it, but you can't tell me that there was less pressure for points than exists now.

My theory is they are feeling it more because weve told them they should be in one way or another.....in trying to build in resilience with all the new wellbeing guff thats floating around they have achieved the opposite.

r93kaey5p2izun

Mrsmum wrote: »

Each subject stands alone though and is examined as such. But the student carries them all. Some subjects eg English, History have an enormous breath demanding huge amounts of time and then any particular student may not be particularly given to say Maths or Irish so may need hours to learn very little. I don't think any teacher considers the other subjects when they consider the amount of work their own subject needs. And I'm sticking with saying, overall, students nowadays work really hard and are under huge pressure in the points competition.

I can't agree I'm afraid. I think students are putting in less effort to their school work these days, certainly I see zero evidence of increased effort. And you're gravely mistaken if you think teachers don't consider other subjects. They did their LC, they are fully aware of the workload involved, this is something that is frequently discussed at staff meetings. It's not a new development - it has been this way forever. And the points race is not at its worst level ever. There are many more courses today. There was a time when there really was no other pathway into university courses. No access programmes, no HEAR scheme, no DEAR scheme, no links to PLC courses etc. Maths has also been removed as a matriculation requirement for most courses in NUI, and Foundation Level is accepted in Trinity for most courses. This has taken the pressure off many students who would have been left without a course place or seriously struggling with a level they couldn't manage, just 10 years ago. A huge amount has been done to open up access to college courses.

rainbowtrout

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I can't agree I'm afraid. I think students are putting in less effort to their school work these days, certainly I see zero evidence of increased effort. And you're gravely mistaken if you think teachers don't consider other subjects. They did their LC, they are fully aware of the workload involved, this is something that is frequently discussed at staff meetings. It's not a new development - it has been this way forever. And the points race is not at its worst level ever. There are many more courses today. There was a time when there really was no other pathway into university courses. No access programmes, no HEAR scheme, no DEAR scheme, no links to PLC courses etc. Maths has also been removed as a matriculation requirement for most courses in NUI, and Foundation Level is accepted in Trinity for most courses. This has taken the pressure off many students who would have been left without a course place or seriously struggling with a level they couldn't manage, just 10 years ago. A huge amount has been done to open up access to college courses.

Not to mind that 30% is now a passing grade at Higher Level.

History Queen

Anyone get any instructions from their own schools about collating data for 6th years and how to begin or even when we need to have it done for?

Newbie20

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not to mind that 30% is now a passing grade at Higher Level.

And also the dumbing down of several subjects in recent years.

It’s not harder than it ever was, it’s just that a lot of the students are mentally not as strong as they were. Might sound harsh but teachers have seen this change. I also completely agree with one of the points mentioned above that’s its often as a result of very little work that students are complaining of stress. Because they know they are not prepared.

paddybarry

History Queen wrote: »

Anyone get any instructions from their own schools about collating data for 6th years and how to begin or even when we need to have it done for?

Done a bit off my own bat. Got the SEC results for last three years for class I teach. Got the number of grades in each year. From that worked out the 3 year average for grades.

Also got the grade average per year. Have all class tests, term exams, mock etc in excel spreadsheet. Will use all this data to give a percentage, grade and ranking. Will then compare to SEC three year average and individual year average and adjust accordingly.

Newbie20

History Queen wrote: »

Anyone get any instructions from their own schools about collating data for 6th years and how to begin or even when we need to have it done for?

Haven’t heard a thing. Was fully expecting we’d have a meeting today but nothing so far.

History Queen

paddybarry wrote: »

Done a bit off my own bat. Got the SEC results for last three years for class I teach. Got the number of grades in each year. From that worked out the 3 year average for grades.

Also got the grade average per year. Have all class tests, term exams, mock etc in excel spreadsheet. Will use all this data to give a percentage, grade and ranking. Will then compare to SEC three year average and individual year average and adjust accordingly.

Do we have to do that? I'm not very mathematically skilled to be honest. Would need someone to double check my calculations. I didn't think we would have to work out and apply the SEC average. Is that not a later phase after the teacher predicts their grade? In my mind I'd be going through class tests, christmas and mock results and any other records (homework/classwork application etc) I had on a student to come up woth a likely predicted percentage... it seems I've underestimated what I need to do if your example is a more accurate representation of the workload.

Icsics

Newbie20 wrote: »

Haven’t heard a thing. Was fully expecting we’d have a meeting today but nothing so far.

Not a peep, I’d say they’re waiting for the JMB Gods to issue ‘guidelines’

km79

History Queen wrote: »

Do we have to do that? I'm not very mathematically skilled to be honest. Would need someone to double check my calculations. I didn't think we would have to work out and apply the SEC average. Is that not a later phase after the teacher predicts their grade? In my mind I'd be going through class tests, christmas and mock results and any other records (homework/classwork application etc) I had on a student to come up woth a likely predicted percentage... it seems I've underestimated what I need to do if your example is a more accurate representation of the workload.

No way individual teachers should be expected to do that. School management will will have to provide that data.
I am not doing anything until we receive clear guidance. I have wasted enough time over the pat two months with what now looks like futile work

paddybarry

History Queen wrote: »

Do we have to do that? I'm not very mathematically skilled to be honest. Would need someone to double check my calculations. I didn't think we would have to work out and apply the SEC average. Is that not a later phase after the teacher predicts their grade? In my mind I'd be going through class tests, christmas and mock results and any other records (homework/classwork application etc) I had on a student to come up woth a likely predicted percentage... it seems I've underestimated what I need to do if your example is a more accurate representation of the workload.

Just something I wanted to do myself. No class test, term exam or mock is a substitute for leaving cert. By looking at sec average, It gives me greater insight into how my students typically perform.

Working out averages for individual years is useful as I may feel that ability wise this year's class proximate 2018 or 2019 for example.

That in turns provides more guidance and justification for assigned grades.

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

Anyone get any instructions from their own schools about collating data for 6th years and how to begin or even when we need to have it done for?

I think a school would be making a rod for their own backs to be specific as to what every teacher should include.
Just leave it to professional judgement based on grades and homework presented and leave it at that.
If parents /students know that all teachers in one school are following the same rubric then it'll get picked apart.

Some suggestion a while back that some teachers were told what the expected grade for each student was supposed to be, before teachers had even started a review.
I think the Athena tracker spits out a grade once the mocks are in, so I can easily see a lot of teachers going with that rather than having to carry the risk of the fallout.

Btw did Athena tracker take into account entrance tests ? Not very fair if they do as I know a few students who were ill doing them or discrepancies in the testing.

I think parents should be made aware if Drumcondras etc are going to be used in other grading trackers. Data protection would necessitate that a change in the use of data requires consent!

History Queen

paddybarry wrote: »

Just something I wanted to do myself. No class test, term exam or mock is a substitute for leaving cert. By looking at sec average, It gives me greater insight into how my students typically perform.

Working out averages for individual years is useful as I may feel that ability wise this year's class proximate 2018 or 2019 for example.

That in turns provides more guidance and justification for assigned grades.

Ah ok. I see where you're coming from. Just shows what a minefield we're in if all teachers are working off different data sets as well as different analytical skills and methods. Even from class to class, different amounts of class tests and levels of difficulty.

Hopefully further guidance, wherever it comes from, will be clear.

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

I think a school would be making a rod for their own backs to be specific as to what every teacher should include.
Just leave it to professional judgement based on grades and homework presented and leave it at that.
If parents /students know that all teachers in one school are following the same rubric then it'll get picked apart.

Some suggestion a while back that some teachers were told what the expected grade for each student was supposed to be, before teachers had even started a review.
I think the Athena tracker spits out a grade once the mocks are in, so I can easily see a lot of teachers going with that rather than having to carry the risk of the fallout.

Btw did Athena tracker take into account entrance tests ? Not very fair if they do as I know a few students who were ill doing them or discrepancies in the testing.

I think parents should be made aware if Drumcondras etc are going to be used in other grading trackers. Data protection would necessitate that a change in the use of data requires consent!

I see your point re being too stringent with guidance also. As regards data protection are we not changing the use of all data. None of the data I'm going to be using was ever intended for calculating grades for LC. They were stand alone tests. Did the Dept address this issue at all? I don't recall seeing it in the guidance they issued.

byronbay2

paddybarry wrote: »

Done a bit off my own bat. Got the SEC results for last three years for class I teach. Got the number of grades in each year. From that worked out the 3 year average for grades.

Also got the grade average per year. Have all class tests, term exams, mock etc in excel spreadsheet. Will use all this data to give a percentage, grade and ranking. Will then compare to SEC three year average and individual year average and adjust accordingly.

Are you happy to use the mock results when they were widely available online prior to the mocks? Also what about the students who were concentrating on the HPAT and put no effort in to the mocks. It was advised in some schools to take this approach.

paddybarry

byronbay2 wrote: »

Are you happy too use the mock results when they were widely available online prior to the mocks? Also what about the students who were concentrating on the HPAT and put no effort in to the mocks. It was advised in some schools to take this approach.

Its data but not reliable. Thats why im looking at sec averages for my classes over past number of years.

km79

As part of the the original document we are told to compare with National averages over a three year period
I expect this information will be provided by school management when clear guidance emerges

For now i wish everyone would relax and stop coming up with systems of their own

We will all be setting our students off against each other soon enough sadly and I hope it’s a level playing field