Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

jimmytwotimes 2013

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be honest, I think there's quite a few principals going on solo runs over all of this. Rather than just saying to their staff 'I don't have an answer to that, I'll ask, or wait until we get more guidance' they are just making stuff up.

If i could print this on a t-shirt.

It's really annoying, perfectly summed up

jimmytwotimes 2013

amacca wrote: »

Anyone think schools might be dealing with a big increase in Leaving Cert students asking to repeat 6th yr.

I've said it before.

If I was a parent I'd register my LC child to repeat even if they won't.

This would give them access to a teacher if they choose to sit a paper later in the year.

If they don't register to repeat, would they be classed as former or current students if they came looking for support?

Clearly we'd all try and help but what happens if you get, say, 10 students looking for help for a few weeks and you're already up the walls with your own classes?

The grey areas in this process are growing

scrubs33

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Think that is a dead cert.

Ah no I think the leaving still has some value I wouldn't write it off yet...sorry couldn't resist. You are right though about the numbers repeating.

jimmytwotimes 2013

scrubs33 wrote: »

Ah no I think the leaving still has some value I wouldn't write it off yet...sorry couldn't resist. You are right though about the numbers repeating.

The fact they can sit a couple of subjects and not all, will encourage some to try it. They will do better in one or two subjects without the usual burden of having to prepare all six or seven.

I think this could be the case with higher Irish and some will just repeat this trying to get the 60% for primary teaching.

Months to prepare just one subject will possibly see a good number of students exceed their predicted grade and even if they do worse, they keep their predicted grade

Dylan94

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I've said it before.

If I was a parent I'd register my LC child to repeat even if they won't.

This would give them access to a teacher if they choose to sit a paper later in the year.

If they don't register to repeat, would they be classed as former or current students if they came looking for support?

Clearly we'd all try and help but what happens if you get, say, 10 students looking for help for a few weeks and you're already up the walls with your own classes?

The grey areas in this process are growing

It would be important to note that if a student were to register to repeat then they will likley just be put into the normal 6th year class. They will be given the same work as current 6th years. They might also be required to attend all classes, not just those that they are "repeating".

For me personally, if a studnet were to come in and repeat and were not engaging in everything that I was doing with the rest of the class and submitting the required work then I would not be doing anything extra to help with the upcoming exams that the rest of the class won't be taking.

happywithlife

With regards to repeating though surely if we get this second wave that leads to further closures next year Repeat students will still be facing the same/similar issues nect year?

Treppen

Dylan94 wrote: »

It would be important to note that if a student were to register to repeat then they will likley just be put into the normal 6th year class. They will be given the same work as current 6th years. They might also be required to attend all classes, not just those that they are "repeating".

For me personally, if a studnet were to come in and repeat and were not engaging in everything that I was doing with the rest of the class and submitting the required work then I would not be doing anything extra to help with the upcoming exams that the rest of the class won't be taking.

I think they would just have to stay extern as it would be very unfair on the current 5th years. When their written exams are coming up in say December, are you going to be telling your new 6th years that you have to do exam papers and revision now? Then when the practicals/orals come up it's the same deal. Unless the practicals and orals would be on at the same time as the new LCs.

If you had 10 students who had more or less completed 6th year but wandering around aimlessly in the school because they can't hack listening to it all again and don't think they need to be there. But the parents don't want them at home. Nightmare situation. But I suppose the department will leave schools to deal with that.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Dylan94 wrote: »

It would be important to note that if a student were to register to repeat then they will likley just be put into the normal 6th year class. They will be given the same work as current 6th years. They might also be required to attend all classes, not just those that they are "repeating".

For me personally, if a studnet were to come in and repeat and were not engaging in everything that I was doing with the rest of the class and submitting the required work then I would not be doing anything extra to help with the upcoming exams that the rest of the class won't be taking.

Wouldn't you have to differentiate to the needs of your students?

rainbowtrout

The reality though, is that somewhere between 1800-2000 repeat the LC each year normally. That figure is from 2015, I couldn't find a more recent one. Even with predicted grades (inflated or otherwise), most students who apply to the CAO will be offered a place. There will still be students getting 6/7 H1s. There will still be hundreds of students accepted into large intake courses like Arts and Business, General Science and Engineering. Most will move on one way or another.

km79

I raised this issue with the union the first day it was announced.
It will be a huge problem.
They will not be "normal " repeats who join classes (that have room.......) and follow scheme for the year
They will need a different scheme of work.So will in effect be a different class.
The dept will simply have to create actual classes for them in each subject area and pay (temporary) teachers to teach them for whatever portion of the year they are in for until the exams.......

There is a limit to how much I am physically and mentally able to do. Taking on an extra class( and if it is unstructured then different students will want different topics revised at different times) on top of my new timetable and most likely teaching a "blended learning" model is past that limit. I am struggling along to the end of this year as it is

fed_u

Leaving certs going to school for some subjects may not work as courses can change and teachers have to cover that course with now 5th years. Could we see schools run a 7th year and specific timetables for the students to attend classes - maybe a few schools in an area would come together to offer subjects??

km79

fed_u wrote: »

Leaving certs going to school for some subjects may not work as courses can change and teachers have to cover that course with now 5th years. Could we see schools run a 7th year and specific timetables for the students to attend classes - maybe a few schools in an area would come together to offer subjects??

Can’t see any other way myself but I have no confidence that level of thought or resources will go into it
More than likely they will just expect current teachers to just continue on remote teaching them .
Of course the unknown in all this is when exams take place
If it’s September no big issues
Any later then there is

randylonghorn

Being cynical for a sec, thing is, these aren't repeat students.

They are students who have been given a LC grade the way the government has chosen to give it (and the way many of them wanted), and are now choosing to "appeal" it by sitting the exam.

And fair enough, they should have a right to do that.

But while it would be great if schools could see their way to give them some bit of support, I'm not sure why they should see themselves as having a right to a full-time "repeat" programme, especially when any such approach is likely to have a negative effect on next year's sixth years (who are for the most part the silent forgotten group so far in all of this ... not among teachers, but among most others).

fed_u wrote: »

Could we see schools run a 7th year and specific timetables for the students to attend classes - maybe a few schools in an area would come together to offer subjects??

I think the idea of schools in an area co-operating to reduce resources needed / pressure on staff is an extremely good one, esp. if you have maybe 4-8 students per school in this situation.

I'd be more thinking a couple of 2 hour revision / review sessions per subject in the weeks before the exams though.

Which is pretty much the time per subject they would have got in the "2 weeks in July" model anyway.

jimmytwotimes 2013

The minster promised the students 2 weeks of face-to-face tuition before sitting a paper. Any student could ask where that promise went. They had tuition cut before the year's end as well.

Be interesting to see what happens when this comes around

km79

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

The minster promised the students 2 weeks of face-to-face tuition before sitting a paper. Any student could ask where that promise went. They had tuition cut before the year's end as well.

Be interesting to see what happens when this comes around

It was always voluntary sure .........
And the time is going into teacher training and analyzing results to draw up predicted grades
Or was this expected to happen on top of our current timetable ........

That’s my answer

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

It was always voluntary sure .........
And the time is going into teacher training and analyzing results to draw up predicted grades
Or was this expected to happen on top of our current timetable ........

That’s my answer

It would be a question for the minister tho, not the teacher.

100% Teachers are very busy but students were made a promise by the minister so it might fall on him to arrange a 7th year, for a couple of months, or whatever as others have said.

The teacher will have a full timetable already for next year so how the minister would organise it will be interesting.

No doubt teachers have not created this situation and would not be liable

Treppen

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

It would be a question for the minister tho, not the teacher.

100% Teachers are very busy but students were made a promise by the minister so it might fall on him to arrange a 7th year, for a couple of months, or whatever as others have said.

The teacher will have a full timetable already for next year so how the minister would organise it will be interesting.

No doubt teachers have not created this situation and would not be liable

No way the Department will be 'arranging' anything. It'll be left to schools to deal with.
The department will probably issue guidelines though.
Kind of like the guidelines that aren't being issued as of last week:)

randylonghorn

Treppen wrote: »

No way the Department will be 'arranging' anything. It'll be left to schools to deal with.

I think this too.

With vague comments like "schools will do their utmost to support students in this situation".

And I suspect no extra resources offered.

So it might be sensible for teachers to have a think about what might actually be practical / reasonable / doable, and be ready to get their oar in quickly once it's mentioned, and before school managements can come up with silly ideas.

And realistically, the minister's promise (in a previous "solution", now abandoned) was for 2 weeks face-to-face time in July.

Even allowing for 2 weeks normal full timetable, what would that mean per subject ... 4-5 hours?

Wombatman

"Row erupts over claims 'school profiling' will form part of assessing Leaving Cert students".

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/row-erupts-over-claims-school-profiling-will-form-part-of-assessing-leaving-cert-students-39203559.html

So if a genius student, destined for straight As under normal circumstances, goes to a crap school, they are fecked?

jimmytwotimes 2013

randylonghorn wrote: »

Even allowing for 2 weeks normal full timetable, what would that mean per subject ... 4-5 hours?

And another 4-5 hours for instructing schools to stop tuition this week

jimmytwotimes 2013

Wombatman wrote: »

"Row erupts over claims 'school profiling' will form part of assessing Leaving Cert students".

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/row-erupts-over-claims-school-profiling-will-form-part-of-assessing-leaving-cert-students-39203559.html

So if a genius student, destined for straight As under normal circumstances, goes to a crap school, they are fecked?

School in a disadvantaged area does not equate to a Crap school.

Often they're better learning environments than the high flyers

Wombatman

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

School in a disadvantaged area does not equate to a Crap school.

Often they're better learning environments than the high flyers

Sorry. I'm talking about a school that hasn't performed well over the last three years.

randylonghorn

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

And another 4-5 hours for instructing schools to stop tuition this week

Hmmm, maybe .. there was no promise made to replace those hours tho.

I mean, if schools / teachers find it doable to cover these hours or some of them, absolutely brilliant say I!!

Alex86Eire

Our principal told us this afternoon that DES were providing training next week so we've put our calculating on hold for the moment.

km79

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Our principal told us this afternoon that DES were providing training next week so we've put our calculating on hold for the moment.

I look forward to the reduction in Croke Parks hours in return

Treppen

Some sobering food for thought for those in a rush to call all teachers in next week https://www.tes.com/news/coronavirus-revealed-least-26-teachers-have-died-covid-19?fbclid=IwAR0ZBt-xXfZY7eiakBCpw8EefBJMG-dl85h7WXshem4zw5GCv4_gZG56nYI

r93kaey5p2izun

TUI have just notified of some update in the government's FAQ.

"Objectivity and fairness of the approach

At the core of both the school-based and national standardisation phases of the system of calculated grades is a commitment to objectivity and fairness both to individual students and all other students. To ensure this, the school-based process must not be compromised.

Therefore, the principal, deputy principal(s), teachers or other members of the school staff must not under any circumstances discuss with or disclose to any student or parent or guardian of any student the estimated marks and ranking that the school is submitting. There are two reasons for this:

The mark assigned by the school is not necessarily the final mark that the student will receive and it would therefore be misleading for the student to receive that mark before the calculated grade processes are complete

Allowing access to and discussion of estimated grades before the calculated grades process is complete would interfere with the process being carried out properly and fairly. If teachers discussed the marks with some students but not others, or if some teachers did this and others did not, these discussions might actually influence (consciously or unconsciously) or be represented or construed as influencing the mark the teacher submits to the subject alignment group.

Similarly, parents/guardians and students must not under any circumstances contact or attempt to contact, either formally or informally, directly or indirectly, a teacher or other member of staff at any stage to discuss the estimated marks or ranking to be assigned to a student in any subject.
 
Teachers and schools must not be subjected to any type of influence, inducement (including gifts), pressure or coercion by a parent/guardian, student or any other person in relation to a student’s mark or ranking either before or after it has been assigned.

Such contact would be regarded as totally inappropriate and a serious attempt to interfere with the fairness and objectivity required of teachers and schools in the assigning of estimated marks and ranking for the individual student concerned and for the students in the school as a whole.

Further guidance for schools and teachers on this matter is under development through engagement between the Department of Education and Skills and education partners."

ngunners

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

TUI have just notified of some update in the government's FAQ.

"Objectivity and fairness of the approach

At the core of both the school-based and national standardisation phases of the system of calculated grades is a commitment to objectivity and fairness both to individual students and all other students. To ensure this, the school-based process must not be compromised.

Therefore, the principal, deputy principal(s), teachers or other members of the school staff must not under any circumstances discuss with or disclose to any student or parent or guardian of any student the estimated marks and ranking that the school is submitting. There are two reasons for this:

The mark assigned by the school is not necessarily the final mark that the student will receive and it would therefore be misleading for the student to receive that mark before the calculated grade processes are complete

Allowing access to and discussion of estimated grades before the calculated grades process is complete would interfere with the process being carried out properly and fairly. If teachers discussed the marks with some students but not others, or if some teachers did this and others did not, these discussions might actually influence (consciously or unconsciously) or be represented or construed as influencing the mark the teacher submits to the subject alignment group.

Similarly, parents/guardians and students must not under any circumstances contact or attempt to contact, either formally or informally, directly or indirectly, a teacher or other member of staff at any stage to discuss the estimated marks or ranking to be assigned to a student in any subject.
 
Teachers and schools must not be subjected to any type of influence, inducement (including gifts), pressure or coercion by a parent/guardian, student or any other person in relation to a student’s mark or ranking either before or after it has been assigned.

Such contact would be regarded as totally inappropriate and a serious attempt to interfere with the fairness and objectivity required of teachers and schools in the assigning of estimated marks and ranking for the individual student concerned and for the students in the school as a whole.

Further guidance for schools and teachers on this matter is under development through engagement between the Department of Education and Skills and education partners."

Not much new info there is there?

r93kaey5p2izun

That's what I thought. I thought maybe they copied the wrong bit as new, but I went to the source and there's nothing else there either.

rainbowtrout

It is unfortunate that they have to spell out 'please don't bribe the teachers/teachers can't accept bribes' part of all of this.