Why was the length of the secondary post-grad diploma extended?

political analyst

This article was written last year.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2019/0522/1050930-education/

A review of teacher training programmes in Ireland has criticised the level of fees charged to students studying to become teachers, and says course changes introduced seven years ago have contributed to the current shortage of post-primary teachers.

The study, published by the Higher Education Authority, says annual fees of around €6,000 for the two-year postgraduate diploma now required of all new post-primary teachers are "prohibitive" for many students.

It has called for "further consideration" of the impact of the charge.

The review - 'The Structure of Teacher Education in Ireland: Review of Progress in Implementing Reform' - notes that since the introduction of the mandatory two-year diploma in 2013, newly qualified post-primary teachers now have to spend up to six years in university.

While students are charged €3,000 per year at undergraduate level this rises to around €6,000 for each of the two postgraduate years.

Graduate numbers have fallen by more than a third since the two-year diploma, which replaced a one-year programme, was introduced in 2013.

Why was the length of the secondary post-graduate diploma doubled?

Did the Department of Education give a reason for this decision in 2013?

CraftySue

political analyst wrote: »

This article was written last year.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2019/0522/1050930-education/



Why was the length of the secondary post-graduate diploma doubled?

Did the Department of Education give a reason for this decision in 2013?

At the time primary teaching was a 3 year degree, this was increased to 4 years. Secondary was a degree and a year long post grad in teaching which was increased to a 2 year masters - funnily enough to bring us inline with what was happening in Finland.The idea was to improve the quality and standard of teaching. I have to say I agreed with increasing primary to a 4 year qualification, not so sure a about post primary this is mainly a money making machine for Hibernia. There are other options for post primary like a 4 year integrated post primary degree in some colleges, where degree and teaching is combined like maths and Irish teaching degree in thurles.

highly1111

At the time there was an over-supply of teachers so the government wanted to reduce the numbers flowing in so they a) delayed it by a year and b) make it more inaccessible

The colleges can charge twice the fees for twice the course length.

Schools get free labour in terms of longer PME placements.

Who's the loser here? Answer: Everyone who wants to be a teacher but now the barrier to entry is higher than ever in terms of financial cost as well as deferred earnings. (Imo it's one of the reasons why teaching will full of middle class young people as it's harder than before to career change into teaching as well as less affordable for those less off (who tend to be minorities))

RealJohn

It was to save money, pure and simple. They probably realised that it was wrong to have separate pay scales, so they wanted to muddy the waters. On the pre-2011 scale, you got separate allowances for your h.dip and for your primary degree, which came to about €6100 a year, if you got honours in both, or if you got a masters, that masters allowance replaced the primary degree allowance and bumped the allowance up to about €6700, in total.

By getting rid of the one year h.dip and replacing it with a 2 year masters, if they’re ever forced to go back to the old scale for everyone (unlikely, given the lack of backbone the unions have, but if) then no new teachers will be entitled to the h.dip allowance, or the primary degree allowance, only the masters allowance, so they’d save approximately €1200 per teacher, per year.

Dylan94

I done the 2 year masters programme, and personally I think that 1 year would be way to short of a time to properly develope as a teacher that is competent enough to be able to teach a leaving cert course.

During your first year you are really only leaning how to manage the students, develop relationships and figure out how schools work. Its in the second year that you really start learning how to teach and develope your own style.

I know that it is a lot more expensive, but in my opinion it is worth the extra time and money.

TheValeyard

Money.

km79

Money
Close thread

sitstill

Dylan94 wrote: »

I done the 2 year masters programme, and personally I think that 1 year would be way to short of a time to properly develope as a teacher that is competent enough to be able to teach a leaving cert course.

During your first year you are really only leaning how to manage the students, develop relationships and figure out how schools work. Its in the second year that you really start learning how to teach and develope your own style.

I know that it is a lot more expensive, but in my opinion it is worth the extra time and money.

How did those of us manage who came before you and only did a one year course.

Treppen

Essentially it's a QQI legacy issue which had been brewing on for a while.

If anyone recalls being told their PGDE was a level 9 around 2006... But then told it was only level 8. So it was an attempt to up the qualification from diploma (hdip anyone?) To Masters as the level 9 thing fell through.

So to make it masters level it had to be 2 years part time.

That's a garbled version.
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.oh yeah and money for colleges too.

Believe it or not the old hdip/pgde used to be funded. Mine cost a couple of hundred!

Icsics

PME has become an industry, a money generating one. Apart from the fees, there’s the additional fees to add subjects, every uni runs these.

Treppen

Icsics wrote: »

PME has become an industry, a money generating one. Apart from the fees, there’s the additional fees to add subjects, every uni runs these.

Free labor for schools to. Myself and ten other hdips were on a half timetable in the same school! That's 5 permanent jobs.

Back in the day you could easily get good sub work during your hdip , but now s&s has killed it off.

Mardy Bum

Lots of course like architecture and engineering as well as many others I'm sure became masters degrees at the same time. Not fully sure why. May be something to do with recognition across the E.U.

Trekky77

The Teaching Council approved this extension in a vote, it was passed by a one vote margin. Just remember that there are more non teacher members on TC committees than teaching members.

Dylan94

sitstill wrote: »

How did those of us manage who came before you and only did a one year course.

I'm sure they continued to learn/develop at roughly the same rate. But they didn't have the support and time during the second year that they get now.

In the last it was one year and your done. But now its 2 years plus Droichead. Thats three years of support versus one.

I'm sure most of the teachers who done the one year eventually got to the same place as the person with 2/3 years. But I'm sure it was easier for the latter.

Geuze

Dylan94 wrote: »

I done the 2 year masters programme, and personally I think that 1 year would be way to short of a time to properly develope as a teacher that is competent enough to be able to teach a leaving cert course.

I apologise for being off-topic, but this isn't the first time I've been worried about the writing standards of our teachers.

"I done" is an Irish classic, very common.

I hear it so much from students, even postgrads.

Dylan94

Geuze wrote: »

I apologise for being off-topic, but this isn't the first time I've been worried about the writing standards of our teachers.

"I done" is an Irish classic, very common.

I hear it so much from students, even postgrads.

They way I write on an Internet forum, has no connection with the quality of my academic writing. I personally constantly use done/did wrong without thinking. However, since I am dyslexic Im more conscious when writing anything for work, so it wouldn't really happen.

Trekky77

Geuze wrote: »

I apologise for being off-topic, but this isn't the first time I've been worried about the writing standards of our teachers.

"I done" is an Irish classic, very common.

I hear it so much from students, even postgrads.

Off topic and irrelevant. Join a grammar forum if you have a hang up over spelling mistakes on an internet forum, I'm sure there are forums out there like this.

RealJohn

Trekky77 wrote: »

Off topic and irrelevant. Join a grammar forum if you have a hang up over spelling mistakes on an internet forum, I'm sure there are forums out there like this.

Not irrelevant. We have someone claiming that he’s been trained better than teachers who only had a one year h.dip, but apparently, hasn’t learned the importance of modelling good behaviour, and of being willing to accept correction when you’re wrong, no matter what your level of experience is.

spurious

I did a four year concurrent course.
I must win the Internet today.
I will bake a cake.

Dylan94

RealJohn wrote: »

Not irrelevant. We have someone claiming that he’s been trained better than teachers who only had a one year h.dip, but apparently, hasn’t learned the importance of modelling good behaviour, and of being willing to accept correction when you’re wrong, no matter what your level of experience is.

I wasn't claiming that I was trained better, I was saying that it was easier with more support. Which it is, who is going to find it easier, a teacher in their 2nd year who now has full responsibility for classes and 22 hours contact time. Or the teacher who is in their second year teaching who has just 7 hours and the support of a cooperating teacher, a University supervisor and a tutor among others.

Yes I'm sure the end result after a number of years teaching will be the same, but I would argue that in the first 2 or 3 years that the person who spend the extra time in college with the extra support would be slightly better off.

Where did I refuse to accept correction? I accepted that I said I used the wrong word, and I even said that I am aware that I use the wrong word often, but that I put a bit more care into my professional writing than a post on Boards.ie

Treppen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Lots of course like architecture and engineering as well as many others I'm sure became masters degrees at the same time. Not fully sure why. May be something to do with recognition across the E.U.

Ya I think that was part of it too

RealJohn

Dylan94 wrote: »

Where did I refuse to accept correction? I accepted that I said I used the wrong word, and I even said that I am aware that I use the wrong word often, but that I put a bit more care into my professional writing than a post on Boards.ie

Making excuses is not accepting correction. There’s a difference between accepting that you’re wrong, and accepting being corrected.

If you make those sorts of mistakes on boards.ie, when you’re under no pressure, it isn’t believable to me that you don’t also make them when you’re under pressure in class. Making the effort in informal settings, like on boards, will help prevent making the mistakes in formal settings.
I never say “I done ...” or “I seen ...” in class because I never say them outside of class either. I’d be embarrassed if I did, because modelling good behaviour is important to me, regardless of the setting.

Seannew1

Money. The PME is a great cash cow for colleges. The 2 year course is just the one year h-dip spread out over 2 years. In my second year of PME, I spent only 9 days on the actual campus of the college. The rest of the time I was in my placement school, where I did subbing and did not get paid at all. 6k down the drain.

Dylan94

RealJohn wrote: »

Making excuses is not accepting correction. There’s a difference between accepting that you’re wrong, and accepting being corrected.

If you make those sorts of mistakes on boards.ie, when you’re under no pressure, it isn’t believable to me that you don’t also make them when you’re under pressure in class. Making the effort in informal settings, like on boards, will help prevent making the mistakes in formal settings.
I never say “I done ...” or “I seen ...” in class because I never say them outside of class either. I’d be embarrassed if I did, because modelling good behaviour is important to me, regardless of the setting.

I also did not make an excuse. Could you quote the excuse? I said the way I write on here has no connection to the way I write in work.

I'm sure most people use bad language all the time without thinking when at home or with friends, yet they still manage to be professional in the classroom and not use that same language.

The way most people act inside and out of the classroom is very different.

Olivia Pope

As a current student of the PME primary course, I cannot imagine the pressure of doing this in one year. I dream of being able to do a four year B. Ed. I feel like I am rushing through everything with little time for reflection. Well until the last few weeks, but that wasn't scheduled.

funkypumpkins

Olivia Pope wrote: »

As a current student of the PME primary course, I cannot imagine the pressure of doing this in one year. I dream of being able to do a four year B. Ed. I feel like I am rushing through everything with little time for reflection. Well until the last few weeks, but that wasn't scheduled.

I get you on that but Teaching is always going to be a learning curve. You are always learning your craft.

I trained in the UK where the PGCE Teacher Training is only one year. It is a real learning curve but I think having two year teacher training for secondary, for those who are degree qualified, is a terrible cash cow for the universities. Especially considering the job scenario. Though, I am toying with moving to Primary Teaching and I can understand the need for two years to learn pedagogy and how to teach all the curriculum.

I found that I got more specialised advice as a Newly Qualified Teacher/staff member rather than a student teacher. Where a school is paying you to teach, they are more invested in developing you. As a student teacher, I felt I had little assistance in reflecting on my practice and felt more of a nuisance.

rainbowtrout

Dylan94 wrote: »

I wasn't claiming that I was trained better, I was saying that it was easier with more support. Which it is, who is going to find it easier, a teacher in their 2nd year who now has full responsibility for classes and 22 hours contact time. Or the teacher who is in their second year teaching who has just 7 hours and the support of a cooperating teacher, a University supervisor and a tutor among others.

When I was in my first year of teaching my own 22 hours, I was able to put my time to good use preparing resources for my classes rather than writing tedious lesson plans that took longer to write than it did to teach the class, and even more waffly reflections.

The people in your staffroom will provide more real world support in 5 minutes if you have a problem because they know the kids and have the experience than a university lecturer who comes out to see you once or twice and has to find something to criticise in your lesson, otherwise they have nothing to talk about. Same for the tutor who is not out teaching, they are lecturing on campus or whatever. Not saying they can't provide any support, but what you get in your staffroom will always be more meaningful. The same lecturers often have spent little or no time in the classroom themselves.

rainbowtrout

Olivia Pope wrote: »

As a current student of the PME primary course, I cannot imagine the pressure of doing this in one year. I dream of being able to do a four year B. Ed. I feel like I am rushing through everything with little time for reflection. Well until the last few weeks, but that wasn't scheduled.

The PME primary course never existed as a one year course. It only ever existed as an 18 month post grad as it was an add on for someone looking to get into primary teaching after completing another degree. I'd imagine there are some modules related specifically to primary teaching, the obvious one being the time spent in the Gaeltacht.

Secondary teaching was always more straightforward, you had a degree in the subject you planned on teaching, so the dip was to learn how to teach it.

History Queen

I did the post Primary Hibernia course the first year it came out(2011). It was advertised as two years part time at that stage and not a masters. It was one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. Could easily have been a one year course but instead was stretched out over two years.vIt could have been one year and still have been part time. I worked full time while doing the course (except for teaching practice blocks) Now I can't speak for the current Masters version, I assume that needs the extra time?

jrmb

History Queen wrote: »

I did the post Primary Hibernia course the first year it came out(2011). It was advertised as two years part time at that stage and not a masters. It was one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. Could easily have been a one year course but instead was stretched out over two years.vIt could have been one year and still have been part time. I worked full time while doing the course (except for teaching practice blocks) Now I can't speak for the current Masters version, I assume that needs the extra time?

Excuse my ignorance, but was it a PGDE when you did it?

History Queen

jrmb wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but was it a PGDE when you did it?

Sorry yes it was, I should have been more clear. It changed title half way through (we were given an explanation I just can't remember what it was) my "piece of paper" says I have a Professional Diploma in Education (Post-Primary)