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Truth about traveller crime

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    #452
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Omackeral wrote: »
    1) Every other candidate said they'd happily live next to Travellers. People didn't believe that story evidently.

    2) It was a forgone conclusion that Michael D Higgins had it won anyway so it mattered not. A protest vote.




    1) People weren't prepared to piss away their vote in a GE that's never certain. Not the case in the above scenario.

    2) Why do I continue to engage you?

    Therefore, the idea that you had promoted, that Peter Casey's showing in the Presidential election was so strong because his anti-traveller message resonated with the public, but at the same time it was so weak that they wouldn't waste their vote in a general election on the issue.

    So, it was a protest vote in a meaningless election which was exaggerated by the level of media given to him in an otherwise moribund election campaign. Which is what I said initially. The Anti-traveller feeling isnt nearly as strong as you, plenty on this thread, and Peter Casey tells-it-like-it-is fans believe it to be.

    You engage with me as you are learning something.


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    #453
    Deebles McBeebles
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    Morgans wrote: »
    The Anti-traveller feeling isnt nearly as strong as you, plenty on this thread, and Peter Casey tells-it-like-it-is fans believe it to be.

    Oh it definitely is. Not because of racism, because of experience.


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    #454
    batman75
    Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭batman75


    tastyt wrote: »

    And another thing, people don’t need to be lectured to or told how they should feel about travellers.

    A poster on this thread fell foul of the boards mods in how they felt about travellers. I'm assuming they felt he/she crossed the line with generalisations. You could argue it's a form of censorship but at the same time Board mods have to censor anything that could incite hatred or which a neutral would deem unfair.


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    #455
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Morgans wrote: »
    Therefore, the idea that you had promoted, that Peter Casey's showing in the Presidential election was so strong because his anti-traveller message resonated with the public, but at the same time it was so weak that they wouldn't waste their vote in a general election on the issue.

    So, it was a protest vote in a meaningless election which was exaggerated by the level of media given to him in an otherwise moribund election campaign. Which is what I said initially. The Anti-traveller feeling isnt nearly as strong as you, plenty on this thread, and Peter Casey tells-it-like-it-is fans believe it to be.

    You engage with me as you are learning something.

    Let me dumb it down for you.

    Presidential election. Already decided. Undecided voters weren't gonna affect the outcome. However, a sizeable number went for an absolute nobody after he shoots from the hip on an issue people never really hear discussed on TV. Follow that. Someone goes from 0.1% to 3rd or 4th place. There is something in that. You're either willfully obtuse or daft as a brush if you don't see it for what it was.

    General election isn't the time for a protest vote when candidates are need for a multitude of reasons. The one trick pony has used up his trick at that stage.

    A mood was captured in an arena where it could afford to be put forward with the presidential elections. It was a forgone conclusion. Not the case with a GE. The end.


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    #456
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Let me dumb it down for you.

    Presidential election. Already decided. Undecided voters weren't gonna affect the outcome. However, a sizeable number went for an absolute nobody after he shoots from the hip on an issue people never really hear discussed on TV.

    A Dragon from RTE's Dragon's Den. Absolute nobody. Qualifies as a Beyonce level celebrity in some areas.

    So Anti-Traveller feeling is only useful when its useless. It's not a concern when there are other bigger matters up for discussion. Sounds about right.

    There is an overwhelming argument that the outcome of the last general election came from a huge protest vote, despite your political analysis.


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    #457
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Deebles McBeebles wrote: »
    Oh it definitely is. Not because of racism, because of experience.

    My own personal experience with travellers, or knackers, as they were known in my home time was my brother was tied up and threatened to be killed by three of them (as teenagers). I'll remember my parents reporting it to the guards who visited them. Being a relatively small town, news travels. Some of the travellers were then, and turned out to be very bad eggs. One in and out of prison ever since, one left for england so after. However, one of the boys mothers (i knew him from school, yes school, and was a sound lad) charged out of her house down to the mother of the apparent ringleader and had a full blown argument about not getting her son involved in the type of **** and life he was going to lead. I'm clever enough to know that while some of them are as low as any other criminal going, there are plenty doing their best to lead better lives, finding it very hard to escape the circumstances they were born into.

    So, yeah, hating the travellers may come from experience, it doesnt stop hating all of them from being racism. If you want to play the card that they arent a race ergo I'm not a racist for hating all of them, use sematics to absolve yourself.


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    #458
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Why did the numbers go from nil to what they did for Casey?


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    #459
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Why did the numbers go from nil to what they did for Casey?

    Can you name another candidate from the presidential election? Michael D, Peter Casey....

    Media coverage, celebrity candidate, and racism. And as I said in my first, or second post, the lowest ever number of voters for any Irish presidential election exaggerated its effect.

    Why did they go to nil for Casey, in particular? Cos plenty saw that Casey was dodging more tax than a city full of halting sites, and the media coverage of his type of populism wasn't there in the General election. He was the only story in the Presidential election.


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    #460
    deaddonkey15
    Registered Users Posts: 3,576 ✭✭✭deaddonkey15


    Morgans wrote: »
    Can you name another candidate from the presidential election? Michael D, Peter Casey....

    Media coverage, celebrity candidate, and racism. And as I said in my first, or second post, the lowest ever number of voters for any Irish presidential election exaggerated its effect.

    Yeah, he’d probably have gotten more votes if more people came out.


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    #461
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    deaddonkey15 wrote: »
    Yeah, he’d probably have gotten more votes if more people came out.

    Or if he chose just the one constituency to represent like the vast majority of politicians would have done.


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    #462
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Morgans wrote: »
    Can you name another candidate from the presidential election? Michael D, Peter Casey....

    Yes, except admittedly the brunette lady's name escapes me. Gavin Duffy, Sean Gallagher, and Liadh Ni Riada.
    Morgans wrote: »
    Media coverage, celebrity candidate, and racism. And as I said in my first, or second post, the lowest ever number of voters for any Irish presidential election exaggerated its effect.

    One racist quote he made please? Just one. He called for Travellers to be held to the same standard as everyone else. That's equality. Opposite of racism.

    Morgans wrote: »
    Why did they go to nil for Casey, in particular? Cos plenty saw that Casey was dodging more tax than a city full of halting sites, and the media coverage of his type of populism wasn't there in the General election. He was the only story in the Presidential election.

    Wrong reason. Why would they vote for him based on that anyway?

    You're all over the place.


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    #463
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 52,014 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Traveller prisoner population is 11%. Traveler population in Ireland is.....

    Traveller prison population in Ireland-

    Male 15%.
    Female- 22%.


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    #464
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Ah the numbers have gone up. Read before that the numbers in Castlerea are exponentially higher again.


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    #465
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Omackeral wrote: »
    One racist quote he made please? Just one. He called for Travellers to be held to the same standard as everyone else. That's equality. Opposite of racism.

    Where did I say he made a racist quote. All over the place indeed.


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    #466
    Deebles McBeebles
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    Morgans wrote: »
    I'm clever enough to know that while some of them are as low as any other criminal going, there are plenty doing their best to lead better lives, finding it very hard to escape the circumstances they were born into.

    I really don't care to know your personal experiences with them. 99% of people are just as clever as you and realise they sometimes have it hard, like everyone else, the reasons why are whats up for debate. I would argue it is mostly of their own doing.
    Morgans wrote: »
    So, yeah, hating the travellers may come from experience, it doesnt stop hating all of them from being racism. If you want to play the card that they arent a race ergo I'm not a racist for hating all of them, use sematics to absolve yourself.

    You're just putting words in my mouth now. Very lazy argument.


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    #467
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    Omackeral wrote: »
    One racist quote he made please? Just one. He called for Travellers to be held to the same standard as everyone else. That's equality. Opposite of racism.
    .

    These days quoting the CSO figures (prison population & employment rate) can be racist.


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    #468
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,101 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    tastyt wrote: »
    People don’t wake up one morning and say “ I think I’m going to hate travellers from now on “

    i think we both know they probably do, and they do so because they can, there is not enough challenge of them.
    tastyt wrote: »
    They are hated because of their actions. Full stop.

    if it was just that, then those who commit the actions would be the only ones hated, and they would be hated as equally as anyone else who would commit the same actions, but as we know that's not happening.
    what is happening, is people using the criminal element as an excuse to hate all within the group, and the hate is disproportionate to even the criminal element, a criminal traveler who might commit the same crime as a settled person will no doubt receive a lot more hate then the settled individual.
    tastyt wrote: »
    They want no part in our society and we don’t want them, it’s up to the state to make sure that at least they can act within the laws.

    ultimately it doesn't matter what you want or whether you want travelers to be part of society or not, if individual travelers wish to take part in society and be part of it they have the same rights as anyone else to do so, and you will just have to suck it up and get over it.
    absolutely law and order across the board is a state issue to sort out, but it is also up to us to vote for parties who will actually invest in the police and justice system.
    tastyt wrote: »
    And another thing, people don’t need to be lectured to or told how they should feel about travellers. There are a hundred reasons why they are hated.

    there are a hundred excuses why all travelers get hate for the actions of some, something which would not be tolerated if the same was happening to any other group, more like it.
    and yes, people like yourself do need a lecture.
    tastyt wrote: »
    Would I say it to one of their faces , no. Not because I don’t have balls but because I’m not ****ing stupid. They are criminals who go round in gangs wielding machetes, there’s no such thing as a fair fight with them regardless of all their bull**** bravado talk about bare knuckle boxing.

    Add to that their disgraceful treatment of animals and it’s plain to see they are a scourge on the country[/QUOTE]

    some of them are criminals yes, and the criminality committed by those individuals is a scurge, no different to any criminal within any other group in society who commits crime.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #469
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Traveller prison population in Ireland-

    Male 15%.
    Female- 22%.

    Does that mean that 15% of the male prison population are male travellers? Or that 15% of male travellers are in prison? Just so we're clear.


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    #470
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    end of the road wrote: »
    some of them are criminals yes, and the criminality committed by those individuals is a scurge, no different to any criminal within any other group in society who commits crime.
    Quick question: if you're a hotel owner, and being approached by the traveller community to hold a traveller's wedding, would you accept the booking?
    Remember: they are all travellers, not criminals!


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    #471
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    tastyt wrote: »
    People don’t wake up one morning and say “ I think I’m going to hate travellers from now on “
    end of the road wrote: »
    i think we both know they probably do

    That legitimately gave me a laugh :pac::pac::pac:


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    #472
    na1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 921 ✭✭✭na1


    https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/news-media/keepingtravellerswell.pdf


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    #473
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 52,014 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    Does that mean that 15% of the male prison population are male travellers? Or that 15% of male travellers are in prison? Just so we're clear.

    That’s the percentage of the prison population. It averages out that 22% of the prison population are Travellers.
    I can’t link from this but if you google “ Travellers in prison initiative “ there’s a 24 page report.


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    #474
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    end of the road wrote: »
    i think we both know they probably do, and they do so because they can, there is not enough challenge of them.
    And why isn't there enough challenge? You said before that the people who voice their opinions of travellers would never do the same about black people or Poles? Why do you think one would be opposed and not the other? Maybe because dislike of travellers is founded on real concerns about criminality? Concerns that don't exist about blacks and Poles.


    end of the road wrote: »
    if it was just that, then those who commit the actions would be the only ones hated, and they would be hated as equally as anyone else who would commit the same actions, but as we know that's not happening.
    what is happening, is people using the criminal element as an excuse to hate all within the group, and the hate is disproportionate to even the criminal element, a criminal traveler who might commit the same crime as a settled person will no doubt receive a lot more hate then the settled individual.
    No. It's because no single ethnic group commits crime at the same rate as travellers. There's no group of people in this country that in anyway compares with travellers when it comes to crime. Therefore when you see a traveller, it's natural that you'll be more concerned about whether that traveller is a criminal than you would about the average settled person.
    end of the road wrote: »
    ultimately it doesn't matter what you want or whether you want travelers to be part of society or not, if individual travelers wish to take part in society and be part of it they have the same rights as anyone else to do so, and you will just have to suck it up and get over it.
    You keep on saying it's impossible to pressure travellers into joining society if they don't want to. It absolutely is. All you have to is change the incentives.

    Travellers stay the way the way there because they have no reason to change. Give them reasons. Halt their state aid and shut down their criminal enterprises.
    end of the road wrote: »
    there are a hundred excuses why all travelers get hate for the actions of some, something which would not be tolerated if the same was happening to any other group, more like it.
    and yes, people like yourself do need a lecture.
    It's not even hate in most circumstances. It's well founded concern and suspicion based on reality.

    We all agree that if you meet a traveller (who you have reason to believe is a good person) and you mistreat them, this makes you a bad person.

    end of the road wrote: »
    some of them are criminals yes, and the criminality committed by those individuals is a scurge, no different to any criminal within any other group in society who commits crime.
    You keep trying to lump traveller crime in with crime in general. Here's why that's foolish. The majority of criminals in the state aren't travellers agreed. This why it's hard to police them. They are normal members of society and we often can't police them till after they commit a crime.

    With travellers it's different. Here you have a distinct group of people who live apart from everyone else and it is well known that this group's primary income is from the proceeds of crime. The fact that most criminals in this country aren't travellers isn't an excuse not to police the travelling community who we know are highly criminal. That's just stupid. There's also the fact that they mainly operate in rural Ireland which is itself under-policed thanks to garda station closures.


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    #475
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Deebles McBeebles wrote: »
    Oh it definitely is. Not because of racism, because of experience.

    So, its experience that causes the anti-traveller feeling, except you dont care about my experience, sorry it didnt agree with your theory.

    There is a pointless argument that is used often, not by you that I know of, which says it cant be racism unless its the result of skin tone. Use that though if you want. Yeah, if you are racist, just own it.


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    #476
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Sean.3516 wrote: »
    Does that mean that 15% of the male prison population are male travellers? Or that 15% of male travellers are in prison? Just so we're clear.

    15% of the prison population are male travellers, considering they're 0.3% of the population of Ireland thats a staggering disparity.


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    #477
    Sean.3516
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Sean.3516


    na1 wrote: »
    https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/news-media/keepingtravellerswell.pdf

    Maybe the isolated nature of the travelling community will actually protect them from coronavirus?

    But if it doesn't, no doubt we'll be treated to think-pieces in the Irish Times about how bigotry against travellers has led to more of them dying.


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    #478
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 52,014 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    15% of the prison population are male travellers, considering they're 0.3% of the population of Ireland thats a staggering disparity.

    It’s actually 22% from 0.6% when you count male and female prisoners.


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    #479
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    15% of the prison population are male travellers, considering they're 0.3% of the population of Ireland thats a staggering disparity.

    Wasn't the complaint that they are untouchable and the guards are afraid to do anything about the crime they commit. Something doesn't add up.


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    #480
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Morgans wrote: »
    Yeah, if you are racist, just own it.

    Would a pub owner, who is having second thoughts about hosting a traveller wedding in his premises, be considered a racist by you?


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    #481
    Deebles McBeebles
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    Morgans wrote: »
    So, its experience that causes the anti-traveller feeling, except you dont care about my experience, sorry it didnt agree with your theory.

    If it agreed with my "theory", I still wouldn't want to know. Don't take it personally.
    Morgans wrote: »
    There is a pointless argument that is used often, not by you that I know of, which says it cant be racism unless its the result of skin tone. Use that though if you want. Yeah, if you are racist, just own it.

    Why would I need you to give me pointers here? I can form my own arguments. I'm far from racist, not that you really care either way, you've made up your mind. I've seen some of what you've said, I don't agree, that's it. I find your points, and others on here, to make very little sense in the grand scheme of things.


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