Bulgarian workers/Keelings - read OP (threadbans listed)

Quantum Erasure

Bass Reeves wrote: »

These are essential workers they are going to be picking strawberries for my porridge in a few days.

you WANT me on that farm, you NEED me on that farm!

GreeBo

2u2me wrote: »

Let's be honest; no-one will starve without strawberries. How is this even essential? Look at societies acted during war and you'll see what's truly essential. Fines were imposed on people found feeding food to animals.

Now to extend that argument and say that it is so essential that we need bulgarian workers is ridiculous.

Truffles are a food; are they also essential?

No one will starve without apples or steak or crunchy but cornflakes or chocolate or crisps or coke or burgers... Should I go on?
Potatoes and milk, anything else is just a luxury right?

mvl

imo all local fruit/vegetables are essential.


- think these ppl saying that strawberries are not essential are welcome to feed their families of rice dispensers from where I am concerned, and stop going to the shops all together: would be safer for the rest of us.

Bass Reeves

The Apple story

First they protested against the strawberries, I did not speak out because I taught strawberries were indulgent.

Next they protested against the raspberries I did not speak out because I disliked raspberries.

Then they came out against the blackberries I did not speak out because blackberries are prickly

Finally they came for me and there was nobody left to speak for me

Darc19

Scotty # wrote: »

I agree with much of this. I think the first step to reducing child care is means test children's allowance and put that money elsewhere. This is for another thread though.

The cost of means testing would be in excess of the savings.

Had the special offer strawberries from lidl last night. Watery and tasteless - checked out the label which was on the bottom. Produce of Netherlands.

I'll pay double for a sweet juicy irish strawberry

Rows Grower

Darc19 wrote: »

The cost of means testing would be in excess of the savings.

Had the special offer strawberries from lidl last night. Watery and tasteless - checked out the label which was on the bottom. Produce of Netherlands.

I'll pay double for a sweet juicy irish strawberry

How in the name of the sweetest strawberry ever created could you come to this conclusion?

JustAThought

Darc19 wrote: »

The cost of means testing would be in excess of the savings.

Had the special offer strawberries from lidl last night. Watery and tasteless - checked out the label which was on the bottom. Produce of Netherlands.

I'll pay double for a sweet juicy irish strawberry

You could pay with your life.
As could many others.

No strawberry is worth a human life, nurse, careworker, or other.

BMurr

If we were to make war time comparisons, anyone giving the virus an opportunity to spread are the equivalent of folks driving around at night with their headlights on when there was supposed to be a blackout. However such a scenario was obvious to all whereas this thing is invisible and so some people just don't comprehend the danger.

Montage of Feck

mgn wrote: »

And again i'll ask, why can the Construction industry get 150,000 workers, harder work and 10 times more dangerous.

Clue for the clueless. the pay the money to attract them.

Not a fair comparison, your comparing a skilled trade to seasonal un skilled work.

CinemaGuy45

Something I found on another site.

mgn

Montage of Feck wrote: »

Not a fair comparison, your comparing a skilled trade to seasonal un skilled work.

Well according to a few on here picking strawberries is a highly skilled job, and often referred to as horticulture specialist.

Not all construction is skilled work.
A young lad that never worked on a site in his life can get €14.14 an hour on his first day, and that money is guaranteed.

Now for the muppets that keep referring to the Irish as lazy.
Just answer one simple question.

Why would anybody go picking strawberries for the minimum wage, and that nots guaranteed either, when the can go into a building site and do as little as possible, and get €4 an hour more.

GinSoaked

BMurr wrote: »

If we were to make war time comparisons, anyone giving the virus an opportunity to spread are the equivalent of folks driving around at night with their headlights on when there was supposed to be a blackout. However such a scenario was obvious to all whereas this thing is invisible and so some people just don't comprehend the danger.

Your comment made me go looking for this

1874

Bass Reeves wrote: »

These are essential workers they are going to be picking strawberries for my porridge in a few days.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The Apple story

First they protested against the strawberries, I did not speak out because I taught strawberries were indulgent.

You're sounding like something of a plant yourself, what variety? each time you post something that really adds nothing, are you sure you're essential?

BMurr

I worked in textiles industry back in the 1980's. We had our backs to the wall competing with far eastern countries. Eventually it all folded. I don't think it ever crossed anyone's mind to import workers from some poor country and house them out the back of the factories.

bizidea

BMurr wrote: »

If we were to make war time comparisons, anyone giving the virus an opportunity to spread are the equivalent of folks driving around at night with their headlights on when there was supposed to be a blackout. However such a scenario was obvious to all whereas this thing is invisible and so some people just don't comprehend the danger.

I agree completely I really think there are a lot of people out there that just dont realise the seriousness of the situation that the whole world find itself in.
I think there are a lot of people who believe that no it will never happen to me.

CinemaGuy45

For those calling the Irish lazy I call you racist.
What about the NEW IRISH I don't see them taking these jobs despite massive unemployment among them.

Again for those calling the Irish lazy are you going to call me a racist?
The mental gymnastics among you lot is spectacular.

Graham

JustAThought wrote: »

You could pay with your life.
As could many others.

No strawberry is worth a human life, nurse, careworker, or other.

Because every other fruit and vegetable is self picking and hops into a crate using its own kinetic energy?

Or are we still pretending it's safer to have thousands of natives travelling around the country and returning to their families at the end of each day?

Rows Grower

Graham wrote: »

Because every other fruit and vegetable is self picking and hops into a crate using its own kinetic energy?

Or are we still pretending it's safer to have thousands of natives travelling around the country and returning to their families at the end of each day?

You still pretending that it's not dangerous to fly 189 people in from abroad during a global pandemic?

And still under the illusion that it would take thousands of Irish people to do the same amount of work as 189 Bulgarians?

CinemaGuy45

Rows Grower wrote: »

You still pretending that it's not dangerous to fly 189 people in from abroad during a global pandemic?

And still under the illusion that it would take thousands of Irish people to do the same amount of work as 189 Bulgarians?

I remember back in the 80s I use to work as a helper going all over the country there were a lot of roadside strawberry sellers.


Who picked those?;)

is_that_so

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

For those calling the Irish lazy I call you racist.
What about the NEW IRISH I don't see them taking these jobs despite massive unemployment among them.

Again for those calling the Irish lazy are you going to call me a racist?
The mental gymnastics among you lot is spectacular.

It's not laziness but it is the type of scenario where people in an affluent country, and we are affluent, have clear conceptions about what work is and what work we are prepared to do. Many just will not do these jobs even though their skillset and ability may limit them, in what they can do.

CinemaGuy45

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I remember back in the 80s I use to work as a helper going all over the country there were a lot of roadside strawberry sellers.


Who picked those?;)

In a lot of cases school kids because they could be paid less.

Still see a lot of road side sellers btw.

Graham

Rows Grower wrote: »

You still pretending that it's not dangerous to fly 189 people in from abroad during a global pandemic?

I'd suggest it's safer than the alternative.

We're talking one movement of an isolated group of people.

Your alternative is hundreds of movements of hundreds of people to hundreds of locations over dozens of days.

1 x 189 = 189 movements. over 90 days thats 189 movements.

189 x 2 x 90 = 34,020 movements

CinemaGuy45

is_that_so wrote: »

It's not laziness but it is the type of scenario where people in an affluent country, and we are affluent, have clear conceptions about what work is and what work we are prepared to do. Many just will not do these jobs even though their skillset and ability may limit them, in what they can do.

I really do believe in TRUE equality for EVERYBODY a few longterm people on the dole should have been MADE do this work Irish and New Irish maybe let them keep some of the dole to top up the pay a bit but it still would have been a net saving for the taxpayer.

You know the old saying the Devil will find work for idol hands.

CinemaGuy45

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

For those calling the Irish lazy I call you racist.
What about the NEW IRISH I don't see them taking these jobs despite massive unemployment among them.

Again for those calling the Irish lazy are you going to call me a racist?
The mental gymnastics among you lot is spectacular.

People can see your post history and decide.

Plenty of Irish lads in the 80s wouldn't pick fruit for keelings, they used to hire school kids to do it.

CinemaGuy45

DubInMeath wrote: »

In a lot of cases school kids because they could be paid less.

Still see a lot of road side sellers btw.

I work in a fixed location these days and I don't usually travel far and for the last number of weeks my world has shrunk.

It is nice to see people still doing this.:)

Rows Grower

Graham wrote: »

I'd suggest it's safer than the alternative.

We're talking one movement of an isolated group of people.

Your alternative is hundreds of movements of hundreds of people to hundreds of locations over dozens of days.

1 x 189 = 189 movements. over 90 days thats 189 movements.

189 x 2 x 90 = 34,020 movements

That's about the same amount of movements it would take to get rid of all the crap you are full of.

mgn

Graham wrote: »

I'd suggest it's safer than the alternative.

We're talking one movement of an isolated group of people.

Your alternative is hundreds of movements of hundreds of people to hundreds of locations over dozens of days.

1 x 189 = 189 movements. over 90 days thats 189 movements.

189 x 2 x 90 = 34,020 movements

And you think it's okay to stick 6-8 Bulgarians from all over Bulgaria into an apartment.

expectationlost

interview with former Bulgarian worker 2018 https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=156940012419862 offered 3 months work, had to pay for translation and flight stayed in student accommodation near DCU, with 8 week probation period let go after 4 weeks and offered a months work in Scotland that they'd have to pay for flights to. Said the work was very hard as he'd never done it before. He got a job elsewhere.

SNNUS

Some cheek of the Govt to beat us with the complacency stick when they have all these
flights arriving without people been checked.

another one on the way

https://www.flightradar24.com/BLA3VA/24679691

foundation10

Graham wrote: »

I'd suggest it's safer than the alternative.

We're talking one movement of an isolated group of people.

Your alternative is hundreds of movements of hundreds of people to hundreds of locations over dozens of days.

1 x 189 = 189 movements. over 90 days thats 189 movements.

189 x 2 x 90 = 34,020 movements

I would also add that Bulgaria have a lot less of CV than we have and are one of the better performing nations in their fight against it. They have over 1200 cases and 54 deaths to date having a population greater than our own. Going on these stats the movement of an Irish based equivalent number of workers presents a higher risk given our CV numbers and especially its concentration within the Dublin region.

GinSoaked

foundation10 wrote: »

I would also add that Bulgaria have a lot less of CV than we have and are one of the better performing nations in their fight against it. They have over 1200 cases and 54 deaths to date having a population greater than our own. Going on these stats the movement of an Irish based equivalent number of workers presents a higher risk given our CV numbers and especially its concentration within the Dublin region.

I don't trust our figures I don't trust the UKs figures and I certainly don't trust Bugarias figures.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Graham wrote: »

I'd suggest it's safer than the alternative.

We're talking one movement of an isolated group of people.

Your alternative is hundreds of movements of hundreds of people to hundreds of locations over dozens of days.

1 x 189 = 189 movements. over 90 days thats 189 movements.

189 x 2 x 90 = 34,020 movements

The above is the definition of mental gymnastics.

You're adding 900 people to Ireland who weren't there before, in a pandemic situation, flying them in and housing them in conditions where social distancing cannot take place, while the health service is already severely stressed.

foundation10 wrote: »

I would also add that Bulgaria have a lot less of CV than we have and are one of the better performing nations in their fight against it. They have over 1200 cases and 54 deaths to date having a population greater than our own. Going on these stats the movement of an Irish based equivalent number of workers presents a higher risk given our CV numbers and especially its concentration within the Dublin region.

Bulgaria and Romania are way behind in testing compared to Ireland and the confirmed cases plus deaths are not an accurate figure of the virus presence in those countries.

Graham

Steyr 556 wrote: »

You're adding 900 people to Ireland who weren't there before, in a pandemic situation, flying them in and housing them in conditions where social distancing cannot take place

They are isolated.

mgn

Graham wrote: »

They are isolated.

Were the isolated before the came here, were the isolated on the plane.

expectationlost

the idea that people can be isolated on a plane is ridiculous

Scotty #

2u2me wrote: »

Let's be honest; no-one will starve without strawberries. How is this even essential? Look at societies acted during war and you'll see what's truly essential. Fines were imposed on people found feeding food to animals.

Now to extend that argument and say that it is so essential that we need bulgarian workers is ridiculous.

Truffles are a food; are they also essential?

You do realise you're completely contradicting your own argument here? Strawberries are not essential on one hand but food becomes so scarce on the other that it becomes a crime to feed it to an animal.

Are truffles essential, certainly not. Neither is alcohol, crisps, cakes, chocolate, sweets, etc. Yet all these businesses remain in production and as a result, means the travel of thousands of workers in this country from and to their families every day, posing a far far greater risk to our healthcare system than migrant fruit pickers who don't interact with people outside their workplace.

Necessity trumps safety. Yesterday I watched a bin lorry go through our industrial estate. At least three guys in the cab sitting shoulder to shoulder, maybe more in the back row. Should we stop refuse collection in the interest of worker safety or is it actually more important (read: necessary!) to collect refuse? People are STILL going on about social distancing on the plane!! IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE! They are not interacting with the community. They pose a lesser risk to you than your neighbours, family, work mates.

It truly amazing that despite it being sanctioned at an EU level, the UN warning of catastrophic shortages, the fact that we've already seen unnecessary runs on some products in our shops, that Joe Soaps in here that have never been on a farm in their life or worked a day in the food supply business seem to know more than the experts.

Graham

mgn wrote: »

Were the isolated before the came here, were the isolated on the plane.

They are MUCH more isolated than 189 randomers from around the country commuting to and from home/families on a daily basis.

expectationlost

if people don't eat strawberries, they'll eat more of other food

mgn

Scotty # wrote: »

You do realise you're completely contradicting your own argument here? Strawberries are not essential on one hand but food becomes so scarce on the other that it becomes a crime to feed it to an animal.

Are truffles essential, certainly not. Neither is alcohol, crisps, cakes, chocolate, sweets, etc. Yet all these businesses remain in production and as a result, means the travel of thousands of workers in this country from and to their families every day, posing a far far greater risk to our healthcare system than migrant fruit pickers who don't interact with people outside their workplace.

Necessity trumps safety. Yesterday I watched a bin lorry go through our industrial estate. At least three guys in the cab sitting shoulder to shoulder, maybe more in the back row. Should we stop refuse collection in the interest of worker safety or is it actually more important (read: necessary!) to collect refuse? People are STILL going on about social distancing on the plane!! IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE! They are not interacting with the community. They pose a lesser risk to you than your neighbours, family, work mates.

It truly amazing that despite it being sanctioned at an EU level, the UN warning of catastrophic shortages, the fact that we've already seen unnecessary runs on some products in our shops, that Joe Soaps in here that have never been on a farm in their life or worked a day in the food supply business seem to know more than the experts.

So in other words, if one or two Bulgarians had the virus on that plane, that's okay because all the can infect are fellow Bulgarians.
So no worries there as Keelings gets their strawberries picked, and if people die in process ahh well that's life.

mgn

Graham wrote: »

They are MUCH more isolated than 189 randomers from around the country commuting to and from home/families on a daily basis.

The could have offered accommodation to people here and pay them a decent wage too, same thing, instead of bringing in people from another country while the majority of other business in the country is closed down.

And spare me the Irish are lazy and won't do manual work.

The will do it if you pay them.

Scotty #

mgn wrote: »

So in other words, if one or two Bulgarians had the virus on that plane, that's okay because all the can infect are fellow Bulgarians.
So no worries there as Keelings gets their strawberries picked, and if people die in process ahh well that's life.

The alternative is 900 members of the local community doing it. Travelling to and from their homes every day. Putting themselves, their families, and our healthcare system at risk. A far GREATER risk than getting a closed community to do the work. It's very easy to see which is the safer option.

Scotty #

mgn wrote: »

The will do it if you pay them.

How much do you think they are currently on and how much do you think they should be paid. It's not a trick question.


I don't believe the resident workforce don't do it 'because they're lazy". I believe they won't do it mainly because it's temporary work. They would rather take a permanent job even if that job is lower paid.

mgn

Scotty # wrote: »

How much do you think they are currently on and how much do you think they should be paid. It's not a trick question.


I don't believe the resident workforce don't do it 'because they're lazy". I believe they won't do it mainly because it's temporary work. They would rather take a permanent job even if that job is lower paid.

Start off with €15 or €16 an hour none of this paying by weight, at least everyone knows what the have coming at the end of the week.
Anyone that's not up to the job, shown them where the gate is in the evening. simple.

Bass Reeves

1874 wrote: »

You're sounding like something of a plant yourself, what variety? each time you post something that really adds nothing, are you sure you're essential?

Again attack the poster. Am I essential? I have confidence in my own worth and that is the important thing. But no I am not irreplaceable nobody is. Worked with a few fellas that taught they were. One lad looking for stats about his job on his literal deathbed.

Things like that make you consider your own mortality, but on the other hand it makes you understand live is for living. I have always looked at life as s glass half full not half empty.

A bowl of porridge with strawberries is one of those little things in life that make it a worth while. It keeps the glass half full.

Am I a plant you can just look at my posting history if you like.

foundation10

GinSoaked wrote: »

I don't trust our figures I don't trust the UKs figures and I certainly don't trust Bugarias figures.

The stats quoted by me are those from Johns Hopkins Uni, the most relied upon data analysis of CV throughout the world and used by WHO and ECDC. If you are disputing the veracity of such figures that's a debate for another day but for me I look at the facts from Hopkins and use these to inform myself. At present the facts state that the prevalence of CV in Bulgaria is significantly less than that of our country.

Graham

mgn wrote: »

The could have offered accommodation to people here and pay them a decent wage too

In common with most of Western Europe, recruiting locals has become next to impossible particularly for seasonal agricultural work.

That has been the case whether unemployment is high or low.

Insisting we make our produce uncompetitive with the rest of the world is just nonsense. Unless you want to end large swathes of our agriculture sector.

blinding

mgn wrote: »

So in other words, if one or two Bulgarians had the virus on that plane, that's okay because all the can infect are fellow Bulgarians.
So no worries there as Keelings gets their strawberries picked, and if people die in process ahh well that's life.

Sure ,They are Only Bulgarians :eek::eek:

Graham

mgn wrote: »

So in other words, if one or two Bulgarians had the virus on that plane, that's okay because all the can infect are fellow Bulgarians.
So no worries there as Keelings gets their strawberries picked, and if people die in process ahh well that's life.

Your alternative, 2 local pickers, infect 187 other local pickers.

All 189 go home at the end of their shift and infect their families/households who then go on to infect god knows how many while they potter around work/Dunnes/Lidl/Tesco.

That doesn't sound like a great alternative.

Scotty #

mgn wrote: »

Start off with €15 or €16 and hour none of this paying by weight, at least everyone knows what the have coming at the end of the week.
Anyone that's now up to the job, shown them where the gate is in evening. simple.

OK, the first thing that's going to happen there is production is going to go way down but lets leave that to the side for a min.

You currently believe they are min wage, right? €10.10/hr

...and you want to increase this to €15 or €16/hr

Keelings made €310 million last year. Like most companies that size they're probably working on 1-2% profit, I think the last figures that were public were €2.5 million profit but let's say they have a hefty 2% for €6 million profit. How much of that do you think comes from strawberries? €500k? €1m, €2m? I don't know but considering how many foods they do and that they also have the distribution network for many other producers and their imports, I'd say the profit on strawberries is less than €2 million.

Now, you want to increase 900 workers wages by €4.90 to €5.90 an hour. Let's take the lower figure...

That's a DAILY increase in wages (just for strawberries) of €35,280 or €211,000 per week, based on a six day week.

Over the 6 month season you are asking for a wage increase of €5,503,680. Bare in mind that production is down because you are now paying hourly, there is no longer an incentive to work harder, and more workers will be required.


As you can see this is completely untenable. No profit, no jobs, no company, no Irish produce.

EDIT: I'm not advocating these workers should be earning min wage. I'm simply saying that that is the way of the world. It's not fair. It should be fixed but I don't know that it can be.

mgn

blinding wrote: »

Sure ,They are Only Bulgarians :eek::eek:

That's seems to be the thinking of a lot of the Keeling supporters on here alright.