Bulgarian workers/Keelings - read OP (threadbans listed)

Graham

Can't argue with some of the conclusions.

Loony left and hard right in abundance around here.

But let us not succumb to fact-free innuendos. Let us not be apologists for cheap nonsense about foreign workers. Ignore racist rabble rousers online. Challenge those who peddle anti-business dogma for political reasons.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Graham wrote: »

Can't argue with some of the conclusions.

Loony left and hard right in abundance around here.

Graham do you think Mark Paul should have gone with the lately developed argument/spin that importing overseas workers was the safe thing to do during the pandemic since they could all be kept in isolation?

True, it doesn't make sense since there are Irish-based supervisors, canteen staff and a myriad of others mixing with the pickers, not to mention pickers from Ireland amongst them (the brave 40....if they ever got hired).

But it would sound great under the penship of Mark Paul. I'm thinking something like "HEROIC KEELING FAMILY SAVE THE DAY: FOREIGN WORKERS STEP UP TO FEED IRISH NATION".

mgn

Graham wrote: »

Can't argue with some of the conclusions.

Loony left and hard right in abundance around here.

Have a look at the Unite video, you might learn something before you start using quotes from one of the worst pieces of journalism i've seen for a while.

Graham

mgn wrote: »

Have a look at the Unite video, you might learn something before you start using quotes from one of the worst pieces of journalism i've seen for a while.

Derides free press while referring to union propaganda?

Explains much.

Blueshoe

Graham wrote: »

Derides free press while referring to union propaganda?

Explains much.

Taking a journalists personal opinion as fact over the stories given by multiple people who actually worked there

Graham

Blueshoe wrote: »

Taking a journalists personal opinion as fact over the stories given by multiple people who actually worked there

Stories is the keyword there Blueshoe, very light on facts.

Lots of convenient "I had a friend/mate/cousins-cousins-mothers"

Blueshoe

Graham wrote: »

Stories is the keyword there Blueshoe, very light on facts.

Lots of convenient "I had a friend/mate/cousins-cousins-mothers"

No they worked on the farm themselves. You can't really dismiss the video if you didn't watch it. And clearly you didn't watch it.

200 euro take home pay after 40 hours work. Payslip provided. Modern slavery

maestroamado

Blueshoe wrote: »

Taking a journalists personal opinion as fact over the stories given by multiple people who actually worked there

The article was in the Business section.

I also think that one of our leading papers has to have facts when challenging Government or they be shut-out pretty quickly.
The ongoing terms of employment needs to be looked at in this area, it may be that this will make it happen...

Graham

Blueshoe wrote: »

clearly you didn't watch it.

200 euro take home pay after 40 hours work. Payslip provided. Modern slavery

You are free to take union propaganda as fact.

I won't be joining you.

mgn

Graham wrote: »

Derides free press while referring to union propaganda?

Explains much.

I have no reason not to believe the 2 men in the video , do you?

mgn

mgn wrote: »

I have no reason not to believe the 2 men in the video , do you?

Unless they’re praising Saint Keelings then they’re obviously lying.

expectationlost

mgn wrote: »

I have no reason not to believe the 2 men in the video , do you?

did they say anything unbelievable?

smurgen

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Unless they’re praising Saint Keelings then they’re obviously lying.

I'm waiting for the next pathetic line of argument to shift blame from Keelings. It will be the workers fault for not knowing what they were getting into is my bet.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Graham wrote: »

Derides free press while referring to union propaganda?

Explains much.

Oof.

Those two sentiments don’t seem coherent Graham. Surely if you are in favour of a free press you are in favour of unions and workers right to organise? That’s only democratic.

Unless rights are not to be extended to the rabble eh?

markodaly

Graham wrote: »

Can't argue with some of the conclusions.

Loony left and hard right in abundance around here.

Its like stupid squared.

Saw this, reminded me of this.

I think some will be delighted that we will have fresh produce rotting in the ground because some internet warriors stuck it to 'da man'.

markodaly

mgn wrote: »

Have a look at the Unite video, you might learn something before you start using quotes from one of the worst pieces of journalism i've seen for a while.

I lol'd.

"I want to choose the facts that conform to my own world view"

nacho libre

Graham wrote: »

You are free to take union propaganda as fact.

I won't be joining you.

So now the union is distorting what the two workers said, is that it?


I suppose it's easier for you to believe that nonsense, than accept these two men might be telling the truth, which undermines your argument that Keelings are a great outfit to work for.


I wonder would you be as quick to cite the charge of propaganda if two workers were detailing how wonderful it is to work at Keeling?

mgn

markodaly wrote: »

I lol'd.

"I want to choose the facts that conform to my own world view"

What, the facts of two men who worked there or some mickey mouse journalist fawning over the Keeling, like we would all starve to death without them.

Graham

So ignore the news and listen to the unions?

Hmmmmm

Now we're getting to the bottom of it alright.

“News”

s1ippy

Well, typically the objective of the news is to perpetuate the utilitarian societal systems in place, where they regard them as beneficial. The objective of unions is to protect individuals from exploitation at work. Those two groups are quite possibly going to find their narratives at odds, particularly on polarising issues around Covid19 because they are literally life and death for one in five people. The media have a stake in the economy ticking away, so they're going to take the view that individual freedoms or rights are less meaningful now and that large-scale engagement with commerce as normal is the only thing that will sort this.

Now, this is at odds with utilitarianism whether or not they know it, because the ramifications is of turning around now and loosening restrictions won't be felt until months after people go back to pretending things are normal.

It is the responsibility of the unions to make sure that workers are shielded from being statistics in all of this, sacrificed for the sake of the economy. Whether they will actually do this or they're too invested in the economic narrative due to corruption remains to be seen.

I have been in touch with my union and they appear to be hell-bent on sending us to the firing line, so I may not be able to engage with them if I have any self-preservation. I'm making the gamble there going with what I'm reading and seeing about this virus and taking no chances but I will likely inevitably lose my job. Although this may not matter, because life as it was is over for the next few years at least, possibly forever.

maestroamado

s1ippy wrote: »

Well, typically the objective of the news is to perpetuate the utilitarian societal systems in place, where they regard them as beneficial. The objective of unions is to protect individuals from exploitation at work. Those two groups are quite possibly going to find their narratives at odds, particularly on polarising issues around Covid19 because they are literally life and death for one in five people. The media have a stake in the economy ticking away, so they're going to take the view that individual freedoms or rights are less meaningful now and that large-scale engagement with commerce as normal is the only thing that will sort this.

Now, this is at odds with utilitarianism whether or not they know it, because the ramifications is of turning around now and loosening restrictions won't be felt until months after people go back to pretending things are normal.




It is the responsibility of the unions to make sure that workers are shielded from being statistics in all of this, sacrificed for the sake of the economy. Whether they will actually do this or they're too invested in the economic narrative due to corruption remains to be seen.

I have been in touch with my union and they appear to be hell-bent on sending us to the firing line, so I may not be able to engage with them if I have any self-preservation. I'm making the gamble there going with what I'm reading and seeing about this virus and taking no chances but I will likely inevitably lose my job. Although this may not matter, because life as it was is over for the next few years at least, possibly forever.

Very good post but i cannot figure out your roll in it?

Scotty #

Blueshoe wrote: »

200 euro take home pay after 40 hours work.

This is a grossly misleading statement.

The Unite rep shows his payslip, which clearly shows his wage was €486.98 gross. He then had €19.48 PRSI deducted. No PAYE deduction as he's not liable for any. So his actual take home was €467.50.

This includes a min wage adjustment of almost €90 because he didn't pick nearly enough to bring him up to min wage per hour for the hours he worked. This is also undoubtedly the reason he was shown the gate after 8 weeks.

The Unite goes on to say "but you had to pay €95 accommodation, and some other expenses' and you're left with about €200. So you're basically working for €200?" WTF!?!?! NO! This is not how it works!

Someone should really be telling the Unite guy how employment works in this country. When people in this country, and every other country get paid, they THEN have to go and pay their living expenses! It's not the other way round.

An absolute disgracefully misleading attempt by Unite to put words in the guys mouth and totally misrepresent the situation. Shame on them!

2u2me

It's just a shame we can't believe those Bulgarian workers.

If only they weren't on probation for 8 weeks out of a 12 week contract
Or weren't afraid of not receiving an invitation next year
Or perhaps if they had a union of their own
Or perhaps if they were allowed to congregate with locals and tell their story.
Perhaps if our media did actual investigative journalism instead of that tripe posted earlier

We might know.

I guess we'll never know.

Graham

Scotty # wrote: »

An absolute disgracefully misleading attempt by Unite to put words in the guys mouth and totally misrepresent the situation. Shame on them!

No surprise to be honest.

Notice the union flag-wavers conveniently skip over inconvenient things like pay slips.

Candidates no doubt chosen to avoid anyone that's actually good at picking.

weldoninhio

GinSoaked wrote: »

That isn't how it works. The employer pays that how do you think recruitment agencies work?

So absolutely nothing like the way Keelings works. Just wanted to clear that up. Thanks.

weldoninhio

Keelings owned through IOM. Wonder how much tax they pay here??


“Keelings is owned jointly by Joe Keeling (who recently took up the role of chairman of Horse Racing Ireland) and his three children. It is unlimited and the shares are held through Isle of Man entities. As a result, it does not have to file annual accounts. Keeling is happy to disclose the group’s turnover, but replies to a question about profits with a laugh and the comment “not enough” before expanding her answer slightly: “Sorry we don’t share that”.

2u2me

Scotty # wrote: »

This is a grossly misleading statement.

The Unite rep shows his payslip, which clearly shows his wage was €486.98 gross. He then had €19.48 PRSI deducted. No PAYE deduction as he's not liable for any. So his actual take home was €467.50.

This includes a min wage adjustment of almost €90 because he didn't pick nearly enough to bring him up to min wage per hour for the hours he worked. This is also undoubtedly the reason he was shown the gate after 8 weeks.

The Unite goes on to say "but you had to pay €95 accommodation, and some other expenses' and you're left with about €200. So you're basically working for €200?" WTF!?!?! NO! This is not how it works!

Someone should really be telling the Unite guy how employment works in this country. When people in this country, and every other country get paid, they THEN have to go and pay their living expenses! It's not the other way round.

An absolute disgracefully misleading attempt by Unite to put words in the guys mouth and totally misrepresent the situation. Shame on them!

You're perspective is also misleading. How do you know those targets by keelings are fair targets? (Hence why they change workers so often)

Let's take the maths of 8 weeks work.

€467.50 * 8 = €3,740
he paid €500 to agency for the privilege of working for the farmer. €3,240
That's if he's lucky enough to get to 8 weeks.

Now that is based on a fifty hour week as per his payslip.

3,250 /400 = €8.10 per hour. For fifty hours of gruelling labour come rain or shine. If you ever watch Dan Ariely talk about the sisyphus condition you'll know why no one applies for these jobs except the very desperate.

Then keelings charge him for rent and food aswell(€95 seems pricey enough to be living on farm). They don't supply enough toilets, not many have rooms to themselves. Work 50 hours with no overtime pay. They can't complain as they are on probation. They have no union.

Alrigghtythen

Scotty # wrote: »

This is a grossly misleading statement.

The Unite rep shows his payslip, which clearly shows his wage was €486.98 gross. He then had €19.48 PRSI deducted. No PAYE deduction as he's not liable for any. So his actual take home was €467.50.

This includes a min wage adjustment of almost €90 because he didn't pick nearly enough to bring him up to min wage per hour for the hours he worked. This is also undoubtedly the reason he was shown the gate after 8 weeks.

The Unite goes on to say "but you had to pay €95 accommodation, and some other expenses' and you're left with about €200. So you're basically working for €200?" WTF!?!?! NO! This is not how it works!

Someone should really be telling the Unite guy how employment works in this country. When people in this country, and every other country get paid, they THEN have to go and pay their living expenses! It's not the other way round.

An absolute disgracefully misleading attempt by Unite to put words in the guys mouth and totally misrepresent the situation. Shame on them!

It just shows how out of touch with reality that union is.



Who deductes rent and salary from their gross salary and then declares that's the wage.

Alrigghtythen

2u2me wrote: »

You're perspective is also misleading. How do you know those targets by keelings are fair targets? (Hence why they change workers so often)

Let's take the maths of 8 weeks work.

€467.50 * 8 = €3,740
he paid €500 to agency for the privilege of working for the farmer. €3,240
That's if he's lucky enough to get to 8 weeks.

Now that is based on a fifty hour week as per his payslip.

3,250 /400 = €8.10 per hour. For fifty hours of gruelling labour come rain or shine. If you ever watch Dan Ariely talk about the sisyphus condition you'll know why no one applies for these jobs except the very desperate.

Then keelings charge him for rent and food aswell(€95 seems pricey enough to be living on farm). They don't supply enough toilets, not many have rooms to themselves. Work 50 hours with no overtime pay. They can't complain as they are on probation. They have no union.

I wonder if they "change workers so often" is because fruit by its nature is seasonal and at some periods of the year they may need more workers than others.

Scotty #

2u2me wrote: »

Let's take the maths of 8 weeks work.

I don't have a 'perspective'. I've given you the facts based on the payslip provided by the Unite video.

You're deduction his PRSI contributions and then saying "look, he's on less than minimum wage". The min wage is based on gross, not net.

It's also based on a 48 hour week, not 50 and there is overtime. Do you know how to read a payslip?

Here's a clue... OT = Overtime.

Scotty #

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

It just shows how out of touch with reality that union is.

Oh they're not out of touch at all. They're blatantly trying to represent the truth in way to suit their agenda. They know exactly what they are doing.

markodaly

mgn wrote: »

What, the facts of two men who worked there or some mickey mouse journalist fawning over the Keeling, like we would all starve to death without them.

If you mean them as agri-business, then yes, you would starve.

Id say most here couldn't tell the difference between a cow and a horse, or tillage farming and dairy farming.

But sure, I am looking forward to 900 Irish fruit pickers given jobs.

2u2me

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

I wonder if they "change workers so often" is because fruit by its nature is seasonal and at some periods of the year they may need more workers than others.

It's a nice way of keeping your 'employees' in-line eh? Work harder, stay quiet or you won't get an invite next time.

markodaly

Scotty # wrote: »

This is a grossly misleading statement.

The Unite rep shows his payslip, which clearly shows his wage was €486.98 gross. He then had €19.48 PRSI deducted. No PAYE deduction as he's not liable for any. So his actual take home was €467.50.

This includes a min wage adjustment of almost €90 because he didn't pick nearly enough to bring him up to min wage per hour for the hours he worked. This is also undoubtedly the reason he was shown the gate after 8 weeks.

The Unite goes on to say "but you had to pay €95 accommodation, and some other expenses' and you're left with about €200. So you're basically working for €200?" WTF!?!?! NO! This is not how it works!

Someone should really be telling the Unite guy how employment works in this country. When people in this country, and every other country get paid, they THEN have to go and pay their living expenses! It's not the other way round.

An absolute disgracefully misleading attempt by Unite to put words in the guys mouth and totally misrepresent the situation. Shame on them!

Sure we all know, that when we get our pay slips we don't have to use that money to pay ANY bills whatsoever, apart from a few pints.

We all don't have to pay rent, put petrol into the car, pay the gas bill.... :p

Unite, like most Unions in this country are a bunch of charlatans. If they could, they would ban every single foreign worker coming into this country.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

If you mean them as agri-business, then yes, you would starve.

Id say most here couldn't tell the difference between a cow and a horse, or tillage farming and dairy farming.

But sure, I am looking forward to 900 Irish fruit pickers given jobs.

He didn’t mean the agri business though. he’s meant Keelings specifically.

markodaly

2u2me wrote: »

Then keelings charge him for rent and food aswell(€95 seems pricey enough to be living on farm). They don't supply enough toilets, not many have rooms to themselves. Work 50 hours with no overtime pay. They can't complain as they are on probation. They have no union.

What sort of dumb nonsense is this being posted. It LITERALLY says O/T on the pay slip.

That is an acronym for Over-Time.

Can you read?

markodaly

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

He didn’t mean the agri business though. he’s meant Keelings specifically.

Doesnt matter. They are part of that business. Its how this business has been operating for over 20 years.

The main reason Irish people are no longer working these jobs is that the dole is too generous.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Scotty # wrote: »

The Unite goes on to say "but you had to pay €95 accommodation, and some other expenses' and you're left with about €200. So you're basically working for €200?" WTF!?!?! NO! This is not how it works!

Someone should really be telling the Unite guy how employment works in this country. When people in this country, and every other country get paid, they THEN have to go and pay their living expenses! It's not the other way round.

You're presenting an argument that assumes that the workers brought in and the workers resident full-time in this state have the same opportunities towards accommodation.

They don't.

It's true, workers everywhere have to contend with some costs, whether it's food, fuel or housing. However with workers resident in Ireland full-time, they at least have the opportunity to look at other places to rent, other places to shop, other means of getting to and from work. The Keeling staff don't have any option to change because the accommodation is part of the contract and non-negotiable.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Doesnt matter. They are part of that business. Its how this business has been operating for over 20 years.

The main reason Irish people are no longer working these jobs is that the dole is too generous.

Of course it matters. Nobody meant the agri business as a whole, you’ve just done that to suit yourself.

2u2me

markodaly wrote: »

What sort of dumb nonsense is this being posted. It LITERALLY says O/T on the pay slip.

That is an acronym for Over-Time.

Can you read?

Scotty # wrote: »

I don't have a 'perspective'. I've given you the facts based on the payslip provided by the Unite video.

You're deduction his PRSI contributions and then saying "look, he's on less than minimum wage". The min wage is based on gross, not net.

It's also based on a 48 hour week, not 50 and there is overtime. Do you know how to read a payslip?

Here's a clue... OT = Overtime.

Lads if ye're going to quibble about a few cents per hour and avoid the overarching themes of the points I made go ahead, I have no time for ye're nonsense.

Scotty #

Steyr 556 wrote: »

You're presenting an argument that assumes that the workers brought in and the workers resident full-time in this state have the same opportunities towards accommodation.

They don't.

You're right. The locals would be paying far more out of their wage to pay mortgages and rent.

Scotty #

2u2me wrote: »

Lads if ye're going to quibble about a few cents per hour and avoid the overarching themes of the points I made go ahead, I have no time for ye're nonsense.

Hmm it's hardly a 'few cents'. The Unite video proclaims he's 'basically working for €200/week" and then shows a payslip showing his take home to be €467.

Do you honestly not see a problem there? Honestly?

weldoninhio

Scotty # wrote: »

You're right. The locals would be paying far more out of their wage to pay mortgages and rent.

Lots of places on Daft in and around Swords/Santry for less than €380 a month, which Keelings are charging. And for single rooms too. Not sharing a cramped space with another person.

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Scotty # wrote: »

You're right. The locals would be paying far more out of their wage to pay mortgages and rent.

That's an assumption on your part. You don't know if a local is living with family, or has a cheaper situation, or perhaps yes, even has a more expensive commute.

markodaly

2u2me wrote: »

Lads if ye're going to quibble about a few cents per hour and avoid the overarching themes of the points I made go ahead, I have no time for ye're nonsense.

If you don't want people pointing out your mistakes and brain farts, then perhaps double check your posts for simple errors, or if you cant do that, stop posting fake news and nonesense.

Its very simple.

Scotty #

weldoninhio wrote: »

Lots of places on Daft in and around Swords/Santry for less than €380 a month, which Keelings are charging. And for single rooms too. Not sharing a cramped space with another person.

I don't see anything in the contract (also shown in the video) that says they can't find their own accommodation. It just says they have to be on time. It also says they can work a second job elsewhere as long as it doesn't interfere with their max working time hours.

It's unclear in both interviews if it's €95/room or €95 per person.

markodaly

Scotty # wrote: »

Hmm it's hardly a 'few cents'. The Unite video proclaims he's 'basically working for €200/week" and then shows a payslip showing his take home to be €467.

Do you honestly not see a problem there? Honestly?

An honest question. Where does the Unite guy get the '€200 a week' from?

Did he just take some number out of thin air and presented it like a hard cold, researched fact.

Doesnt Trump do that on a daily basis?

Trump also disparages foreigners and migrants.
I guess many in this thread have a lot in common with him.

2u2me

Scotty # wrote: »

Hmm it's hardly a 'few cents'. The Unite video proclaims he's 'basically working for €200/week" and then shows a payslip showing his take home to be €467.

Do you honestly not see a problem there? Honestly?

Yeah I noticed that on first watch. It's wrong. But I believe just as wrong as people pointing to the minimum wage and saying look they're being treated fairly!

maestroamado

To me €467.80 seems pretty fair and i suppose the only way of supervision is performance factor.
If they getting bed and food for €95 pw that seems fair, i assume they well looked after as you need to eat well to do this work.
The one thing i would gripe about is the agency fee €40+ pw for the privilage of hard labour.
I think at least half of this should be returned on completion of full time.
I wonder who pays for the flights on normal year?