At least he speaks the truth

Huntergonzo

Candie wrote: »

I know it's fake, it's quoted because it's an accurate reflection of how he sees his voters.

But it is fake news, you can't quote somebody on something they never said and then basically say, 'oh ok he didn't say that but that's what he would say'.

Candie wrote: »

He has pulled off an amazing feat, he's convinced some of the poorest and least educated people in the US that he, a billionaire, is all about their interests. And they believe him, the billionaire.

Look I have no horse in this race and even if I was American I would not have voted for Trump nor Clinton for that matter but a poltician lying to poor people to get votes is not exactly rare!

Granted Trump's lies were very overt and over the top to the point of being entertaining at times. But again lies at election time are basically common practise, and probably the world over sadly.

El_Duderino 09

Slanty wrote: »

We can all sit here and give out about him but at least he has the balls to come out and call it what it is.

Trump says what everyone is thinking. Maybe not in the most political way or best worded. However he has a point.

China should pay for this but the only person who is willing accept this is him.

What's the big deal? China has lied about the numbers of people infected and died with coronavirus. And what? Who expects China to be honest about these things? Is it the WHO's job to call them out or is it their job to work with nations to help with the health crisis?

I presumed it's just their job to be pragmatic and help solve he crisis.

It's just a distraction that Trump is using to take attention form his own performance. It doesn't matter whether it's the governors or the Democrats or the Chinese or the WHO. It's just important that there's someone to blame.

fryup

anyone with a bit nuance & charisma would wipe the floor with Trump......but Joe Biden ??

i mean ffs what are the Democrats thinking putting him forward as a candidate:rolleyes: a 77 year old Plank, he has personality of a wardrobe

..its going to be another 4 years of Trump i think

Huntergonzo

fryup wrote: »

anyone with a bit nuance & charisma would wipe the floor with Trump......but Joe Biden :rolleyes:

i mean ffs what are the Democrats thinking putting him forward as a candidate ?? a 77 year old Plank, he has personality of a wardrobe

Most likely they want Trump elected again so he can do even more damage to the Republican party.

Manc_Red

Trump of course was/is a total idiot that would sell ice to an Eskimo. This behavior about the virus and the blame game he is openly going about doing is now becoming an absolute embarrassment to the States though.

Does he really care for the average American who has contracted this disease or is he just wanting the States back to work to keep his puppet-masters happy making money again?

Whatever you think I'm very sure that you could agree that these press conferences are solely being used as a platform to get him a second term in the Oval office - which for me says it all about the guy, he is only worried about himself and how he looks to the American public.

The real truth is that his country is in serious trouble of this becoming a 6 figure death-toll that he has selfishly mismanaged.

Blood is on his hands imho.

Montage of Feck

Im not sure you know the meaning of the word "truth" OP.

truth
[truːθ]

NOUN

(the truth)
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

FreshCoffee

Candie wrote: »

Not all Trump voters are racist bigots, but all racist bigots are Trump voters imo.

The man lies, he lies about everything, his ego is so fragile that he can't be challenged without just shouting 'Fake'. He is using the scattergun approach to dissipate the blame that so roundly belongs on his own shoulders, and wanted emergency checks delayed so he can have his signature printed on them. Not just his name, his signature. He's a malignant narcissist who will put profit before human life every time because he doesn't identify with the people who vote for him, he uses them. He has nothing but contempt for them. If he ever thinks about them at all, it's as a means to an end and fodder for his ego.

Sadly there is as much anti-Trump fake news as there is pro-Trump fake news. This was well debunked but still circulates and is usually presented as if true unless challenged.

From Snopes 2015: www.snopes.com/fact-check/1998-trump-people-quote/

"Despite People‘s comprehensive online content archive, we found no interview or profile on Donald Trump in 1998 (or any other time) that quoted his saying anything that even vaguely resembled the words in this meme."

weisses

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh id say hes gonna be reelected alright, poor americans

Why ??? If They gonna re elect that sad excuse for a human being they deserve all that they are getting

nthclare

in fairness take Trump out of the equation for a second.

Anything I have at home that's made in America before they shipped a lot of their factories to China, is top quantity.

Especially my Penn fishing reels, there's a huge difference in the same so called upgraded version made in the far East

And the components are way better, there's a reel called the Penn 525 mag original my first one is 19 year's old and it's outlived it's far east predessors... still smooth and flawless.

Order a t-shirt from America you'll get top dollar for your buck...

If Trump could persuade the the factories to come back and bring back car manufacturers too and open up the steel industries etc

Principles before personalities ain't always easy....

El_Duderino 09

fryup wrote: »

anyone with a bit nuance & charisma would wipe the floor with Trump......but Joe Biden ??

i mean ffs what are the Democrats thinking putting him forward as a candidate:rolleyes: a 77 year old Plank, he has personality of a wardrobe

..its going to be another 4 years of Trump i think

Joe Biden is a normal presidential candidate. Trump is just an extraordinary campaigner. He’s an entertainer which is a massive boost to getting elected.

Trump can control the narrative and the entire news cycle with the outrageous things he says. His voters don't mind but the Democrats wouldn't vote for Biden if he said equally outrageous things. So its an uneven playing field.

Wanderer78

weisses wrote:

Why ??? If They gonna re elect that sad excuse for a human being they deserve all that they are getting

So watching people suffer is okay? Again, bare in mind, the American political system isn't exactly democratic

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So watching people suffer is okay? Again, bare in mind, the American political system isn't exactly democratic

All their candidates are rich, or are so neck deep in obligations to lobbyists that they're excluded from being representative of the people.

Consider how much their net worth increases while being in office... It's ridiculous that a public servant should profit so much from their positions (I'm including their administrations in that.)

Ipso

nthclare wrote: »

in fairness take Trump out of the equation for a second.

Anything I have at home that's made in America before they shipped a lot of their factories to China, is top quantity.

Especially my Penn fishing reels, there's a huge difference in the same so called upgraded version made in the far East

And the components are way better, there's a reel called the Penn 525 mag original my first one is 19 year's old and it's outlived it's far east predessors... still smooth and flawless.

Order a t-shirt from America you'll get top dollar for your buck...

If Trump could persuade the the factories to come back and bring back car manufacturers too and open up the steel industries etc

Principles before personalities ain't always easy....

Trump’s own clothing line was made in Vietnam. Also staffs his resort with immigrants.

Back to the thread title. It takes some mental gymnastics to state a pathological liar speaks the truth.

Ipso

FreshCoffee wrote: »

Sadly there is as much anti-Trump fake news as there is pro-Trump fake news. This was well debunked but still circulates and is usually presented as if true unless challenged.

From Snopes 2015: www.snopes.com/fact-check/1998-trump-people-quote/

"Despite People‘s comprehensive online content archive, we found no interview or profile on Donald Trump in 1998 (or any other time) that quoted his saying anything that even vaguely resembled the words in this meme."

Yeah. Hilarious that people will believe a Made up facebook meme to laugh at other people’s stupidity.

office of information

Trump is right about the corona crisis. Lock down for everyone leads to nothing but a bad economy. Only one thing is truly effective and that is thermal identification followed by tests. That way you can immediately lock up all positive cases.

Stateofyou

office of information wrote: »

Trump is right about the corona crisis. Lock down for everyone leads to nothing but a bad economy. Only one thing is truly effective and that is thermal identification followed by tests. That way you can immediately lock up all positive cases.

When will mass surveillance in towns, cities and rural areas be available for thermal identification? Asking for 330 million friends.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

When will mass surveillance in towns, cities and rural areas be available for thermal identification? Asking for 330 million friends.

Pretty much.

And while I would trust the Irish government not to take advantage of such a system to control a population... I wouldn't trust an American government which is so tied to the corporations.

Hangdogroad

Candie wrote: »

Not all Trump voters are racist bigots, but all racist bigots are Trump voters imo.

The man lies, he lies about everything, his ego is so fragile that he can't be challenged without just shouting 'Fake'. He is using the scattergun approach to dissipate the blame that so roundly belongs on his own shoulders, and wanted emergency checks delayed so he can have his signature printed on them. Not just his name, his signature. He's a malignant narcissist who will put profit before human life every time because he doesn't identify with the people who vote for him, he uses them. He has nothing but contempt for them. If he ever thinks about them at all, it's as a means to an end and fodder for his ego.

I agree with most of your post but that quote at the bottom has been discredited, he never said that.

MadYaker

Speaks the truth lol. He tells veritable lies on a daily basis. Honestly I often find myself wondering if I live in the same dimension as trump supporters.

office of information wrote: »

Trump is right about the corona crisis. Lock down for everyone leads to nothing but a bad economy. Only one thing is truly effective and that is thermal identification followed by tests. That way you can immediately lock up all positive cases.

How can he be right about something he ever said?

Mental Mickey

He's a bellend. And a nutcase.

JL555

Tell me how wrote: »

At this point, anyone who doesn't get annoyed by Trump I believe is deliberately doing so for one of 3 reasons.
They are playing their own game.
They lack a sense of moral quality.
They lack the intelligence to understand what is going on.

He is every bit as bad as some suggested he would be before he became President.
He has demonstrably lied more than any US President in history.

Perhaps some people don't get annoyed by him because they just couldn't give a toss. I think your comment is quite sanctimonious, speaking of which, we have plenty of of our own politicians who act as such, Harris for example, now he's someone I find to be a complete tosser. I always find it strange that the people who say they can't stand Trump are the ones who are always talking about him.

SeanW

You might not like Trump, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. And this broken clock is entirely correct about the World Health Organisation.

Two left wing sources, Slate and the Washington Post, both outline some recent events that clearly demonstrate cause for concern with the actions of both the Chinese Communist Party and the WHO. Slate and the WP are not exactly known for being in the Trump-o-sphere.

Slate of course has to play up accusations of whatever "ism" it can in line with radical left identity politics, but the good stuff in this Slate article starts about halfway down.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/taiwan-who-tedros-racism-china.html

In the early days of the outbreak, health officials in Taipei say the WHO ignored their warnings—based on communication with mainland colleagues—that the disease could be transmitted between humans, slowing the global response to the growing threat. Instead, in mid-January, the organization issued a now-infamous endorsement of China’s finding that there was no human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus in Wuhan. The WHO continued to praise China’s handling of the virus throughout January, despite abundant evidence that authorities were covering up the severity of the situation in Wuhan. This praise was especially stark in contrast to the organization’s criticism of China during SARS.

Washington Post has a somewhat more balanced view where it more forcefully makes the point that Taiwan must be allowed to participate in some way in global health co-operation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/taiwan-must-join-who-global-health-is-too-important-play-politics/

The facts are clear:

1. The Chinese Communist Party lied, and people died. All over the world.
2. The WHO has been playing politics with the CCP. As such, they accepted and repeated China's lies and are a direct cause of the Wuhan pandemic.
3. "News" sources like CNN are more worried about Trump calling Covid-19 a Chinese virus - or anything else they can spin as a negative - than anything real to do with the virus.

At the absolute minimum, all free nations should suspend funding to the WHO until:

1. Taiwan is admitted at least as an observer.
2. A full and impartial investigation into the WHO and its ties to the CCP has been carried out, and any remedial actions taken or started.
3. The current leader of the WHO, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, had been fired or has resigned.

nigeldaniel

I cannot say I support Trump at all. The manner in which he says things is mainly to gee up his support base. That is evident by the way small numbers go out of their way to support him. As a person, he comes across as just plain arrogant.

faceman

Trump communication is simple. He gives different messages on the same topic and when one comes to fruition he takes credit for it saying he said that.

The amount of idiots who can’t see it is astounding. People seem to filter out the incorrect stuff to suit their beliefs and uninformed selves.

Tell me how

JL555 wrote: »

Perhaps some people don't get annoyed by him because they just couldn't give a toss. I think your comment is quite sanctimonious, speaking of which, we have plenty of of our own politicians who act as such, Harris for example, now he's someone I find to be a complete tosser. I always find it strange that the people who say they can't stand Trump are the ones who are always talking about him.

You can find it any way you want.

The truth probably hurts. His style, practice, behavior, rhetoric is not good for the world. I find people who give out about others always talking about him seem to dislike a light being shone on anything negative he has done, or continues to do.

Rubberchikken

Every politician says what he thinks the public wants to hear.

The clowns in politics nowadays are so concerned about public opinion they can't have an original idea or be able to say what they actually think or even what might actually be necessary.

I like president Trump and admit he may bal$s up sometimes but he at least attempts to say what he thinks.

Tell me how

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Every politician says what he thinks the public wants to hear.

The clowns in politics nowadays are so concerned about public opinion they can't have an original idea or be able to say what they actually think or even what might actually be necessary.

I like president Trump and admit he may bal$s up sometimes but he at least attempts to say what he thinks.

Doesn't that sound like a good thing in any democracy?

SeanW

SeanW wrote: »

[*]The Chinese Communist Party lied, and people died. All over the world.

Yup, they lied, but let's be a little bit more honest and admit that the amount of time lost wasn't that much, considering how long western governments especially the US dismissed the threat of the virus. Had the CCP been upfront about what they knew, likely it would have been dismissed as an Asian problem, and nothing would have changed... The manner in which western governments responded when the threat was known, is proof of that.

I'm amazed by how much posters are focusing on the Chinese. Where were the US intelligence agencies while this was all happening? They keep China under observation all the time, and the US didn't identify and warn their allies of a virus threat within China...

I left China on the 21st of January, and the existence of the virus was known. The only check I received was in China when leaving. In Istanbul or Dublin, I wasn't checked, nor was I asked a single question about where I was coming from. Nor did I receive any messages after I had arrived in Ireland. None. No request for me to get checked out or anything. I did it myself.

There is too much shifting of blame going on here. We want Chinese support to deal with the virus because they still have a massive industrial and economic base to produce vaccines once it has been created. Blaming China for what happened is counter-productive, unless you're simply looking for someone to blame, when we find out that western nations are ill-prepared to actually manufacture and distribute a vaccine. Frankly, I'd prefer we stopped the blame game (which provides nothing of value), and move on towards resolving the problems at hand.

[*]The WHO has been playing politics with the CCP. As such, they accepted and repeated China's lies and are a direct cause of the Wuhan pandemic.

So, the problem is that the WHO played politics with China as opposed to continuing to play politics with western nations especially the US? The WHO have always been tied to political agendas. It's just that they chose to side with China over all of this... I'm not defending the WHO. They should have put the interests of the world over petty politics, although I can understand the need to play nice with China if they wished any degree of cooperation... and with Trump at the helm in the US, they'd have to do the same with the US.

[*]"News" sources like CNN are more worried about Trump calling Covid-19 a Chinese virus - or anything else they can spin as a negative - than anything real to do with the virus.

Maybe... but then, calling it a China virus is insulting and is quite inaccurate. There have been numerous viruses and diseases which came out of various countries without those countries being directly named for them. Should we be renaming AIDS, or Ebola to reflect it's origin? what kind of message does that send?

While I agree that the WHO needs to be investigated, it is needed to be in operation right now. We have a global epidemic, and it is foolish to remove an organisation that was created to deal with such things. It is the administrators of the WHO who should be investigated, and the doctors/scientists allowed to continue their research into Covid.

To reduce the loss of life from covid, we should be putting aside this need to assign blame, and focus on resolving the crisis.

nigeldaniel

nigeldaniel wrote: »

I cannot say I support Trump at all. The manner in which he says things is mainly to gee up his support base. That is evident by the way small numbers go out of their way to support him. As a person, he comes across as just plain arrogant.

I find Trump to be a bit of a muppet. He's a troll. He enjoys the emotional responses he receives from his opponents. He intentionally does things that will fire up the indignation and anger from other people, feeding off it all.

But, Trump is simply a reflection of how American politics has gone. Obama was smooth as silk, but hardly trustworthy. H.Clinton is just as corrupt as Trump, and probably as two-faced, but people ignore her behavior because she's not as in-your-face as Trump. People seem to want that smooth attitude, and are willing to forgive anything to get it.

Frankly, there hasn't been a US president since Bill Clinton who appeared even remotely honest, and suitable for the office of the President... Trump.. meh! H.Clinton... Meh! They're all as bad as each other.

Ipso

SeanW wrote: »

You might not like Trump, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. And this broken clock is entirely correct about the World Health Organisation.

Two left wing sources, Slate and the Washington Post, both outline some recent events that clearly demonstrate cause for concern with the actions of both the Chinese Communist Party and the WHO. Slate and the WP are not exactly known for being in the Trump-o-sphere.

Slate of course has to play up accusations of whatever "ism" it can in line with radical left identity politics, but the good stuff in this Slate article starts about halfway down.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/04/taiwan-who-tedros-racism-china.html


Washington Post has a somewhat more balanced view where it more forcefully makes the point that Taiwan must be allowed to participate in some way in global health co-operation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/taiwan-must-join-who-global-health-is-too-important-play-politics/

The facts are clear:

1. The Chinese Communist Party lied, and people died. All over the world.
2. The WHO has been playing politics with the CCP. As such, they accepted and repeated China's lies and are a direct cause of the Wuhan pandemic.
3. "News" sources like CNN are more worried about Trump calling Covid-19 a Chinese virus - or anything else they can spin as a negative - than anything real to do with the virus.

At the absolute minimum, all free nations should suspend funding to the WHO until:

1. Taiwan is admitted at least as an observer.
2. A full and impartial investigation into the WHO and its ties to the CCP has been carried out, and any remedial actions taken or started.
3. The current leader of the WHO, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, had been fired or has resigned.

Well if he doesn’t like the WHO he doesn’t have much of a domestic equivalent as he defunded them. Read the man’s tweets from around mid January onwards. He’s full of it. He needs to shut up and stay off twitte.

"At least he speaks the truth", except for the 12,019 times he has made false or misleading claims since taking office.

The Washington Post is keeping a count of them.

Ahwell

Ahwell wrote: »

"At least he speaks the truth", expect for the 12,019 times he has made false or misleading claims since taking office.

The Washington Post is keeping a count of them.

Might be useful for reference, if they did the same for other US presidential candidates, or prominent US politicians.

JL555

Ahwell wrote: »

"At least he speaks the truth", expect for the 12,019 times he has made false or misleading claims since taking office.

The Washington Post is keeping a count of them.

So he really just lies about the same as every other politician.

alchemist33

JL555 wrote: »

So he really just lies about the same as every other politician.

No, he doesn't.

looksee

Maybe he was right about the WHO, maybe he wasn't. His problem is that for the past 4 years he has allowed himself to lie and exaggerate about the most mundane things, crowd numbers, the financial indices, votes, he does it automatically, as a reflex, all numbers have to be bigger, anything he does is better. So that when he says something that could well be true everyone assumes it is another lie. Especially when it is introduced as an 'oh look, a squirrel' distraction.

If what he is saying about the WHO is true, then it needs to be taken seriously. But that ship has sailed, its far too late for him to expect anything he says to be given any credence.

El_Duderino 09

looksee wrote: »

Maybe he was right about the WHO, maybe he wasn't. His problem is that for the past 4 years he has allowed himself to lie and exaggerate about the most mundane things, crowd numbers, the financial indices, votes, he does it automatically, as a reflex, all numbers have to be bigger, anything he does is better. So that when he says something that could well be true everyone assumes it is another lie. Especially when it is introduced as an 'oh look, a squirrel' distraction.

If what he is saying about the WHO is true, then it needs to be taken seriously. But that ship has sailed, its far too late for him to expect anything he says to be given any credence.

What exactly is the accusation against the WHO?

Ipso

looksee wrote: »

Maybe he was right about the WHO, maybe he wasn't. His problem is that for the past 4 years he has allowed himself to lie and exaggerate about the most mundane things, crowd numbers, the financial indices, votes, he does it automatically, as a reflex, all numbers have to be bigger, anything he does is better. So that when he says something that could well be true everyone assumes it is another lie. Especially when it is introduced as an 'oh look, a squirrel' distraction.

If what he is saying about the WHO is true, then it needs to be taken seriously. But that ship has sailed, its far too late for him to expect anything he says to be given any credence.

Yeah. When he talks about anything, Inassume he’s either ignorant or dishonest.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Might be useful for reference, if they did the same for other US presidential candidates, or prominent US politicians.

The New York Times did do a Trump v Obama comparison about lying...

We applied the same conservative standard to Obama and Trump, counting only demonstrably and substantially false statements. The result: Trump is unlike any other modern president. He seems virtually indifferent to reality, often saying whatever helps him make the case he’s trying to make.

In his first 10 months in office, he has told 103 separate untruths, many of them repeatedly. Obama told 18 over his entire eight-year tenure. That’s an average of about two a year for Obama and about 124 a year for Trump.

https://thenewstalkers.com/community/discussion/36880/trumps-lies-vs-obamas

They tried to do an analysis of Bush too, but

As we mentioned above, it was not possible to create a similar list for George W. Bush, because the various fact-checking groups – whose work we used heavily here – were not operating continuously when he became president, in 2001.

SeanW

Ipso wrote: »

Well if he doesn’t like the WHO he doesn’t have much of a domestic equivalent as he defunded them. Read the man’s tweets from around mid January onwards. He’s full of it. He needs to shut up and stay off twitte.

The United States has the CDC, or Center for Disease Control. Frankly, I'd trust the CDC (even though it's only a national institution) more than the WHO. If the Americans are smart, they'll make sure the CDC has whatever it needs. I'm not interested in defending Trump's tweets, but (contrary to what some in the mainstream media are saying) he isn't the root cause of Americas or the worlds problems with the Coronavirus. Or much else for that matter.

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup, they lied, but let's be a little bit more honest and admit that the amount of time lost wasn't that much, considering how long western governments especially the US dismissed the threat of the virus. Had the CCP been upfront about what they knew, likely it would have been dismissed as an Asian problem, and nothing would have changed... The manner in which western governments responded when the threat was known, is proof of that.

It was not just Western governments that were slow to react, this virus spread throughout the entire world. That's just the nature of pandemics - unless you perfectly seal off areas, a pandemic will go global eventually. But a little bit more warning from the CCP and the WHO might have helped other national governments figure out what was going on, but without perfect lockdowns starting in (maybe) December 2019, a global outbreak would have happened anyway.

Heck, even if the CCP wouldn't warn of the danger, the Taiwanese were screaming "this is REALLY BAD" in January. The first people not to listen? The WHO.

I'm amazed by how much posters are focusing on the Chinese. Where were the US intelligence agencies while this was all happening? They keep China under observation all the time, and the US didn't identify and warn their allies of a virus threat within China...

Indeed, that's a good question.

I left China on the 21st of January, and the existence of the virus was known. The only check I received was in China when leaving. In Istanbul or Dublin, I wasn't checked, nor was I asked a single question about where I was coming from. Nor did I receive any messages after I had arrived in Ireland. None. No request for me to get checked out or anything. I did it myself.

Fair dues to you for that.

There is too much shifting of blame going on here. We want Chinese support to deal with the virus because they still have a massive industrial and economic base to produce vaccines once it has been created. Blaming China for what happened is counter-productive, unless you're simply looking for someone to blame, when we find out that western nations are ill-prepared to actually manufacture and distribute a vaccine.

Another good question, how did we lose the "industrial and economic base" to respond to crises like this?

So, the problem is that the WHO played politics with China as opposed to continuing to play politics with western nations especially the US?

They should have been objective. They knew that the virus posed extreme danger in January. They should have warned the world of the danger. They failed, and that's inexcusable.

Maybe... but then, calling it a China virus is insulting and is quite inaccurate. There have been numerous viruses and diseases which came out of various countries without those countries being directly named for them. Should we be renaming AIDS, or Ebola to reflect it's origin? what kind of message does that send?

Ebola was named after the Ebola River in the Congo. We also have (among others):

• The German measles.
• Lyme disease (named after Lyme, Connecticut where it was first discovered)
• MERS. Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome. (No prizes for guessing where that was first discovered)
• West Nile Virus.

Controversially, there is also the 1918 "Spanish flu" which didn't actually start there but got that name due to the complexities of World War I.

While I agree that the WHO needs to be investigated, it is needed to be in operation right now. We have a global epidemic, and it is foolish to remove an organisation that was created to deal with such things. It is the administrators of the WHO who should be investigated, and the doctors/scientists allowed to continue their research into Covid.

They've already failed us. We in the West would be much better served beefing up the US CDC and the European Centre for Disease Control (ECDC), enhancing co-operating between the two and then sharing their research and data with the national health authorities of poorer countries.

We should start funding the WHO again when we can trust them.

saabsaab

Like a stopped clock Trump isn't always wrong.

kowloon

nthclare wrote: »

Anything I have at home that's made in America before they shipped a lot of their factories to China, is top quantity.

The home of modern quality control, at least until the Japanese improved on them.

If Trump could persuade the the factories to come back and bring back car manufacturers too and open up the steel industries etc

They have to erode workers' rights, health and safety regs, unions and wages before they can compete with countries with a lower standard of living. They're working on it, but you can't move too fast or the have-nots will go back to the old ways and drag their feudal lords onto the street and beat them to death.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Trump aside as somebody who has a lost an elderly family member to Covid I will never forgive the Chinese for what they unleashed. The disgusting sanitary practices of those in wet markets led to this.

They have brought the entire world to its knees.


My family will never forget this. It's been a horrible 3 weeks. No funeral, no nothing

SeanW

SeanW wrote: »

It was not just Western governments that were slow to react, this virus spread throughout the entire world. That's just the nature of pandemics - unless you perfectly seal off areas, a pandemic will go global eventually. But a little bit more warning from the CCP and the WHO might have helped other national governments figure out what was going on, but without perfect lockdowns starting in (maybe) December 2019, a global outbreak would have happened anyway.

In the history of pandemics, there has been no completely successful sealing off of a country. It's a lovely idea, but incredibly impractical.

Western governments had plenty of time before Italy blew up to react and put in place their own measures to limit the risk of the virus spreading. What did they do? They talked. That's it. And had they more time, they would have simply talked some more, because western politicians care more about losing votes than reacting before they feel the need to.

Heck, even if the CCP wouldn't warn of the danger, the Taiwanese were screaming "this is REALLY BAD" in January. The first people not to listen? The WHO.

I was getting messages from Chinese, Japanese, Korean friends asking whether I was still in China, and if I was leaving towards the middle of January. The news was out there.

And I'd suggest that the first not to listen were the US, since Taiwan would have sent their notices to them first before going to the WHO as part of intelligence services. The WHO being second on this list.. although I would say that the US would have known about the virus before Taiwan did.

Fair dues to you for that.

Sure, but the point remains. There was no checking or followup on travelers leaving China by the Irish government. None. I've checked with other Irish friends who left China after I did.. none of them received any attention by the government, nor did they notice any extra security in the airports, until after Italy got hit.

This focus on China as the guilty party is a complete cop out, seeking to cover up the ineptitude/negligence of western nations in how they reacted..

Another good question, how did we lose the "industrial and economic base" to respond to crises like this?

We haven't had one since the WW2. Simple as that. WW2 essentially destroyed Europe's manufacturing power, and it was replaced by goods produced by the US.. Such a base is too expensive to maintain, since you need a manufacturing base, and the West has embraced services due to their high profit margins. It works with the higher costs associated with a first world labor force. A manufacturing base needs low cost workers, otherwise it can't compete within a global market (which is why Germany imported so many Turks but that caused other problems... whereas the US already has their Mexicans and those from S.America). Add to that, Europe has embraced welfare states which are incredibly expensive to maintain, and services remain the only way to provide enough of an income to allow them to exist. Even the US doesn't have a welfare system like Europe, because it has maintained an element of it's manufacturing base...

They should have been objective. They knew that the virus posed extreme danger in January. They should have warned the world of the danger. They failed, and that's inexcusable.

They were corrupted by politics. I'd point fingers in the direction of the US since they tend to bully organisations that they provide funding to. Previous WHO administrations were decidedly pro-western, whereas this one went with China.

But I agree with you. They had a higher purpose and should have been above politics. Still, no organisation remains untouched by corruption, and political maneuvers. Over time, every organisation will fall.

Ebola was named after the Ebola River in the Congo. We also have (among others):

• The German measles.
• Lyme disease (named after Lyme, Connecticut where it was first discovered)
• MERS. Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome. (No prizes for guessing where that was first discovered)
• West Nile Virus.

Yes, but they weren't named after individual nations. That has a completely different emphasis.

They've already failed us. We in the West would be much better served beefing up the US CDC and the European Centre for Disease Control (ECDC), enhancing co-operating between the two and then sharing their research and data with the national health authorities of poorer countries.

We should start funding the WHO again when we can trust them.

We should be moving away from the US, and increasing the funding of the ECDC. The US is no more trustworthy than China, and far more unstable. Cooperation with other organisations, sure, but no financing or anything that allows obligations to form.

Chris_Heilong

Trump is not a nice guy and sometimes says stupid things but he is usually right and I can see why so many Americans vote for him and why he will get another term. It is good when he calls out idiots, especially the partisan media who seem to care more for their ideology than what is best for their country, If you Trump says left they will say Right just to spite him, when you have a propaganda machine as strong as it is, it is easy to see why so many outside of the US dislike him. They are hearing from very partisan source where anything and everything done by the opposition is wrong, I am sure the likes of FOX news did something like this towards Obama when he was in power but not to the extent we see it today. It is surprising how easy it is to pull the wool over so many peoples eyes. Political Correctness is a weakness we in the west need to overcome because all it does is oppress people and encourage dishonesty. China needs to be called out but many have monetary interests there so do not want to rock the boat.

Canis Lupus

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Trump is not a nice guy and sometimes says stupid things but he is usually right and I can see why so many Americans vote for him and why he will get another term. It is good when he calls out idiots, especially the partisan media who seem to care more for their ideology than what is best for their country, If you Trump says left they will say Right just to spite him, when you have a propaganda machine as strong as it is, it is easy to see why so many outside of the US dislike him. They are hearing from very partisan source where anything and everything done by the opposition is wrong, I am sure the likes of FOX news did something like this towards Obama when he was in power but not to the extent we see it today. It is surprising how easy it is to pull the wool over so many peoples eyes. Political Correctness is a weakness we in the west need to overcome because all it does is oppress people and encourage dishonesty. China needs to be called out but many have monetary interests there so do not want to rock the boat.

Sometimes says stupid things? You've a president of the US sitting on his smartphone tweeting ****e like 'liberate Minnesota' etc etc. Could you imagine our taoiseach or president doing similar? Would you/could you respect the political head of your country acting like a dumb teenager on twitter!

EDIT: Any self respecting American should be mortified by him.

Huntergonzo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Trump aside as somebody who has a lost an elderly family member to Covid I will never forgive the Chinese for what they unleashed. The disgusting sanitary practices of those in wet markets led to this.

They have brought the entire world to its knees.


My family will never forget this. It's been a horrible 3 weeks. No funeral, no nothing

Sorry to hear you've lost a family member DEFT, that's never easy under any circumstances but it's especially though at the minute with no wakes and small or no funerals.

I absolutely understand your anger, but I'd just say to try to honour and remember the person who's passed as best you can and let go of the resentment bit by bit because it will only makes things harder to deal with in the long run.

Stateofyou

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Trump is not a nice guy and sometimes says stupid things but he is usually right and I can see why so many Americans vote for him and why he will get another term. It is good when he calls out idiots, especially the partisan media who seem to care more for their ideology than what is best for their country, If you Trump says left they will say Right just to spite him, when you have a propaganda machine as strong as it is, it is easy to see why so many outside of the US dislike him. They are hearing from very partisan source where anything and everything done by the opposition is wrong, I am sure the likes of FOX news did something like this towards Obama when he was in power but not to the extent we see it today. It is surprising how easy it is to pull the wool over so many peoples eyes. Political Correctness is a weakness we in the west need to overcome because all it does is oppress people and encourage dishonesty. China needs to be called out but many have monetary interests there so do not want to rock the boat.

Try ALWAYS says stupid things, dangerous and racist things, selfish and non-statesman like things... I could go on. What on earth is he "usually" right about? I'm pretty sure (thanks to fact checkers) he's proven to be usually wrong. He doesn't call out reporters for their ideology, he calls them out for nailing his ar*e to the wall with hard questions that he doesn't like. He also doesn't like intelligent, women (especially non white) challenging him. Just look at the names he calls them and the tone he takes. He's challenged with questions that point out or hold him accountable for his failures or the stupid things he (or his family say). Kushner saying "our" stockpile, anyone? And Trump isn't exactly the authority for what is best for their country either. He's shown over and over again that he's in it for himself and his businesses and his family's/friends businesses, and for his rich cronies who support him and donate, and for whatever other deals he's made.

Complaining about political correctness is usually because some associate being PC with being unable to act and behave as they please.
The idea of freedom of speech gives a person the right to say what they feel, but it also gives other people the right to point out if they're wrong or are being offensive. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from criticism or consequences.

nthclare

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Sometimes says stupid things? You've a president of the US sitting on his smartphone tweeting ****e like 'liberate Minnesota' etc etc. Could you imagine our taoiseach or president doing similar? Would you/could you respect the political head of your country acting like a dumb teenager on twitter!

EDIT: Any self respecting American should be mortified by him.

Well in fairness now, Leo made a few gaffes himself.
Our own leader isn't exactly the most savvy at times.

Capt'n Midnight

Nate White from a year ago The original was deleted copy here

Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?

A few things spring to mind.

Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem.

For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace – all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed.

So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief.

Plus, we like a laugh. And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing – not once, ever.

I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever. And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility – for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman.

But with Trump, it’s a fact. He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is – his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty.

Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers.

And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults – he actually thinks in them. His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness.

There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth. It’s all surface.

Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront.

Well, we don’t. We see it as having no inner world, no soul.

And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath. All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist.

Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog. He is the exact opposite of that.

He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat.

He’s more a fat white slug. A Jabba the Hutt of privilege.

And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully.

That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead.

There are unspoken rules to this stuff – the Queensberry rules of basic decency – and he breaks them all. He punches downwards – which a gentleman should, would, could never do – and every blow he aims is below the belt. He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless – and he kicks them when they are down.

So the fact that a significant minority – perhaps a third – of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think ‘Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that:
* Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are.
* You don’t need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man.

This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty bloody hard to miss.

After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of shít. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum.

God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid.

He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart.

In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws – he would make a Trump.

And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish:

‘My God… what… have… I… created?

If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set.”

JL555

Stateofyou wrote: »

Try ALWAYS says stupid things, dangerous and racist things, selfish and non-statesman like things... I could go on. What on earth is he "usually" right about? I'm pretty sure (thanks to fact checkers) he's proven to be usually wrong. He doesn't call out reporters for their ideology, he calls them out for nailing his ar*e to the wall with hard questions that he doesn't like. He also doesn't like intelligent, women (especially non white) challenging him. Just look at the names he calls them and the tone he takes. He's challenged with questions that point out or hold him accountable for his failures or the stupid things he (or his family say). Kushner saying "our" stockpile, anyone? And Trump isn't exactly the authority for what is best for their country either. He's shown over and over again that he's in it for himself and his businesses and his family's/friends businesses, and for his rich cronies who support him and donate, and for whatever other deals he's made.

Complaining about political correctness is usually because some associate being PC with being unable to act and behave as they please.
The idea of freedom of speech gives a person the right to say what they feel, but it also gives other people the right to point out if they're wrong or are being offensive. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from criticism or consequences.

So if he always says, amongst others you mention, racist things, name 10 racist things he's said. I'm just curious.