Universities/colleges

gauchesnell

Lockheed wrote: »

Romanticising the college experience is quite unfair for students who are forced to commute full time. I've never had this 'experience' and I still find college enjoyable. We're all in the same boat now.

Yeah I commuted myself through college - by that I mean bus or hitch hiked. Also worked part time and commuted. Only one bus a day and if you missed that you hitch hiked. Also slept on peoples floors and couches.

Still had the college campus experience which is important - not romantic in any way.

This was the 90s obvs with the hitch hiking.

gauchesnell

challengemaster wrote: »

I'd imagine it's a few reasons, some of which might be

1. Kids seem to be least at risk category for severe symptoms, comparatively mature students and many lecturers or support staff I'd imagine would fall into the high risk categories.

2. You're talking about orders of magnitude in terms of people. Class sizes for schools are probably around 25-30. In University you can have 400+ in a lecture hall.

Secondary schools might have 1,000 people on campus, universities might have 20,000 - 30,000 +.

Yes to the above - 6/7000 students in one building not including staff for us. School population tends to be local community aswell. Universities not so much - students and staff from everywhere.

Mjolnir

Put simply the smallest class in my degree is 30 add in students taking the same classes from different degrees at full capacity we're talking over 400.
Say we obey 2m we might be able to stagger the room to let's say 100. Now we need to run that 4 times in an already booked out lecture hall, add in that that class itself is already run twice a week for two different groups of 400 you're talking 16 classes for just one subject. It's not practical or even feasible really.

With regards the campus experience romanticism, my commute was a near 2 hour each way drive at varying hours and levels of traffic. You couldn't get me out of their quick enough and I was constantly exhausted with working nights too. I didn't want to be near campus if i didn't have to be. Change that to digs and I'd rather go training when I'm done than hang around in the su.
Everyone is different, some students want to party, live the "college" life. Others like myself are there to get a degree and start our careers.

You can't really compare the 90's to now, totally different eras in every aspect.

gauchesnell

Mjolnir wrote: »

Put simply the smallest class in my degree is 30 add in students taking the same classes from different degrees at full capacity we're talking over 400.
Say we obey 2m we might be able to stagger the room to let's say 100. Now we need to run that 4 times in an already booked out lecture hall, add in that that class itself is already run twice a week for two different groups of 400 you're talking 16 classes for just one subject. It's not practical or even feasible really.

With regards the campus experience romanticism, my commute was a near 2 hour each way drive at varying hours and levels of traffic. You couldn't get me out of their quick enough and I was constantly exhausted with working nights too. I didn't want to be near campus if i didn't have to be. Change that to digs and I'd rather go training when I'm done than hang around in the su.
Everyone is different, some students want to party, live the "college" life. Others like myself are there to get a degree and start our careers.

You can't really compare the 90's to now, totally different eras in every aspect.

apologies im staff now in university so what campus experience means to us is different - it means students being able to learn (self directed learning) use campus facilities if needed and progress into further study and/or career. A positive campus experience means retention of students. We want students to learn, engage and progress.

Nothing to do with hanging out in the SU. The SU in my university is a private company - 2 separate things.

The whole 1m or 2m rule will have a massive impact on classes - for where I work classes are being timetabled as we speak. Management are up the walls figuring out what to and how to accommodate everyone. As I posted before though even the option of all online classes will probably need to be available on all programmes as well as some in person classes.

Not all students will be able to return / in the event of an outbreak classes will need to continue i.e back up plan.

College is different to when I attended agree - not sure its better. Everyones experience is different - commuting didnt bother me except when I was stranded with no way home.

Mjolnir

gauchesnell wrote: »

apologies im staff now in university so what campus experience means to us is different - it means students being able to learn (self directed learning) use campus facilities if needed and progress into further study and/or career. A positive campus experience means retention of students. We want students to learn, engage and progress.

Nothing to do with hanging out in the SU. The SU in my university is a private company - 2 separate things.

The whole 1m or 2m rule will have a massive impact on classes - for where I work classes are being timetabled as we speak. Management are up the walls figuring out what to and how to accommodate everyone. As I posted before though even the option of all online classes will probably need to be available on all programmes as well as some in person classes.

Not all students will be able to return / in the event of an outbreak classes will need to continue i.e back up plan.

College is different to when I attended agree - not sure its better. Everyones experience is different - commuting didnt bother me except when I was stranded with no way home.

The numbers was aimed at a different poster I was feeling to lazy to press reply after scrolling ha.

Ah misunderstanding so, apologies. I wouldn't be mad about the su having a bar on campus but it gives jobs too.

I can imagine management are at the point of pulling out their hair, the obvious answer is plan for the worst case, hope for the best. That way we don't get caught on the hop again. Very far from ideal for all involved. Another issue for staff being in certain disciplines the lecturers have main jobs outside of teaching, thay would be a nightmare in itself.

The problem with retention will be students just leaving school now aren't used to being independent when it comes to their learning. I've seen it with my class mates some act like children ( fair they aren't far from it) when they aren't spoon fed the information and throw tantrums.

Charles Babbage

Vital Transformation wrote: »

Why are colleges shutting down so much compared to the schools?

Not only are schools returning earlier, it seems like they'll be taking far more of a "business as usual" approach. At least compared to colleges, where it looks like in person lectures are going to be either outright cancelled or the capacity reduced by 90%.

Because they are petri dish for disease, 20,000+ people from all parts of the world mixing in together, most of them from the age group which shows least respect for social distancing. A school only has a fraction of that number from one parish. Add to that the students are adults and more capable of independent study.

gauchesnell

Mjolnir wrote: »

The numbers was aimed at a different poster I was feeling to lazy to press reply after scrolling ha.

Ah misunderstanding so, apologies. I wouldn't be mad about the su having a bar on campus but it gives jobs too.

I can imagine management are at the point of pulling out their hair, the obvious answer is plan for the worst case, hope for the best. That way we don't get caught on the hop again. Very far from ideal for all involved. Another issue for staff being in certain disciplines the lecturers have main jobs outside of teaching, thay would be a nightmare in itself.

The problem with retention will be students just leaving school now aren't used to being independent when it comes to their learning. I've seen it with my class mates some act like children ( fair they aren't far from it) when they aren't spoon fed the information and throw tantrums.

well students take priority but there are a lot of issues when it comes to staff and teaching - some staff may not be able to return to campus even though ideally their teaching should be done on campus/staff commute from possibly wider distances. I know a few of my colleagues live 4 days Dublin and the remaining in London for example. As you mentioned lots of staff have other jobs as well as teaching etc

So many concerns really.

Incoming students especially LC students we think will be a challenge but I dont know if LC/new students are aware of the situation yet. Its a continuation of studying at home for many - and they wont have done the LC now aswell. As you say no independence.

Thing is we some cases back in March before the lockdown. It shuts campus buildings for a while and could shut all campuses depending on contact tracing.

the worse sceanario is all teaching continues online and campuses reman shut.

gauchesnell

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Because they are petri dish for disease, 20,000+ people from all parts of the world mixing in together, most of them from the age group which shows least respect for social distancing. A school only has a fraction of that number from one parish. Add to that the students are adults and more capable of independent study.

correct we actually had another highly contagious disease at my university before lockdown - infectious diseases on campus are common - this one was unusual though

challengemaster

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Because they are petri dish for disease, 20,000+ people from all parts of the world mixing in together, most of them from the age group which shows least respect for social distancing.

Just to add to this in a way probably most people wouldn't expect.

The hygiene standards of some people in Universities / Colleges can be truly appalling. I've worked in a research building where almost everyone was educated to doctoral level or enrolled in a doctoral degree. In that very same building, signs had to be put up in the bathrooms and emails sent around telling people that it is not okay to shít all over the toilet seat and floor and walk away afterwards, leaving it for other people or cleaning staff to deal with.

Trusting people to be responsible about washing their hands really isn't a given.

Charles Babbage

gauchesnell wrote: »

correct we actually had another highly contagious disease at my university before lockdown - infectious diseases on campus are common - this one was unusual though

Often these diseases are confined to those involved in certain activities, which can be avoided, or are confined to the offspring of anti-vaxers.

mikhail

Vital Transformation wrote: »

Why are colleges shutting down so much compared to the schools?

Not only are schools returning earlier, it seems like they'll be taking far more of a "business as usual" approach. At least compared to colleges, where it looks like in person lectures are going to be either outright cancelled or the capacity reduced by 90%.

Universities seem to be better able to operate remotely, with students mature enough not to require constant supervision. Letting schools resume frees up parents to return to work too. University students mix much more between classes too - often taking modules with entirely different groups around the university during the day (e.g. engineering students taking maths, physics, programming classes in different departments), whereas schoolkids are either in a single class, or have limited mixing within a year at second level.

mikhail

challengemaster wrote: »

Just to add to this in a way probably most people wouldn't expect.

The hygiene standards of some people in Universities / Colleges can be truly appalling. I've worked in a research building where almost everyone was educated to doctoral level or enrolled in a doctoral degree. In that very same building, signs had to be put up in the bathrooms and emails sent around telling people that it is not okay to shít all over the toilet seat and floor and walk away afterwards, leaving it for other people or cleaning staff to deal with.

Trusting people to be responsible about washing their hands really isn't a given.

Oh, many an office has had a phantom pooper. That's seems to be a failure mode of humanity, not just university students.

gauchesnell

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Often these diseases are confined to those involved in certain activities, which can be avoided, or are confined to the offspring of anti-vaxers.

true measles can be vaccinated against I think...gnorrhoea not so much.

the contagious disease outbreak we had before lockdown I had never come across before though.

Many bathrooms in my workplace have had to be locked due to phantom poopers.

So yeah universities/colleges are like multinationals towns with phantom poopers and contagious diseases.

mc25

challengemaster wrote: »

Just to add to this in a way probably most people wouldn't expect.

The hygiene standards of some people in Universities / Colleges can be truly appalling. I've worked in a research building where almost everyone was educated to doctoral level or enrolled in a doctoral degree. In that very same building, signs had to be put up in the bathrooms and emails sent around telling people that it is not okay to shít all over the toilet seat and floor and walk away afterwards, leaving it for other people or cleaning staff to deal with.

Trusting people to be responsible about washing their hands really isn't a given.

I had the same signs in my building!

And frequent emails from the health department about outbreaks of mumps, so yeah people can't be trusted with proper hygiene 100% of the time

Mjolnir

We've had an unofficial well there'll be blended learning email. The aul tutorials and labs will take place I.e I ain't driving 2 hours to sit in a 1 hour tutorial sound lads a year without travel so. Well I hope.

On the point of mixing, theres a lot of degrees mix in class subjects, plus you actually have to go out of your way not to walk in to the mindless crowds on my campus. They will literally stand blocking main doors to buildings. I'm not being mean but the lack of common sense and manners in school leavers now is insanely low, I personally wouldn't trust them to obey any form of distancing if we were all on campus at staggered times.

gauchesnell

well Id say crowds will be gone for while. Groups always do seem to gather at entrances etc.

Logistics like that will have to be worked out by colleges and will be the responsibility of colleges to enforce. Questions like that have already been raised by staff in my workplace..i.e. one way corridors and enforcement and all that.

No mindless crowds hopefully for a while. Blended learning congrats.

Smegging hell

Several universities in the US revert to online teaching as outbreaks take place: https://www.newstalk.com/news/covid-19-us-colleges-luke-oneill-1066961

gauchesnell

Waterford seems to be the first fully online

https://waterford-news.ie/2020/08/27/wit-goes-off-campus-for-coming-academic-year/#.X0hLnshKjIU

This may be the same as my university - students on campus maybe one day every 3 weeks.

SleetAndSnow

Have been told by UCC I'll be in college maximum 2hrs a week with everything else online. They are working out tutorials and that may give an extra 30 mins a week or so but they will most likely be online also.

theballz

My partner is due to return for her final semester in university next month in Dublin (university shall not be named.)

The university did release guidelines but they are beyond fluffy. The guidelines do not provide any sort of indication as to how students will remain socially distant within the classroom, the rooms are tiny with little or no ventilation. The guidelines basically explain one way systems, hand santization and how the canteen will work.

As this is adult education, the average age in the class is mid-late 40's (at a guess.) The university are not willing to enter any sort of discussion with her when she flagged this concern.

She simply asked "what are you doing to ensure student remain socially distant in class?" and they revert to a book of guidelines that doesn't explain it. It is simply not safe, we have family who are cocooning and I am shocked at the lack of transparency around this.

Is anyone else having similar issues?

byhookorbycrook

theballz wrote: »

My partner is due to return for her final semester in university next month in Dublin (university shall not be named.)

The university did release guidelines but they are beyond fluffy. The guidelines do not provide any sort of indication as to how students will remain socially distant within the classroom, the rooms are tiny with little or no ventilation. The guidelines basically explain one way systems, hand santization and how the canteen will work.

As this is adult education, the average age in the class is mid-late 40's (at a guess.) The university are not willing to enter any sort of discussion with her when she flagged this concern.

She simply asked "what are you doing to ensure student remain socially distant in class?" and they revert to a book of guidelines that doesn't explain it. It is simply not safe, we have family who are cocooning and I am shocked at the lack of transparency around this.

Is anyone else having similar issues?

Govt are on record as sayings schools and colleges must stay open “ at all costs .” This is one of those “ costs .”

Smegging hell

I agree with you theballz and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a volte-face on face to face teaching as cases appear on campuses. The government's plan to keep higher and adult education open even in a stage five scenario is utterly bonkers - thousands of students commuting from around the country into colleges even in the 'worst-case' situation in which everyone bar essential workers works from home. I teach a number of classes in an MA course and am relieved it will be moving online, but it seems to be an outlier in my university.

Beasty

Threads merged

peckerhead

My hunch is that the colleges will continue to remain vague about arrangements because they still don't know –

(a) how they will cope with the restrictions governing on-campus presence. There's bedlam every year with timetables and room allocations even without the current problems.

(b) how they will cope with the loss of fee income from international students, They're going to have to slash part-time staff costs, research funds, anything not immediately essential to the continued short-term functioning of the institution.

Theyre under the cosh but they'll continue to sing from the "everything under control here" hymnsheet until students have taken up their places and enrolled, so that capitation fees are locked in. Then in a few weeks' time, there'll be an outbreak, one campus will shut down again and go full online, and the others will follow suit. Their "hands will be tied"....

As someone said, it's gonna be an interesting year - for lecturing staff as well as students.

gauchesnell

christ what nonsense. Timetables have already been released - well for my university they have and Im staff. International students are down but still arriving cos they have to as most programmes are not 100% online.

Some programmes are already fully online and that doesnt impact on fees. Again it varies per college but ours are nearly all online except for those required to be on campus.

gauchesnell

As to the original question it doesnt state how many of her classes are on campus. Classes are also being split into smaller groups when rooms are smaller - again just speaking for my own college.

Also its not clear if your partner is concerned about going back or cant go back - not all students can remember that. Maybe find out what are the backup plans for students who cant go back

theballz wrote: »

My partner is due to return for her final semester in university next month in Dublin (university shall not be named.)

The university did release guidelines but they are beyond fluffy. The guidelines do not provide any sort of indication as to how students will remain socially distant within the classroom, the rooms are tiny with little or no ventilation. The guidelines basically explain one way systems, hand santization and how the canteen will work.

As this is adult education, the average age in the class is mid-late 40's (at a guess.) The university are not willing to enter any sort of discussion with her when she flagged this concern.

She simply asked "what are you doing to ensure student remain socially distant in class?" and they revert to a book of guidelines that doesn't explain it. It is simply not safe, we have family who are cocooning and I am shocked at the lack of transparency around this.

Is anyone else having similar issues?

peckerhead

In my case, the vast majority of teaching took place on-campus before the lockdown (and suffered from the logistical issues I mention. There are class groups of 250/300 students involved). We're due to resume classes on Sept. 28th and there's still no timetable, bar the rotational on/off-campus schedules for the various programmes.

Obviously if courses were mostly online to begin with, that's a different matter. But the bulk of undergraduate students were attending college the old-fashioned way, and their experience is going to be hugely altered.

gauchesnell

my god

are you saying the bulk of UG students will be on campus

peckerhead wrote: »

In my case, the vast majority of teaching took place on-campus before the lockdown (and suffered from the logistical issues I mention. There are class groups of 250/300 students involved). We're due to resume classes on Sept. 28th and there's still no timetable, bar the rotational on/off-campus schedules for the various programmes.

Obviously if courses were mostly online to begin with, that's a different matter. But the bulk of undergraduate students were attending college the old-fashioned way, and their experience is going to be hugely altered.

peckerhead

gauchesnell wrote: »

my god

are you saying the bulk of UG students will be on campus

No.

theballz

gauchesnell wrote: »

As to the original question it doesnt state how many of her classes are on campus. Classes are also being split into smaller groups when rooms are smaller - again just speaking for my own college.

Also its not clear if your partner is concerned about going back or cant go back - not all students can remember that. Maybe find out what are the backup plans for students who cant go back

Thank you for your feedback.

The text in Bold is exactly the issue. The Univsersity is not providing any of this information despite a number of students asking the question, it's either because they have not defined the plan (never mind a backup) or they simply don't know - either way, some clarity would be welcomed.

The frustration is they are unwilling to share by any means.