Universities/colleges

Benimar

Gradius wrote: »

Universities and colleges everywhere are going to face a really difficult value proposition.

All those potential fees for a better structured series of glorified youtube videos? A few guidelines and exams?

Yeah, big questions incoming sooner or later, fair or not.

Also, no, they should not be opening. Catch 22 and good luck

I’d like to think that my Third Level Institute is aiming a bit higher than that!

FWIW, I believe 3rd level should be online for now. Moving students around the country, and the inevitable socialising during the week is a recipe for disaster.

Done right, online education can work.

Gradius

Benimar wrote: »

I’d like to think that my Third Level Institute is aiming a bit higher than that!

FWIW, I believe 3rd level should be online for now. Moving students around the country, and the inevitable socialising during the week is a recipe for disaster.

Done right, online education can work.

MIT have had quite an extensive range of online courses for many years now.

Add in the examination and qualification and now you've got an online education. It's just adding a bit more sauce.

There's something very watered down about the whole idea and I say it devalues education. Right or wrong.

It's going to put a spotlight on the monetary value of education one way or another. Just look at the leaving cert now (in non-monetary terms) there will always be heavy doubts around whether a person deserved what they got and it'll forever be known as the "free leaving cert".

titan18

Ll31 wrote: »

If it's entirely online how can colleges justify not reducing fees- quality of learning experience is definitely reduced, access to libraries etc reduced, tutorials poorer in terms of discussions etc. College experience itself non existent.

I genuinely feel sorry for current 3rd level students-think they are losing out hugely.

Tbf, they still have to pay lecturers the same amount, still keep the college maintained and library open if labs/practicals are still happening.

The only thing where money being saved is on societies and on general bills like electricity. Colleges also likely have less income with college bars/shops/restaurants being closed

Geuze

Ll31 wrote: »

If it's entirely online how can colleges justify not reducing fees- quality of learning experience is definitely reduced, access to libraries etc reduced, tutorials poorer in terms of discussions etc. College experience itself non existent.

I don't think colleges have total control over undergrad fees?

The Govt set the 3k student contribution fee.

The balance is paid by the taxpayer.

If a uni doubled its fees, then the State would have to pay more to the uni.

So I suspect any changes to undergrad fees must be approved by the HEA?

Ll31

"I don't think colleges have total control over undergrad fees?

The Govt set the 3k student contribution fee.

The balance is paid by the taxpayer.

If a uni doubled its fees, then the State would have to pay more to the uni.

So I suspect any changes to undergrad fees must be approved by the HEA?"


I dont know to be honest but I do think that charging the same this year as last year for a service which is completely poorer in quality is not right- and it's not as if there is any real option for students to go anywhere else for that service... I know it's a crap situation all round with no obvious easy answers

mikhail

Ll31 wrote: »

I dont know to be honest but I do think that charging the same this year as last year for a service which is completely poorer in quality is not right- and it's not as if there is any real option for students to go anywhere else for that service... I know it's a crap situation all round with no obvious easy answers

I certainly take your point, but in that case, the government would likely be obliged to bail them all out. They're already suffering to varying degrees from the reduction in income from overseas students this year.

flasher0030

I’m not sure where to post this, or if anyone can help.
But wife works in one of the private colleges in Dublin. I was under the impression that all colleges were working off an online/zoom model.
But she got an email today from the Dean, advising that lecturers had to attend classes in person in many cases, and that the college was adhering to all rules/advice issued by the Government and their health advisory crew.

She’s up in a heap as she also looks after her elderly Dad at the weekends, and also if herself or myself did get Covid, we do not have anyone in Dublin to look after the kids. I know this might seem relatively self-centered to a certain extent, but it’s still something that we would have to deal with.
The advice as I understand was to work remotely/from home if at all possible. And it is possible.

Does anyone know if she has any options. She has e-mailed a few of those in authority there, but got nowhere – just basically referring to the Deans remarks.
For me, it seems like a foolish stance by the College, considering that they have been operating on an online/zoom etc. basis since April, and surely they are exposing themselves from a legal point of view if someone did get the virus.

Anyway, any advice is welcome. does she have to go into the building?

SouthernBelle

Geuze wrote: »

I don't think colleges have total control over undergrad fees?

The Govt set the 3k student contribution fee.

The balance is paid by the taxpayer.

If a uni doubled its fees, then the State would have to pay more to the uni.

So I suspect any changes to undergrad fees must be approved by the HEA?

Correct.

starstothesun

what are peoples opinions of college/university lectures being delivered on Campus in September 2021, can you see students being brought in to campus or will they continue to be delivered online.. what are peoples opinions/perseptions on this please?! I know we cant predict the future but just peoples opinion on how long they think students will be off campus

starstothesun

starstothesun wrote: »

what are peoples opinions of college/university lectures being delivered on Campus in September 2021, can you see students being brought in to campus or will they continue to be delivered online.. what are peoples opinions/perseptions on this please?! I know we cant predict the future but just peoples opinion on how long they think students will be off campus

There's a good chance on campus will be back to normal or very close to normal. The uncertainty revolves around the virus mutating beyond the capabilities of the current vaccines.

Mjolnir

starstothesun wrote: »

what are peoples opinions of college/university lectures being delivered on Campus in September 2021, can you see students being brought in to campus or will they continue to be delivered online.. what are peoples opinions/perseptions on this please?! I know we cant predict the future but just peoples opinion on how long they think students will be off campus

It will depend on restrictions, maybe a lot will be back by the start of the next college year cone aug/Sept but unlikely to see a huge return this semester.

LuasSimon

A blended Online-On Campus college is going to be the future for Universities. Attend college one or two days a week for practicals/Lab work etc and do three/four days online.
There will no need for a third of the student accommodation round colleges , should free up a lot of houses for those seeking to get on property ladder and reduce costs for Students and their family's.

VG31

LuasSimon wrote: »

A blended Online-On Campus college is going to be the future for Universities. Attend college one or two days a week for practicals/Lab work etc and do three/four days online.
There will no need for a third of the student accommodation round colleges , should free up a lot of houses for those seeking to get on property ladder and reduce costs for Students and their family's.

I think you're looking at college as if it were a job. You're completely ignoring the whole socialisation aspect/college experience, which is the main reason most people go to college (apart from getting the qualification itself). I found a lot of lectures to be a waste of time in general, but I still went in most of the time because it was much more enjoyable to work together and socialise rather than sitting at home by myself.

Mjolnir

LuasSimon wrote: »

A blended Online-On Campus college is going to be the future for Universities. Attend college one or two days a week for practicals/Lab work etc and do three/four days online.
There will no need for a third of the student accommodation round colleges , should free up a lot of houses for those seeking to get on property ladder and reduce costs for Students and their family's.

It really isn't, its not an ideal situation for colleges or students, distance and blended learning colleges and courses already exist and haven't taken over from the traditional delivery methods.

For the foreseeable its a means to an end but it will not replace the traditional in person teaching methods pertinently, I'm assuming you're not in college? I say this as they are desperate to have us back on campus to the point we recieve updates that we'll return as soon as possible with other colleges giving the same info.

Lundstram

LuasSimon wrote: »

A blended Online-On Campus college is going to be the future for Universities. Attend college one or two days a week for practicals/Lab work etc and do three/four days online.
There will no need for a third of the student accommodation round colleges , should free up a lot of houses for those seeking to get on property ladder and reduce costs for Students and their family's.

Do you think colleges are funded on fresh air? Majority of their income comes from on-campus services. Bars, food, coffees, library etc.

Students are desperate to get back on campus and they're not going to pay €3000 a year for a glorified online course.

Not to mention the social development side of things which is probably the most important aspect of college life.

gctest50

Lundstram wrote: »

Do you think colleges are funded on fresh air? Majority of their income comes from on-campus services. Bars, food, coffees, library etc.

.........

And the total public funding per student of € 5000+

Explains all the non stemi stuff through interpretative dance i suppose

IF (highly unlikely) universities and the like went online or largely online for an extended period it would be the end of bricks and mortar universities. The amount of academic staff would fall off a cliff.

Donald Trump

Lundstram wrote: »

Do you think colleges are funded on fresh air? Majority of their income comes from on-campus services. Bars, food, coffees, library etc.

What are you on about FFS?


What kind of college did you go to?

Mjolnir

[Deleted User] wrote: »

IF (highly unlikely) universities and the like went online or largely online for an extended period it would be the end of bricks and mortar universities. The amount of academic staff would fall off a cliff.

If anyone thinks campuses like ucd are sustainable without a large population of students being present they are insane.

Also no colleges don't make money off the shops themselves just the rent paid by the shop to use the space.

Mjolnir

Donald Trump wrote: »

What are you on about FFS?


What kind of college did you go to?

An online one I'm guessing haha, how people think campuses will exist without the need for them is beyond me.

My course is just shy of €8k/9k a year can't remember which
Initially 40 students in first year, let's say at 8k is €320,000 now do that by every course offered and the actual cost of the course, you'll see where the money comes from.
Ucd has approx 32,000 students let's say every course cost €5k thats €160,000,000. I'd love to see on campus services that could even come within a 1000th of that in its contribution to the college.

Donald Trump

Mjolnir wrote: »

An online one I'm guessing haha, how people think campuses will exist without the need for them is beyond me.

My course is just shy of €8k/9k a year can't remember which
Initially 40 students in first year, let's say at 8k is €320,000 now do that by every course offered and the actual cost of the course, you'll see where the money comes from.
Ucd has approx 32,000 students let's say every course cost €5k thats €160,000,000. I'd love to see on campus services that could even come within a 1000th of that in its contribution to the college.

Don't forget the capitation grant/subsidy from the government too. You need to look at the non-EU fees really to estimate the actual totals.



Most student services make little if any profit. Trinity used to have two on-campus bars. One was shut in the 2000's because it had the distinction of being the only pub in Dublin that hadn't made a profit in I don't know how many years.



The other one is a sports members bar and the profits from it are ringfenced for sports clubs.

In 2016-17 it made a profit of 143k - http://trinitynews.ie/2017/10/pavilion-bar-records-over-e143000-profit-in-201617/

In 2018-19 it made a loss of 50k http://trinitynews.ie/2019/09/tep-blamed-for-drop-in-pavilion-bar-revenue/

Mjolnir

Donald Trump wrote: »

Don't forget the capitation grant/subsidy from the government too. You need to look at the non-EU fees really to estimate the actual totals.



Most student services make little if any profit. Trinity used to have two on-campus bars. One was shut in the 2000's because it had the distinction of being the only pub in Dublin that hadn't made a profit in I don't know how many years.



The other one is a sports members bar and the profits from it are ringfenced for sports clubs.

In 2016-17 it made a profit of 143k - http://trinitynews.ie/2017/10/pavilion-bar-records-over-e143000-profit-in-201617/

In 2018-19 it made a loss of 50k http://trinitynews.ie/2019/09/tep-blamed-for-drop-in-pavilion-bar-revenue/

I genuinely never even thought about none EEA student fees.
We have an su bar but its "profit" goes back to the su to run events and such.
Exactly most services that aren't run by an outside entity are often lucky yo break even.

Donald Trump

Mjolnir wrote: »

I genuinely never even thought about none EEA student fees.
We have an su bar but its "profit" goes back to the su to run events and such.
Exactly most services that aren't run by an outside entity are often lucky yo break even.

Colleges do have other streams of income.


But, yeah, they definitely are not making a "majority of their income from on-campus services".

CrabRevolution

VG31 wrote: »

I think you're looking at college as if it were a job. You're completely ignoring the whole socialisation aspect/college experience, which is the main reason most people go to college (apart from getting the qualification itself). I found a lot of lectures to be a waste of time in general, but I still went in most of the time because it was much more enjoyable to work together and socialise rather than sitting at home by myself.

I've seen a few posts from people (presumably who either never went, or are long after college) from places outside of Dublin and Cork who seem positively delighted at the prospect of colleges staying nearly totally online. They reckon it's great that young people will be able to stay at home rather than move to college, and they're less likely to be get a job or meet others and be "tempted" to stay in the city.

newuser99999

LuasSimon wrote: »

A blended Online-On Campus college is going to be the future for Universities. Attend college one or two days a week for practicals/Lab work etc and do three/four days online.
There will no need for a third of the student accommodation round colleges , should free up a lot of houses for those seeking to get on property ladder and reduce costs for Students and their family's.

It’s not going to see house prices automatically dropping in these areas. Even if it was to go online for three to four days there will still be students moving up, students needing to be in one of the bigger cities for work placement etc.