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Wicklow fires and the burning of our uplands

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    #32
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    There is over 400,000 hectares of grazing commonage in the country, very hard to police an area that size.
    Is it the exact same ground that is burned each year, or do these lads have a rotational system going.

    The destruction to the environment is that bad so only hard measures will work, if there's a collective involved in setting the fires then maybe a suspension of all payments to upland sheep farmers for the summer period may be in order.


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    #33
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/DeptAHG/status/1251290439010996230

    Acres and acres of wildlife has been wiped out in recent days because of illegal fires started by farmers. This has been going on throughout the country, including Killarney national parks. These fires burn gorse and other habitat on our uplands so that sheep can graze there afterwards.
    With Dept AHG coming out with statements like



    the public... I thought it was only travellers who had this kind of anonymity and protection, farmers too it seems.

    Our uplands are mostly bare of trees because of this carry on, unless it's a sitka tree farm, determent to the environment. With the biodiversity crisis in Ireland right now, we should really be cracking down hard on this.
    Has anyone witnessed these fires?
    Maybe it was climate change :)


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    #34
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    Ken. wrote: »
    I'll bow to your superior knowledge. I know fück all about farm subsidies and stuff like that.
    It's the reason you can buy cheap food.


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    #35
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    0lddog wrote: »
    Some estimate that the CO2 emissions of burning one hectare is equivalent to the yearly average CO2 of 6000 cars

    It's more or less 0 net emissions though because it's just absorbed again the following year by the new growth. The other by products aren't great though.


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    #36
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Dakota Dan wrote: »
    It's the reason you can buy cheap food.

    Surprise surprise the farmer supports these fires being lit


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    #37
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?


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    #38
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

    €4.20


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    #39
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    TheChizler wrote: »
    It's more or less 0 net emissions though because it's just absorbed again the following year by the new growth. The other by products aren't great though.

    Kind of short on ambition on the carbon capture front there Chiz.

    Better to get animals to trample the vegetation and dung it.

    Lots of examples of this around the world :)


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    #40
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

    Who cares, they're setting national parks on fire, are they national parks or money making farms? We've feck all national parks as is and they let people burn them and make money out of them.


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    #41
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    €4.20

    Hmm, I think I'm ok with the wildfires in that case.


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    #42
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

    The industry is viable at the consumer price as it is.

    The problem is with the distorted distribution of that final price to the different sectors of the supply chain leading up to the final product.


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    #43
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    People are coming up with solutions but you need to watch the report on RTE.

    Anchorites do not wish to punish the people responsible for these fire. A request to refrain from starting fires is as far as it will ever go.

    Farmers lobby is ridiculously powerful.


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    #44
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Farmers lobby is ridiculously powerful.

    Not any more, MII, Meat Industry Ireland, are the ones who have the government ear


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    #45
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,417 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    People are coming up with solutions but you need to watch the report on RTE.

    Anchorites do not wish to punish the people responsible for these fire. A request to refrain from starting fires is as far as it will ever go.

    There is absolutely no point in watching reports on RTE for the truth about these burnings because they NEVER say who is lighting them or why.

    During more normal times, due to the lack of factual reporting I had assumed that most of these were accidental or arsonists/vandals. The real unreported truth is that it's farmers on the commonage setting these gorse fires to clear land.

    If be going so far to say that any land that gets burned without permit, it should be prohibited for sheep to graze on it for 50 years.. And the farmers that open the commonage should pay the full cost of the fire service costs.


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    #46
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    0lddog wrote: »
    Kind of short on ambition on the carbon capture front there Chiz.

    Better to get animals to trample the vegetation and dung it.

    Lots of examples of this around the world :)
    True but I didn't say there was no better way, its just not necessarily net CO2 release.


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    #47
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    If be going so far to say that any land that gets burned without permit, it should be prohibited for sheep to graze on it for 50 years.. And the farmers that open the commonage should pay the full cost of the fire service costs.

    You can't impose fines and restrictions on someone who is innocent until proven guilty.

    Clearly the Garda have been told not to investigate this, therefore there is no evidence. And no evidence for RTE to point the finger. Although I'm sure they have been told to avoid talking about the issue in the same way the Gardai have.

    One would wonder at what level of the government have the Garda been instructed to not uphold the law?


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    #48
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    Farmers don't give a sh*t about the environment, animals, wildlife etc. They only care about money. Gorse fires happen our way all the time. Nothing is ever done about it. They seem to think they are above the law. F*ckers. The only way to get the message home is hit them where it hurts - financially. They won't though. Farmers seem to be some kind of protected class - demanding free money from the EU, subsidies, minimum prices for their goods rather than become competitive. Whinge, whinge, whinge. It's never ending.


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    #49
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    Antares35 wrote: »
    They seem to think they are above the law.

    Is there anything to indicate this is an incorrect assumption?


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    #50
    EmptyTree
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭EmptyTree


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    How much extra would I have to pay for some mutton or lamb in order for that industry to be financially viable without these fires?

    The cost of the fire service and air corp along with the other departments responding to these fires comes out of general taxation, so we're all paying for the industry to be financially viable one way or the other.


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    #51
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    Do other emergency services not have the power to escalate this issue with the Garda?


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    #52
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    The lack of care for the environment with these (Sheep) farmers would make me turn vegan tomorrow if it meant they would stop burning uplands just to graze some stinking Sheep...


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    #53
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,417 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    You can't impose fines and restrictions on someone who is innocent until proven guilty.

    Clearly the Garda have been told not to investigate this, therefore there is no evidence. And no evidence for RTE to point the finger. Although I'm sure they have been told to avoid talking about the issue in the same way the Gardai have.

    One would wonder at what level of the government have the Garda been instructed to not uphold the law?

    I never said fine anyone, just to pay for the services used to put out the fire. If the fire brigade is called to my house to put out a fire, I'll get the bill no matter who called them.

    It's not as if these firebugs aren't known. You can bet your backside that the setters identities are common knowledge among those that use the commonage. If the thought that the commonage was going to be out of bounds until the ecosystem had recovered, you can bet your backside these fires would stop just from community pressure.


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    #54
    tabby aspreme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭tabby aspreme


    The government agriculture advisory body, known as Teagasc, run courses on how and when to burn hill land, it's a recognised management practice but should only be carried out from September to February.
    Minister Creed issued a statement regarding illegal burning on 3rd of this month, the Wicklow Uplands Council website is worth a read also regarding this issue.


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    #55
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    Is there anything to indicate this is an incorrect assumption?

    No.


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    #56
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Surprise surprise the farmer supports these fires being lit

    How exactly do you figure that out from a post explaining farm subsidies?


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    #57
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,303 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Dakota Dan wrote: »
    How exactly do you figure that out from a post explaining farm subsidies?

    I'm really smrt


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    #58
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,663 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    There is absolutely no point in watching reports on RTE for the truth about these burnings because they NEVER say who is lighting them or why.

    During more normal times, due to the lack of factual reporting I had assumed that most of these were accidental or arsonists/vandals. The real unreported truth is that it's farmers on the commonage setting these gorse fires to clear land.

    If be going so far to say that any land that gets burned without permit, it should be prohibited for sheep to graze on it for 50 years.. And the farmers that open the commonage should pay the full cost of the fire service costs.

    The whole smokers throwing cigarettes/BBQs for fires starting excuse has always been a red herring. Im familiar with some of these areas in Wicklow and an outsider would have no business being up there. For one you would have to cross over farmers private land to get to the uplands, you'd have to hop several gates, many of which have red and white signs on them telling you it is private land and they prosecute trespassers. The fire that was lit last week in Valleymount was on completely inaccessible land to the public and theres no way anyone would be going up there to have a BBQ and smoke a few cigarettes.

    The other point that the media dont mention in all of this is the sheer cost of putting these fires out. After the uplands in Valleymount were set on fire last week the army helicopter was sent out with a bucket to get water from the lake to put it out. I didnt count but would estimate he easily did at least 12 or 15 trips back and forth and was in the air for several hours. Just think of the cost of having a helicopter in the sky burning fuel like a good thing, two pilots, a winchman and then all the ground crew. It quickly adds up to tens of thousands of euros of taxpayers money sent down the swanny all because a farmer wanted more free land to graze his sheep on.


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    #59
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    What agenda is convincing all media sources to push a false narrative on this?


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    #60
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    What agenda is convincing all media sources to push a false narrative on this?
    The agenda that you have to be able to prove what you're claiming. It may be obvious to you, me, and the RTÉ reporter that farmers are setting the fires, but journalists are suppsoed to adhere to higher standards of proof.


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    #61
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    TheChizler wrote: »
    The agenda that you have to be able to prove what you're claiming. It may be obvious to you, me, and the RTÉ reporter that farmers are setting the fires, but journalists are suppsoed to adhere to higher standards of proof.


    Also at what level within the Garda is it decided that farmers will not be prosecuted for this and again what is the motivation for this?


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