Will the betting shops close permanently after this?

partyguinness

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's a huge waste of potential to let O'Connell Street and the area around it turn into a wilderness of fast food outlets, bookies and arcades.

That ship sailed decades ago.

Conall Cernach

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The new display cabinets having up to 15 varieties of scracth cards on sale are a disgrace, should be like cigarettes, tucked away, no bright colours and a giant warning on the front that your odds of winning are f*ck all .

The normal lottery and euromillions atleast are only twice a week although a system of capping how many entries you can do would be nice

I was in the shop today and there are two tills at the counter with one of these displays in between. I was standing at the first till waiting to be served for a few minutes before I noticed that the shop worker was standing at the next till and neither of us could see the other because if the display of scratch cards. The plastic covid screens didn't help much either.

loyatemu

tastyt wrote: »

They should definitely tax every bet made like they used to , a 5% tax would take a nice few quid in with absolutely no kick back from the public

I can’t understand why the government don’t do this

every bet is already taxed. AFAIK it mostly goes to Horse Racing Ireland (regardless of what the bet was on) who then use it to subsidise race price-money which is mostly won by millionaires.

CrankyHaus

partyguinness wrote: »

That ship sailed decades ago.

I think you've been out of the country too long, and didn't read my post fully.
There has been a renaissance of sorts; giving planning for more betting shops is inimical to it.

loyatemu wrote: »

every bet is already taxed. AFAIK it mostly goes to Horse Racing Ireland (regardless of what the bet was on) who then use it to subsidise race price-money which is mostly won by millionaires.

There was a thread on here a couple of months ago where the apologists for that set-up repeatedly referred to it as Horseracing's money.

PopePalpatine

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Should the North inner city be a dumping ground for undesirable businesses like that though?

It's a huge waste of potential to let O'Connell Street and the area around it turn into a wilderness of fast food outlets, bookies and arcades.

In some ways the North inner city has come on a lot: Capel Street and Parnell Street for example. This upward trajectory should be sustained.

Fair enough, I think my view of the north inner city has been jaundiced by years of commuting through there.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

.............. I asked him straight out if these games when you play the computer like Blackjack are rigged. While he didn't confirm it, let's just say he didn't deny it.

Why rig them when mathematically the house always win? With preferential shuffling etc card counting in real like is often more or less a waste of time and even without mitigation against card counting the house always maintains an edge.

loyatemu wrote: »

every bet is already taxed. AFAIK it mostly goes to Horse Racing Ireland (regardless of what the bet was on) who then use it to subsidise race price-money which is mostly won by millionaires.

Indeed, it was increased from 1% to 2% last year iirc and bookmakers continue to pay it rather than pass it on to the consumer but many offers were cut to compensate (treble odd on one winner in a L15 etc etc etc)

CrankyHaus

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Fair enough, I think my view of the north inner city has been jaundiced by years of commuting through there.

Ah yeah it's been a kip for years so no hard feelings, but it was definitely worse in the past. And I can see where you were coming from calling out Moore Street: the free reign given by the likes of RTE to eejits propagating romanticised rubbish about the "rare aul times" and the charm and character of some run-down dump is insufferable.



But I think the butcher's point was solid; for instance you wouldn't recognise Parnell Street in front of Fibbers with the LUAS and some excellent food and drink spots. In the recession I remember fairly squalid unlicensed raves in semi-derelict premises were the most happening thing around there.

partyguinness

Augeo wrote: »

Why rig them when mathematically the house always win? With preferential shuffling etc card counting in real like is often more or less a waste of time and even without mitigation against card counting the house always maintains an edge.

..to increase the odds of the house winning perhaps would be my Joe Soap guess.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

..to increase the odds of the house winning perhaps would be my Joe Soap guess.

That would contravene regulation etc etc etc why bother their arse when they can't lose anyway over time?
Losers love to reckon it's rigged against them bla bla bla ....... basic maths dictate you can't beat the house.

partyguinness

Augeo wrote: »

That would contravene regulation etc etc etc why bother their arse when they can't lose anyway over time?
Losers love to reckon it's rigged against them bla bla bla ....... basic maths dictate you can't beat the house.

Well..it was an answer from a gentleman who is a specialist programmer and works with online gambling programmes so I will add more credence to his answers if you don't mind.

I don't gamble- I have never set foot inside a casino or arcade and save far a brief dalliance with Paddy Power 11/12 years ago with Blackjack and Texas Hold em I do not do anything online.

I work to hard for my money and I am not an idiot.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

Well..it was an answer from a gentleman who is a specialist programmer and works with online gambling programmes so I will add more credence to his answers if you don't mind............

I couldn't give less of a fnck to be honest what you believe
It's random number generation (in line with specific game criteria) in online card casino games, anyone who reckons they are rigged is a total fncktard IMO.

ceadaoin.

Yeah they definitely aren't rigged. Do you think they would get away that? The odds of a payout are set and can be adjusted within certain parameters but that's it. These games are regulated and subject to investigation to make sure they are legit.

double jobbing

Homelander wrote: »

I really don't get the outrage over bookies and gambling. I mean, someone just described the industry as a "nightmare cancer" and "filth".

Most people who gamble, gamble responsibly/in moderation. I personally only make a few bets a year and when I do, it's a Hail Mary - I'm 90% guaranteed to lose, but that's part of the fun, especially when you get that rare win.

Yes, people develop gambling problems, same as a minority of people develop drinking problems. That doesn't mean it should be banned and shops shut down.

I also have to laugh at the "they don't care about their staff/customers". As if that's somehow unique to the gambling industry. Hardly breaking news to state that most companies in all sectors don't give a flying **** about anything as long as the $$$ continues to roll in.

I think it's the accessibility that people have an issue with.

You can't blow an inheritance, or a redundancy cheque, or even a weeks wages, on drink or drugs in under an hour, unless you're bulk buying a silly amount of drugs.

rob316

Shops are better than on online as you actually have to go there to place a bet. The mobile apps are very dangerous that you can place a bet so easily during a game.

hopalongcass

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yeah they definitely aren't rigged. Do you think they would get away that? The odds of a payout are set and can be adjusted within certain parameters but that's it. These games are regulated and subject to investigation to make sure they are legit.

Is that you Paddy?

Agree with posters about their negative affect on communities but as long as sports are happening people will gamble,and banning them in any way just forces it underground into the hands of gangsters where the affect on communities is far worse.

You only have to look at countries where its banned and the affect is has on the poorest,getting gambling tick from gangsters and their legs broken when they don't pay,prohibition doesn't work.

PARlance

chicorytip wrote: »

Alcohol abuse causes far more societal damage than gambling. Most betting shop punters just like the weekly ten euro flutter and the bit of chat. Online betting has not really caught on here in Ireland.

Paddy Power process 5,700 online transactions per minute. They're a worldwide company but UK and Ireland is their largest market. That's from their annual report.

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that online betting hasn't really caught on here.

PARlance

PARlance wrote: »

Paddy Power process 5,700 online transactions per minute. They're a worldwide company but UK and Ireland is their largest market. That's from their annual report.

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that online betting hasn't really caught on here.

Because you cannot use a credit or debit card to put money into your account. You have to go to a shop.

Mysterypunter

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

A few months back I read "Tony 10", the book by the guy who ended up in prison for stealing from the post office he managed to fund his gambling addiction. One of the bits that stuck with me was when the Paddy Power app and phone line went down at some stage, Paddy Power himself contacted him to let him know that he could contact PP personally to place any bets he wanted.

It's an amoral business and absolutely can't be trusted to self-regulate. It also gets something of a free ride in the media (particularly RTE) as being a harmless flutter and a bit of fun. Which it is for many people but it also happens to destroy lives.

That man only went down that route to avoid a jail sentence, narcissistic mug punter, he punted away no bother until the tank was empty and then blamed the bookie. OisMcConville is a similar type, miserable bollix. Just asking anyway when are the shops supposed to open, is it August 10th?

BoroMan32

Deleted User wrote: »

Because you cannot use a credit or debit card to put money into your account. You have to go to a shop.

That's incorrect, as you can lodge money into an online account with a debit or credit card in Ireland.

The UK banned the use of credit cards to lodge money into online gambling accounts in April, and at least that dealt to some degree with the issue of people gambling with money they don't have.

The problem with the gambling industry in Ireland is the lack of regulation. They can basically do as they please; if you show any sort of skill or nous you'll find it impossible to get a bet online as they'll limit you to peanuts or refuse to take bets. If you're losing, you can do in as much as you like of course.

Mysterypunter

BoroMan32 wrote: »

That's incorrect, as you can lodge money into an online account with a debit or credit card in Ireland.

The UK banned the use of credit cards to lodge money into online gambling accounts in April, and at least that dealt to some degree with the issue of people gambling with money they don't have.

If you're losing, you can do in as much as you like of course.

This seems to be rule number one for the bookies, I opened an account and stuck in a few quid, then stuck in another few quid, and then another few quid, with the 4th deposit I did 4 trebles and an accum, and they all banged in. Made exactly 10 times the money I put in. Went to withdraw it and they said the account isn't verified. I said that's all very well, it wasn't verified when I was shovelling on the coal. I could have been an 8 year old girl who found a card belonging to her mam or dad, and opened an account that way. I know about the verification process of course, but I was just making a point. There have been numerous cases of young kids and teenagers spending loads of money on apps, games and in game purchases, as the card details are auto saved and once they are entered, remain on the system.

droimlis

I would far prefer to see the betting shops remain open and online gambling banned instead. Nothing wrong with a flutter and people should be free to do so but it's far too easy for people to click a few buttons and see their savings disappear. Much harder to hand over hard cash.

Tommybojangles

I really dont get the hate for betting shops. Why not the same hate for pubs because they serve alcoholics? They're a form of entertainment plain and simple. As someone said above online gambling is a far more dangerous means of drawing and sucking peoples money away.

The_Kew_Tour

droimlis wrote: »

I would far prefer to see the betting shops remain open and online gambling banned instead. Nothing wrong with a flutter and people should be free to do so but it's far too easy for people to click a few buttons and see their savings disappear. Much harder to hand over hard cash.

This would be much better.

I am banned from few online Bookies like PP cause I won few quid before off them. Once you get ahead and stay ahead they close your accounts fairly quick.

Nothing wrong with flutter though and for some who only throw few Bob every week is light entertainment

Kermit.de.frog

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This would be much better.

I am banned from few online Bookies like PP cause I won few quid before off them. Once you get ahead and stay ahead they close your accounts fairly quick.

Is that legal? What's the excuse they use for closing an account?

ceadaoin.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is that legal? What's the excuse they use for closing an account?

of course its legal. They are there to make money, not give it away. When I worked there we would tell customers it was a "trading decision" aka they won too much

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is that legal? What's the excuse they use for closing an account?

Their legal people will have thought of that, don't you worry.

Kermit.de.frog

Surely they have to have legitimate grounds other than "you're winning too much"...because that's the gig, that's their business model.

And like any other business involved in that type of risk - if they lose, tough (otherwise their business can literally never go out of business). It's like a contract.

At least that's how it's suppose to work.

I'm surprised it's legal to just close accounts or eject someone from a premises on the basis they are winning too much.

I'd be interested to hear how they shape their excuses.

hopalongcass

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Surely they have to have legitimate grounds other than "you're winning too much"...because that's the gig, that's their business model.

And like any other business involved in that type of risk - if they lose, tough. It's like a contract.

At least that's how it's suppose to work.

I'm surprised it's legal to just close accounts or eject someone from a premises on the basis they are winning too much.

I'd be interested to hear how they shape their excuses.

Bookies don't legally have to even pay a winning bet,but it obviously would affect their reputation and when their licence is up for renewal it would work against them.

But banning winning punters is standard operating procedure for them,they even have hightech computer software for scanning certain punters handwriting when he drops in a bet so they know its him and not to take his bets.

4068ac1elhodqr

hopalongcass wrote: »

they even have hightech computer software for scanning certain punters handwriting when he drops in a bet so they know its him and not to take his bets.

This is old school, many now have facial recognition technology claused into their T&C's, so within seconds of showing up, will get flagged up as mr luckypants, before even getting to leaning distance of the counter.

If you don't mind a bit of crazy t-shirt fashion (and other means) this technology advantage can generally be nullified.

LuasSimon

So bookies want to only take losers and wont allow anyone with a brain or a betting brain have a bet......they should put up a sign over the door ..LOSERS ONLY ALLOWED BET HERE.....might make a few people reflect before they enter the premises.

hopalongcass

But in defense of the bookies and i don't like to be defending them,its partially understandable and necessary because of the way horse racing works.

Its almost impossible to stop a trainer/jockey combination holding back a horse for a handful of races and letting him off the leash so to speak when his odds drift enough and lumping on in the bookies.

I would imagine its these guys that the bookies fear the most,when they make a run on the bookies they can devastate them,its almost like a hidden tax they have to regularly pay to these people in the know in horse racing.

ShatterAlan

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I wish, they're a scourge and they're placement next to pubs is no accident. Online gambling only with strict monthly limits would be the way forward imo.

Aren't right-wingers like you all for getting money from whomever?


I thought exploiting the vulnerable for profit was the great right wing mantra.


If there's a market and a need then gain from it.

Hulk Hands

Alexandria Unsightly Star wrote: »

This is old school, many now have facial recognition technology claused into their T&C's, so within seconds of showing up, will get flagged up as mr luckypants, before even getting to leaning distance of the counter.

If you don't mind a bit of crazy t-shirt fashion (and other means) this technology advantage can generally be nullified.

Which bookies have that clauses into their T&C's?

Hulk Hands

LuasSimon wrote: »

So bookies want to only take losers and wont allow anyone with a brain or a betting brain have a bet......they should put up a sign over the door ..LOSERS ONLY ALLOWED BET HERE.....might make a few people reflect before they enter the premises.

It's true, when you think about it that way it's a very unfair way to do business and it's a source of immense frustration for many.

However, it's actually exceedingly easy to make money gambling. You only need a grasp of probability, an understanding of the industry and a basic understanding of the sport in question. Winning punters tend to communicate together, meaning knowledge is passed easily. Many work in syndicates.

If you allowed all the winners to bet freely then it wouldn't be possible for bookies to make money on current terms. They would have to remove bonuses and concessions which help recreational punters. A small few would hoover up lots of the profit from the overall turnover. It's the ordinary recreational who would lose out in the end.

It's a constant argument as to how much bookies should limit winners, and some are worse than others and take it way too far. There has to be some degree of it though

stretchaq

Hulk Hands wrote: »

It's true, when you think about it that way it's a very unfair way to do business and it's a source of immense frustration for many.

However, it's actually exceedingly easy to make money gambling. You only need a grasp of probability, an understanding of the industry and a basic understanding of the sport in question. Winning punters tend to communicate together, meaning knowledge is passed easily. Many work in syndicates.

If you allowed all the winners to bet freely then it wouldn't be possible for bookies to make money on current terms. They would have to remove bonuses and concessions which help recreational punters. A small few would hoover up lots of the profit from the overall turnover. It's the ordinary recreational who would lose out in the end.

It's a constant argument as to how much bookies should limit winners, and some are worse than others and take it way too far. There has to be some degree of it though

Elaborate on exceedingly easy????

Dr. Bre

So when are they expected to reopen ? Same time as pubs?

hopalongcass

stretchaq wrote: »

Elaborate on exceedingly easy????

In the long run the bookies will get most of these people thinking they got a system all sports are highly highly unpredictable,its the horse racing folk they fear and these measures are mostly in place for them.

4068ac1elhodqr

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Which bookies have that clauses into their T&C's?

Ladbrokes and Coral, also pretty standard across most casinos.

Just wear a specific fashion t-shirt to overload their camera algorithm process and possibly create a sys.error. Ideally a small group walking to together.

There are plenty of more subtle techniques, using UV/IR cosmetics.

Hulk Hands

stretchaq wrote: »

Elaborate on exceedingly easy????

Go Google overrounds, arbitrage, bad e/w, 100% markets. Learn to watch Betfair and keep an eye on bookmakers and when they make be a bigger price than the betfair line. I guarantee that you'll be making money by mid June.

Granted your accounts won't last long as that craic and there is a lot more skill involved to beat normal markets regularly and make proper money. However 95% of punters fall into the trap of focusing on sporting knowledge when probability and industry knowledge is 10 times more important. Knowing the above will give you a base to go forward

Hulk Hands

Alexandria Unsightly Star wrote: »

Ladbrokes and Coral, also pretty standard across most casinos.

Just wear a specific fashion t-shirt to overload their camera algorithm process and possibly create a sys.error. Ideally a small group walking to together.

There are plenty of more subtle techniques, using UV/IR cosmetics.

No they don't, it's against EU law for starters which they're all still complied by. Why would UK casinos need to monitor customers. The handwriting thing is half correct. Face recognition is complete nonsense. Boylesports do throw the odd photo behind counters alright supposedly

hopalongcass

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Go Google overrounds, arbitrage, bad e/w, 100% markets. Learn to watch Betfair and keep an eye on bookmakers and when they make be a bigger price than the betfair line. I guarantee that you'll be making money by mid June.

Granted your accounts won't last long as that craic and there is a lot more skill involved to beat normal markets regularly and make proper money. However 95% of punters fall into the trap of focusing on sporting knowledge when probability and industry knowledge is 10 times more important. Knowing the above will give you a base to go forward

It happens but no man not easy and you have to bet enormous amounts to make small margins and the bookies be onto it easily.

4068ac1elhodqr

Hulk Hands wrote: »

No they don't, it's against EU law for starters which they're all still complied by. Why would UK casinos need to monitor customers. The handwriting thing is half correct. Face recognition is complete nonsense. Boylesports do throw the odd photo behind counters alright supposedly

If anything the handwriting thing sounds like bolliux, with likely high error rates.

Maybe familarise yourself with what is known as 'small print' (Coral Privacy Policy).

To discharge our legal and regulatory obligations and duties which include (but are not limited to) Gambling, Anti-money Laundering, Anti-fraud & Anti-terrorism laws. This may include electronic methods of identifying you, such as through the use of cookies or biometric facial recognition procedures

To meet our Social Gambling obligations (such as recording self-excluders and where we believe a customer has a gambling problem). This may include electronic methods of identifying you, such as through the use of cookies or biometric facial recognition procedures

To prevent or detect fraud, theft or loss to our business and our customers
To protect our staff and other individuals from harm or loss This may include CCTV, monitoring online activity, electronic methods of identifying you, such as through the use of cookies or biometric facial recognition procedures

// This would apply more so to larger stores, and in the uk. The uk already has face-scanned millions of visitors, across shopping centres, and public spaces in several large cities, welcome to 2020.

Hulk Hands

hopalongcass wrote: »

It happens but no man not easy and you have to bet enormous amounts to make small margins and the bookies be onto it easily.

It doesn't matter what amounts you bet as with arbitrage you can't lose. Sign up to a service such as rebel betting or any of those types with a bankroll of 2k and you'll make another 2k in a few weeks no question before you're closed by all. I personally don't recommend it, I'd far sooner advise someone to learn the reasonably basic skill of odds compilation and when ready, use their accounts to try make proper profits. But there's no question there's very low hanging fruit there for newcomers. I've heard stories of college stats courses where the majority of the class were at it and most had never had a bet before

Lundstram

Yeah, lets ban gambling because a few people can't do it in moderation and sensibly. Let's ban alcohol, cigarettes, driving, chocolate, etc too.

Stupid thread.

Kermit.de.frog

Lundstram wrote: »

Yeah, lets ban gambling because a few people can't do it in moderation and sensibly. Let's ban alcohol, cigarettes, driving, chocolate, etc too.

Stupid thread.

Except, if you actually read the OP you would see no suggestion of banning gambling. In fact it's written bold letters.

hopalongcass

Hulk Hands wrote: »

It doesn't matter what amounts you bet as with arbitrage you can't lose. Sign up to a service such as rebel betting or any of those types with a bankroll of 2k and you'll make another 2k in a few weeks no question before you're closed by all. I personally don't recommend it, I'd far sooner advise someone to learn the reasonably basic skill of odds compilation and when ready, use their accounts to try make proper profits. But there's no question there's very low hanging fruit there for newcomers. I've heard stories of college stats courses where the majority of the class were at it and most had never had a bet before

I have heard stories too man,but i don't believe in free money anymore,back in the Celtic Tiger days you might have convinced me a lot quicker.A website offering easy money should set off alarm bells for any sane thinking individual.

curioser

Dr. Bre wrote: »

So when are they expected to reopen ? Same time as pubs?

Think it's 29 June - non essential retail outlets with street access, if I recall the road map correctly

hopalongcass

English Horse racing starts Monday week June 1st Bookies will be back in full swing then.

robbiezero

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Surely they have to have legitimate grounds other than "you're winning too much"...because that's the gig, that's their business model.

And like any other business involved in that type of risk - if they lose, tough (otherwise their business can literally never go out of business). It's like a contract.

At least that's how it's suppose to work.

I'm surprised it's legal to just close accounts or eject someone from a premises on the basis they are winning too much.

I'd be interested to hear how they shape their excuses.

They dont ban you in my experience. Just reduce the amount you are allowed bet to very small money and send you something like this in email:

Dear Customer,


At Paddy Power we offer a wide range of promotions and concessions to our customers. These include Money Back Specials, Best Price Guaranteed, Free Bets and other bonuses.

Our Trading Department review accounts on a regular basis, we regret to inform you that we are no longer able to offer you any such promotions, with immediate effect. This decision has been taken after careful consideration and will not affect your ability to bet on our Sportsbook or any other Paddy Power product. I do apologise for any inconvenience caused.

This decision is in line with our Terms and Conditions , "Paddy Power may, at its sole discretion and without any requirement to give reasons, exclude any customer from the Services generally or from receiving selected promotions (e.g. guaranteed best price; bonuses; free bets; enhanced prices; and money-back specials) and any other promotions and offers introduced by us from time to time.

If you have any further queries please visit our Help Centre

Kind Regards,
Paddy Power Customer Service.

Kermit.de.frog

Ah right, so they don't ban you directly. They restrict (ban) you indirectly without an explicit blanket ban.

Thanks.