If there was an election tomorrow, how would you vote?

Manach

If FG had during this crisis managed a national unity government, then that at least would have spread the blame for the Wuhan flu. Given their clining to power during this crisis, then the voters must focus and judge on their actions alone. Given the economic fallout of the shutdown and the pain this will inflict, the nature tendancy to vote for the parties which promise most, ie economic socialists, will be pronunced.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

62% of social housing applicants derive income from only social welfare
there are 43,000 people in the workforce who have never paid a PRSI contribution in the state
The state benefits forum on here is full of threads about people begrudging having to fill out personal action plans etc.. and go to meetings to keep their dole.

Like it or not there are a huge amount of people in Ireland who have 0 interest in ever being gainfully employed.

Are you saying people on low or no incomes are applying for social housing? Victory. The system works. This includes tax payers you know, right?
Low paid people are not paying PRSI as policy dictate? The system works!
More anecdotes....

You failed to support your perpetual comments regarding people being perpetually unemployed and any party supporting such people. You failed to support and back up any details on people pretending to be homeless.
In the interest of the discussion, ongoing, it would be appreciated if you began with 'I believe' or 'I think' rather than selling it as some form of fact.

Jizique

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You mean unrealistic like a rent freeze, 350 euro social welfare payments, single payer health system.

No problem paying 350 for welfare but they also expect HAP - one payment, 350, and look after yourself please.
And an end to the disability scam - every knack who appears in court with multiple previous convictions seems to be on disability. Plus HAP

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

So how come FG fared so badly last time? The whole concept of the 'foreva' home and 'dem that don't want to work' comes under FG. To be fair Dara Murphy out did Margret Cash on that one.

Because they only actually delivered free stuff, sinn Fein promised more

RandomViewer

SouthWesterly wrote: »

That would work.. not.
A government with absolutely no experience of governing.

As opposed to the inept nepotistic journeymen we currently have,

OttoPilot

LeinsterDub wrote: »

SD policy hasn't changed since February how can you now be unhappy with it?

They havent changed at really and I still like them, I'm a former member. But let's be honest, they will not be running enough candidates or be viable in enough areas to be a major player in govt formation next time around. I would prefer them over SF but SF have proven now they have enough support to hurt FF/FG so I will move my vote to them.

RandomViewer

Experience_day wrote: »

You're right should have just have settle for mediocrity and either paid someone else's mortgage. Oh wait even better should have just have gone on the dole.

What exactly was was wrong with going for a house? I bought in a cheap area of dublin according to my means..

As far as I can see half the people who buy hoses moan constantly about the hassle and the cost, if it's going to cause so much grief then obviously it was beyond their means. So what if you pay someone else's mortgage for a while, now you're tied to one spot with a negative asset.

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

Any maintenance can be discussed, who is obliged to do what etc. They have tenancy agreements. As with any arrears these can be addressed.
Also you still have housing stock after 25 years, unlike with leasing.
What we do know is leasing and renting from private concerns doesn't seem to be helping. Value for money should be the goal.

It certainly can and the answer is the council will do everything, the tenant never pay for anything and if they don't pay the rent, can stay because they will be homeless otherwise.

Throw in water through tax instead of charges as well and don't forget the council connecting rubbish because water is an essential human right and it's the council fault we throw our rubbish in the street.

Great system. Works a treat if you don't work and don't pay tax.

Eric Cartman

Bowie wrote: »

Are you saying people on low or no incomes are applying for social housing? Victory. The system works. This includes tax payers you know, right?
Low paid people are not paying PRSI as policy dictate? The system works!
More anecdotes....

You failed to support your perpetual comments regarding people being perpetually unemployed and any party supporting such people. You failed to support and back up any details on people pretending to be homeless.
In the interest of the discussion, ongoing, it would be appreciated if you began with 'I believe' or 'I think' rather than selling it as some form of fact.

9% of social housing applicants only derive income from work , only 9% could possibly pay tax and our tax net is so small and income cap so low that most of them probably don't pay income tax either,

and before you start with the "bUt ThEy PaY vAt AnD ExCiSe" that doesn't count, tax payers = income tax payers , its what any reasonable person not trying to be obtuse means.

Geuze

Geuze wrote: »

Overall taxes are not high in Ireland.

Many earners pay zero income tax.

Many earners pay very little income tax.

But the top MTR kicks in very early, at 35k approx.

Our income tax system is very progressive, one of the most progressive in the world.

Taxes on low earners are very low.

Taxes on high earners are much closer to levels across the EU.

Overall, our direct income taxes are below typical EU rates, mainly due to very low PRSI, at 4%, versus e.g. 20% in DE.



One anecdote:

my parents pay less than 10% direct tax on approx 50k, and get:

two medical card
two FTP
free TV licence
35 pm / 420 pa off electricity

Something wrong with your maths. I pay significantly more than 10% tax. I paid about 35% last year on my gross income. I pay the public sector Levy but even removing that it would still be high 20s.

My brother earned 45 thousand last year and he actually recently told me he paid 11 thousand tax.

You also can't compare prsi. We pay other taxes. What's the overall percentages and what's it cover in the public services? That's what counts

I'm ok with fg as a party in power. I don't love them but I fancy the opposition less. I will wait however and look at all the local candidates first though because there's a certain fg person in my area that I will never vote for. I would abstain if it was a 1 horse race

OttoPilot

Yurt! wrote: »

^^^^^
People should probably start listening up to what this demographic is saying: mid-20s often stretching to late-30s. Bust their ass before, during and after the financial crisis only to be equated to Margret Cash for questioning why in a booming economy they are dealing with runaway rents and house-prices, can't afford to start a family and are actively mocked by the 'I'm alright Jack' and 'that's just the way it is' cohort. They grow in number by the year but some people can only talk about Venezuela.

The next phase of their career / lives will be marked by the covid-19 downturn. A good lot of these people will have dealt with two of the worst economic crises since the Great Depression in what should be the prime of their working lives and at a time when social mobility should be at its greatest.

Political parties should p*ss down the leg of this demographic at their peril (as FG did and found out to their cost).

But yeah, Margret Cash is where this is all at.

Luckily went to college so I didn't enter workforce full time until 2014, then I went back and did a masters in accounting a year later.

How is anyone expected to save for a mortgage if you're paying Dublin rent? I live at home and have a decent salary so I am saving now, but I feel for people who aren't on as much or pay a lot of rent (I pay 200). Before Coronavirus affected my spending, a good month was 1500 saved. The first time buyers grant is useless for single people because 1. There are no one bed places being built, they are all going to funds, and 2. To afford any new build you need 2 people on very good money or a ridiculous salary on your own.

I think we need to drive foreign money out of the irish housing market. If you're not living here, you should not be allowed to speculate on residential property prices. Secondly I would increase CGT on disposals of property substantially. We need to de-financialize the housing market by discouraging homeowners from profiting and losing money on property.

Eric Cartman

OttoPilot wrote: »

Luckily went to college so I didn't enter workforce full time until 2014, then I went back and did a masters in accounting a year later.

How is anyone expected to save for a mortgage if you're paying Dublin rent? I live at home and have a decent salary so I am saving now, but I feel for people who aren't on as much or pay a lot of rent (I pay 200). Before Coronavirus affected my spending, a good month was 1500 saved. The first time buyers grant is useless for single people because 1. There are no one bed places being built, they are all going to funds, and 2. To afford any new build you need 2 people on very good money or a ridiculous salary on your own.

I think we need to drive foreign money out of the irish housing market. If you're not living here, you should not be allowed to speculate on residential property prices. Secondly I would increase CGT on disposals of property substantially. We need to de-financialize the housing market by discouraging homeowners from profiting and losing money on property.

if you can't save and afford Dublin rent perhaps move to somewhere you can afford to save that you will likely end up buying in anyway. Better move to Ashbourne / Sallins / Gorey now and save on rent rather than paying Dublin money now only to end up there anyway.

OttoPilot

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if you can't save and afford Dublin rent perhaps move to somewhere you can afford to save that you will likely end up buying in anyway. Better move to Ashbourne / Sallins / Gorey now and save on rent rather than paying Dublin money now only to end up there anyway.

As I said I live at home so I'm ok. But if i was paying rent, i cannot move to these places without a significant wage cut which allows me to save less and also decreases the amount I can borrow. Catch 22

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

9% of social housing applicants only derive income from work , only 9% could possibly pay tax and our tax net is so small and income cap so low that most of them probably don't pay income tax either,

and before you start with the "bUt ThEy PaY vAt AnD ExCiSe" that doesn't count, tax payers = income tax payers , its what any reasonable person not trying to be obtuse means.

People who get family income supplement earn money from work,but are low paid pay income tax and also get welfare???(afaik large number of army families get this)



Like if people cant afford housing/rent...cant see issue of people getting houses and paying rent back to the state,seems an obvious solution??

Experience_day

RandomViewer wrote: »

As far as I can see half the people who buy hoses moan constantly about the hassle and the cost, if it's going to cause so much grief then obviously it was beyond their means. So what if you pay someone else's mortgage for a while, now you're tied to one spot with a negative asset.

If everyone took the same dullard viewpoint as you we'd still be in the caves...

I've not problem taking on the risk of a house to enjoy the benefits (which there a metric ton). But I do object to fiscally irresponsible decisions made to court those who enjoy the same with absolutely no input.

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

People who get family income supplement earn money from work,but are low paid pay income tax and also get welfare???(afaik large number of army families get this)



Like if people cant afford housing/rent...cant see issue of people getting houses and paying rent back to the state,seems an obvious solution??

nobody has an issue with social housing, I and others have an issue with social housing in places like Dublin where those who do not claim anything cannot afford. If only 9% of people on the social housing application list work and 62% absolutely do not work, there is no excuse for building social housing inside the m50.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

Stats for people who wish to remain perpetually unemployed please.

The high level of joblessness has been studied:

https://www.nesc.ie/news-events/press-releases/nesc-publishes-report-137-jobless-households-exploration-issues/


2016 study:
https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Household-joblessness-paper-final.pdf

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

nobody has an issue with social housing, I and others have an issue with social housing in places like Dublin where those who do not claim anything cannot afford. If only 9% of people on the social housing application list work and 62% absolutely do not work, there is no excuse for building social housing inside the m50.

What about your other 29%??


Social housing is needed across state,rest of country before this virus was at best 18 months behind dublin,


Theres no sense in paying out indefinetly to landlords either,build the housing

...also needs a variety of social housing,with more 1 and 2 bed units.....theres no sense in having people living into old age,family raised and gone in 3 and 4 houses,while shovelling money into landlords/hotels to house homeless families

The proposal by many of a blanket ban on social housing,is a recipe for diaster,and will end up with like everything else supplied to.the state,see taxpayers get fleeced



Serious comsiderations need to be given to lowering building regs too,lads in social housing with underfloor heating,while others raising families in hotel rooms is idiocy that only the green party would think is wise.....state should provide the housing,but only to a basic standred,

Geuze

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Something wrong with your maths. I pay significantly more than 10% tax. I paid about 35% last year on my gross income. I pay the public sector Levy but even removing that it would still be high 20s.

I do the tax returns every year. All is correct.

Less than 10% direct tax on 48-50k income.

I will actually look at the P21 now, just to get the exact figures:

Income = 52,200
Tax = 3,858.91
USC = 730
PRSI = nil, as over 66

Total = 4,588 or 8.8% direct income taxes

Such a generous country!!

Plus two med cards, two FTP, free TV licence, and 35 pm off the elec bill.

Geuze

Experience_day wrote: »

Out of curiosity whats the direct tax on single salary in the 60_80k range?

As is well know, the direct tax system here is very progressive, so people on 80k will be paying close to EU levels.

60k single person = 26.73% excl USC, as too complex for me to calculate in a hurry

80k single person = 31.05% tax and PRSI, excl USC.

Geuze

Eric Cartman wrote: »

nobody has an issue with social housing, I and others have an issue with social housing in places like Dublin where those who do not claim anything cannot afford. If only 9% of people on the social housing application list work and 62% absolutely do not work, there is no excuse for building social housing inside the m50.

Yes.

Crazy to build any social housing inside the canals.

RandomViewer

Experience_day wrote: »

If everyone took the same dullard viewpoint as you we'd still be in the caves...

I've not problem taking on the risk of a house to enjoy the benefits (which there a metric ton). But I do object to fiscally irresponsible decisions made to court those who enjoy the same with absolutely no input.

Seems to be a Fine Gael trait, giving out about someone else having something, petty jealousy eats them up , end up alone and miserable half starving themselves to gather money they never spend then they die and some distant relative pisses the money against a wall.

Geuze

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Something wrong with your maths. I pay significantly more than 10% tax. I paid about 35% last year on my gross income. I pay the public sector Levy but even removing that it would still be high 20s.

As you as are a public servant, please note that the normal 6.5% pension conts and the PRD/ASC are not included in tax rates.

They are not included when comparing tax paid across people or countries.

Geuze

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

My brother earned 45 thousand last year and he actually recently told me he paid 11 thousand tax.

On 45k in 2019, tax and PRSI is 9,440 or 21%, exl. USC.

So 11k could well be correct, including USC, yes.

That's 24.44%

Experience_day

Geuze wrote: »

As is well know, the direct tax system here is very progressive, so people on 80k will be paying close to EU levels.

60k single person = 26.73% excl USC, as too complex for me to calculate in a hurry

80k single person = 31.05% tax and PRSI, excl USC.

Pwc Ireland says total liability is 35.13%....(not sure why you don't include USC..) And I don't think you get a lot of public services for that.

Looking at their calc for a graduate or unskilled professional @ 30k you're looking at a weekly disposable income of 489. So a week of work is worth 139 EUR more than being on the dole. Oh and you don't get medical card, HAP etc etc

It's not sustainable.

James Brown

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

It certainly can and the answer is the council will do everything, the tenant never pay for anything and if they don't pay the rent, can stay because they will be homeless otherwise.

Throw in water through tax instead of charges as well and don't forget the council connecting rubbish because water is an essential human right and it's the council fault we throw our rubbish in the street.

Great system. Works a treat if you don't work and don't pay tax.

so you've a problem with the system not being policed properly? #metoo
You suggest some are let go in arrears rather than make them homeless? i suppose I'd rather lose a weeks social housing rent than pay for a week in a hotel, or leased apartment.

Baloney. People on low/no income were never going to be paying for water charges.

So you've a few gripes. It needs amending and policing. Agreed. Cheaper for the tax payer than hotels and bunging wads to vulture funds even with arrears.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

9% of social housing applicants only derive income from work , only 9% could possibly pay tax and our tax net is so small and income cap so low that most of them probably don't pay income tax either,

and before you start with the "bUt ThEy PaY vAt AnD ExCiSe" that doesn't count, tax payers = income tax payers , its what any reasonable person not trying to be obtuse means.

It's hard to follow, you're away off the road you started on.
What has low/no income people applying for social housing got to do with your concerns over the perpetually unemployed and how many, if any are doing so fraudulently, because if your issue is people on welfare, I think it's policy you have issue with not the bogeyman you raise at every opportunity. Nor is it your unproven claim SF/SD/whomever will service the wants of people choosing not to work.
People who need a dig out should get one IMO.

Basically it seems you've problems with the tax payer helping out those who need help. That's fine.
I assume should your business be eligible for state aid you'll knock it back? I mean if things are tight go out and get a job pays you better, right?

Geuze

Experience_day wrote: »

Pwc Ireland says total liability is 35.13%....(not sure why you don't include USC..)

I have Excel files done with tax and PRSI incl, but not USC, and if I have just one minute to type the reply, I don't have enough time to calculate USC by hand.

JJJackal

Deleted User wrote: »

Theres no sense in paying out indefinetly to landlords either,build the housing

Actually it probably makes sense paying a landlord if your the government.

You get a fixed asset eg a 3 bed house in Galway which costs circ 250,000 for lets say 1600 per month.

Then you get property tax and approximately 50% back in tax...

Plus you dont maintain it to government standards

JJJackal

JJJackal wrote: »

Actually it probably makes sense paying a landlord if your the government.

You get a fixed asset eg a 3 bed house in Galway which costs circ 250,000 for lets say 1600 per month.

Then you get property tax and approximately 50% back in tax...

Plus you dont maintain it to government standards

Galway is not worth 1600 a month to live in......if yous put price to build house at 180K...you have paid out to landlord price of house in less than 10.years....

while also never getting to own said asset,deosnt seem a great deal tbh mate