Green Party wish list.

Water John

Cities certainly should be moving to other forms of transport than the car, no disagreement.
Any towns that have traffic problems are because through traffic is not by passing it, eg the N22 with Macroom and Ballyvourney, presently being upgraded.
BTW there is a rail link from Killarney to Cork via Mallow in place.

Redgirl82

Water John wrote: »

Cities certainly should be moving to other forms of transport than the car, no disagreement.
Any towns that have traffic problems are because through traffic is not by passing it, eg the N22 with Macroom and Ballyvourney, presently being upgraded.

So build another road?

Has it worked before? Or just pushed the bottle neck to another spot?

Water John

Most bottlenecks that you would hear on the AA Roadwatch for years have largely disappeared. The same no of cars are arriving in Cork/Killarney. Road upgrade doesn't change that, just benefits the towns along the way.

efanton

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Name one city without traffic issues?

Look at even the bigger towns and they are at a standstill....connecting all major town and cities with public transport is the only way forward, Dublin and major cities will continue to be central hubs for jobs. What’s the plan to get people in and out of these cities?

We are not talking about cities. We are talking about rural Ireland.
You know that bit outside of the M50 that counts as the vast majority of the country.

Our town now has traffic issues, because the promised M20 motorway has yet to be built. Public transport is not going to solve that.

Seriously think about this. I would suggest you open up google maps and count the towns in just county Cork. Now calculate the number of busses you would need to provide public transport between them remembering for every route you need at least one vehicle in each direction and each route can not last more than an hour unless you provide additional vehicles to provide for an hourly service.
Just for you own curiosity try it.

Then do that for every other county in the country. What you are suggesting is totally unfeasible,

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

I’m talking about connecting towns and cities.....what percentage of population will live outside going forward and

So we should ignore rural areas?

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

So build another road?

Has it worked before? Or just pushed the bottle neck to another spot?

The Adare bypass will absolutely remove the bottleneck in the town.

efanton

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

The Adare bypass will absolutely remove the bottleneck in the town.

And how much is is costing to build by-passes for every town in Ireland that has congestion?

It would nave been far cheaper in the long run to have built a motorways from Limerick to Tralee, and Limerick to Cork than it would to constantly be building by-passes in towns and villages and repairing roads that simply were never designed for the heavy goods vehicles we have now..

The motorways would get rid of the congestion that RedGirl82 seems so worried about and it would improve both the health and well being of the people living in the towns that are bypassed.

Hawkeye9212

efanton wrote: »

And how much is is costing to build by-passes for every town in Ireland that has congestion?

It would nave been far cheaper in the long run to have built a motorways from Limerick to Tralee, and Limerick to Cork than it would to constantly be building by-passes in towns and villages.

The motorways would get rid of the congestion that RedGirl82 seems so worried about and it would improve both the health and well being of the people living in the towns that are bypassed.

There is a planning application in for the M21. The Adare - Rathkeale section (including the Adare bypass) is the first major work on the route.

Bass Reeves

Redgirl82 wrote: »

I’m talking about connecting towns and cities.....what percentage of population will live outside going forward and

At present about 33% of the countries population live in cities. After that you have another about 17 towns that all have populations from 20-40K. or about 500K people. Finally you have another 500k people living in 78 towns average population is about 12K varying from 4-20K So about 50% of the population live in fairly large urban centers.

Redgirl82 wrote: »

So build another road?

Has it worked before? Or just pushed the bottle neck to another spot?

Ennis, Clarecastle, Castleisland, Newbridge, Roscrea Kildare, Portlaois, Nenagh, Claregalway, Tuam, Tullamore, Arklow, Athlone, I could keep on going.

efanton

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

There is a planning application in for the M21. The Adare - Rathkeale section (including the Adare bypass) is the first major work on the route.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At present about 33% of the countries population live in cities. After that you have another about 17 towns that all have populations from 20-40K. or about 500K people. Finally you have another 500k people living in 78 towns average population is about 12K varying from 4-20K So about 50% of the population live in fairly large urban centers.



Ennis, Clarecastle, Castleisland, Newbridge, Roscrea Kildare, Portlaois, Nenagh, Claregalway, Tuam, Tullamore, Arklow, Athlone, I could keep on going.

My point being that if we had have instead went straight to building a extensive motorway network almost all of these bypasses would not have been required, the congestion and pollution that Redgirl 82 and the Green's complain of would not be an issue, and that it probably would not have cost that much if anything more over a period of time.

The very problems that the Greens' are complaining about would be solved by a motorway network if they were predominantly used by electric vehicles.

Hawkeye9212

efanton wrote: »

My point being that if we had have instead went straight to building a extensive motorway network almost all of these bypasses would not have been required, the congestion and pollution that Redgirl 82 and the Green's complain of would not be an issue, and that it probably would not have cost that much if anything more over a period of time.

The very problems that the Greens' are complaining about would be solved by a motorway network if they were predominantly used by electric vehicles.

We can't change the past. The Greens don't want the M20 to be built. They prefer a direct railway from Limerick to Cork.

efanton

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

We can't change the past. The Greens don't want the M20 to be built. They prefer a direct railway from Limerick to Cork.

Which will not be possible without building an entirely new rail line. You cant have commuter trains and fast inter city trains heading for Dublin on the same line.

If they only intend to build or upgrade intercity transport then what is the point in the first place? You are not removing fossil fuel cars from the road, you still have the congestion and you havent served the needs of the people who commute to Limerick or Cork but who do not live in towns that have a rail station on the line.

For the cost of that commuter line (many billions of euro) it would be cheaper to build the motorway (1.2 billion) and provide a free electric car for everyone who is currently driving to Cork or Limerick (the N20 current has about 18,000 vehicles on it daily 18000 x 30k come to 540 million) and with that you dont have the inevitable congestion caused by people commuting to rail stations.

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

It would nave been far cheaper in the long run to have built a motorways from Limerick to Tralee, and Limerick to Cork than it would to constantly be building by-passes in towns and villages and repairing roads that simply were never designed for the heavy goods vehicles we have now..

The state tried this in the 80's and 90's where the county council was responsible for these bypasses and road projects. But it was too much of a task for them and it cost too much.

The FF government with Labour setup the NRA to manage national road projects and the state started to build larger, longer stretches of Dual Carriageways and Motorways. As a result, we have the motorway network of today, which is still unfinished, but about 75% there. We need the Western Atlantic Corridor for example. Get that done, we will have only bits and pieces left to do.

If we actually finish off the motorway network in Ireland over the next 10 years, we should then not have to build anything new for decades after that.

The future of transport is with self driving EV's. They are a reality even now and will be a mainstay on Irish roads within the decade. We will need roads for this.

In urban areas, we need **** loads more bike lanes, and good, reliable bus corridors. Bus Connects is huge and will be a game-changer once it's implemented and they naysayers are proved wrong
Perhaps some Luas style option in Cork and for Dublin some Metro/Dart lines for the high-density corridor routes. The only future rail has in Ireland is this type of commuter based rail. Navan is a no brainer as is DU.

Talk of Rail links to Donegal is stupid. Has anyone ever been there? The way the place is settled and populated is a disaster for any transport solution. One-off housing everywhere. The place is destroyed with it.

So we are left with the legacy of 50 years of bad planning, that cannot be arrested overnight. The Greens are better off trying to ban one off housing first, and then over time, increase bus services to the towns and villages that grow from that.

Redgirl82

Bass Reeves wrote: »

At present about 33% of the countries population live in cities. After that you have another about 17 towns that all have populations from 20-40K. or about 500K people. Finally you have another 500k people living in 78 towns average population is about 12K varying from 4-20K So about 50% of the population live in fairly large urban centers.



Ennis, Clarecastle, Castleisland, Newbridge, Roscrea Kildare, Portlaois, Nenagh, Claregalway, Tuam, Tullamore, Arklow, Athlone, I could keep on going.

Yes and that was down to poor planning. Going forward planning should be only granted in town unless a specific reason why required outside

Geuze

efanton wrote: »

Which will not be possible without building an entirely new rail line. You cant have commuter trains and fast inter city trains heading for Dublin on the same line.

A new line from Charleville, off the Dublin-Cork line, heading north to Adare to join a rebuilt and improved Foynes line into Limerick sounds like a good idea.

As well as a motorway from LK to CK.

What the Germans do is place the new line in the same corridor as the motorway, maybe 20m apart.

I'd say 200 kph intercity trains from CK-LK should be able to use the line at the same time as 120/160 kph regional stopping services?

Rows Grower

Eamon has ruled himself out as the next Taoiseach.

How noble and meek of him, he'll surely inherit the earth.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/eamon-ryan-teeing-himself-up-22081761

Bass Reeves

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Yes and that was down to poor planning. Going forward planning should be only granted in town unless a specific reason why required outside

We will still have 2 million people living in rural Ireland. Even if planning stopped tomorrow morning at a guess there is 100-150k derelict/semi derelict houses that would be made habitable.

Even at that you can expect that small apartments (granny flats) build onto houses as kids take over parents houses

Bass Reeves

Geuze wrote: »

A new line from Charleville, off the Dublin-Cork line, heading north to Adare to join a rebuilt and improved Foynes line into Limerick sounds like a good idea.

As well as a motorway from LK to CK.

What the Germans do is place the new line in the same corridor as the motorway, maybe 20m apart.

I'd say 200 kph intercity trains from CK-LK should be able to use the line at the same time as 120/160 kph regional stopping services?

So the train starts in Foynes in the morning and collects it 10-15 odd passengers (30-50% on the free travel) , something similar in Askeaton and the free travellers from Rathkeale a mile+ outside each village. Onto Adare and Patrickwell where the station will be further from the villages to arrive in Colbert station. Now the main employment area's are all 5km from there. The line will do 1-2 trains morning and evening. Ennis to Limerick struggles to do that and it had a population of 25k.

I say Rathluirc (Charlesville) I'd a sub 5k town, but again 50% of people commuting would be going to.jobs in Raheen, Shannon or Castletroy. Very few jobs in Limerick city center compared to the hinterlands

Edgware

Geuze wrote: »

A new line from Charleville, off the Dublin-Cork line, heading north to Adare to join a rebuilt and improved Foynes line into Limerick sounds like a good idea.

As well as a motorway from LK to CK.

What the Germans do is place the new line in the same corridor as the motorway, maybe 20m apart.

I'd say 200 kph intercity trains from CK-LK should be able to use the line at the same time as 120/160 kph regional stopping services?

Would 200 kph be fast enough?

Geuze

My suggestion is trains from Cork city to Limerick city.

I don't see Foynes as having any service, or any line.

Here is my proposal:

Upgrade existing line to 200kph from Cork to Dublin, and electrify it.

All Dublin-Cork services (intercity and regional) using electric trains.

Build new electrified 2-track line off DUB-CRK line at Charleville, northwards, maybe parallel with the new motorway, at least in some places.

Maybe stations in Croom and Adare?

New line to join the alignment of the existing line near Adare, through Patrickswell, into LK city.

LK city gets suburban stations to help grow population (maybe two, Raheen??)

Services to be a mixture of fast 200kph limited stop IC from city to city (maybe only stopping in Mallow and Charleville?), with 120/160kph regional trains stopping at all stations.

Bass Reeves

Geuze wrote: »

My suggestion is trains from Cork city to Limerick city.

I don't see Foynes as having any service, or any line.

Here is my proposal:

Upgrade existing line to 200kph from Cork to Dublin, and electrify it.

All Dublin-Cork services (intercity and regional) using electric trains.

Build new electrified 2-track line off DUB-CRK line at Charleville, northwards, maybe parallel with the new motorway, at least in some places.

Maybe stations in Croom and Adare?

New line to join the alignment of the existing line near Adare, through Patrickswell, into LK city.

LK city gets suburban stations to help grow population (maybe two, Raheen??)

Services to be a mixture of fast 200kph limited stop IC from city to city (maybe only stopping in Mallow and Charleville?), with 120/160kph regional trains stopping at all stations.

Tell us the one about the three bears and the blonde girl it's more realistic

efanton

Geuze wrote: »

A new line from Charleville, off the Dublin-Cork line, heading north to Adare to join a rebuilt and improved Foynes line into Limerick sounds like a good idea.

As well as a motorway from LK to CK.

What the Germans do is place the new line in the same corridor as the motorway, maybe 20m apart.

I'd say 200 kph intercity trains from CK-LK should be able to use the line at the same time as 120/160 kph regional stopping services?

You would have to put in a third track for that to happen. if not for its entire length then certainly have a third track for the stretches in or near rail stations or on the very long stretches of rail between stations.

CIE destroyed the rail network and got rid of most of their customers by only serving major towns and cities and dropping the whole concept of a commuter train business in rural Ireland and one of their main arguments for doing so was that they would not be able to provide high speed intercity rail services by getting rid of the service that stopped at every station. If that's the case then I dont see how you will be able to get high speed intercity and local commuter trains that stop at every station on the same line without interrupting the passage of the high speed intercity trains.

Unless these new commuter trains are going to be nearly as fast as the inter city train then a third track would be needed to enable trains to pass each other.

Water John

Stopping one off rural housing is the usual cry again. That is the structure of our society, design solutions around that. BTW many families are delighted with the space for children in rural housing ATM.

Here is a further presentation on agriculture. Dr. Mitloehner outlines the carbon cycle of ruminants who produce Methane (CH4) in detail. He shows that this element of agriculture production has in fact little effect on the environment, as it is a, closed cycle. The effect is stable unless you're increasing herd size.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/latest-science-on-methane-emissions-ignored-by-media-dr-mitloehner/

markodaly

Water John wrote: »

Stopping one off rural housing is the usual cry again. That is the structure of our society, design solutions around that. BTW many families are delighted with the space for children in rural housing ATM.

The solution around that is the car, which we already are doing.

No other developed country builds one-off housing as we do, and there is a very good reason for that. It's grossly inefficient and wasteful. But once people get their McMansions, then hey, at least that person is happy.

Water John

Ireland has a tradition of dispersed living, going back to Ceidhe Fields 5,000 years ago. Most of the 8M pre-famine lived this was also. The small towns are much the same size now as they were then and the cities much smaller.
EV car solves the issue.

ELM327

Geuze wrote: »

My suggestion is trains from Cork city to Limerick city.

I don't see Foynes as having any service, or any line.

Here is my proposal:

Upgrade existing line to 200kph from Cork to Dublin, and electrify it.

All Dublin-Cork services (intercity and regional) using electric trains.

Build new electrified 2-track line off DUB-CRK line at Charleville, northwards, maybe parallel with the new motorway, at least in some places.

Maybe stations in Croom and Adare?

New line to join the alignment of the existing line near Adare, through Patrickswell, into LK city.

LK city gets suburban stations to help grow population (maybe two, Raheen??)

Services to be a mixture of fast 200kph limited stop IC from city to city (maybe only stopping in Mallow and Charleville?), with 120/160kph regional trains stopping at all stations.

You may as well suggest the idea of the trains being pulled by unicorns for all the chance your proposal has

Kivaro

ELM327 wrote: »

You may as well suggest the idea of the trains being pulled by unicorns for all the chance your proposal has

But at least it is a proposal.
Haven't been on this thread for a while, but glad to see the topic now steering towards possible sustainability solutions.

I would love to see a light rail solution for the whole country, but not on the existing rail tracks. Most train stations are located too far outside town or in problematic areas, which makes them impractical. We need a nationwide Tram system, where we can just hop on and hop off at convenient locations, and if that involves taking over road space, then so be it.

Hawkeye9212

Geuze wrote: »

My suggestion is trains from Cork city to Limerick city.

I don't see Foynes as having any service, or any line.

Here is my proposal:

Upgrade existing line to 200kph from Cork to Dublin, and electrify it.

All Dublin-Cork services (intercity and regional) using electric trains.

Build new electrified 2-track line off DUB-CRK line at Charleville, northwards, maybe parallel with the new motorway, at least in some places.

Maybe stations in Croom and Adare?

New line to join the alignment of the existing line near Adare, through Patrickswell, into LK city.

LK city gets suburban stations to help grow population (maybe two, Raheen??)

Services to be a mixture of fast 200kph limited stop IC from city to city (maybe only stopping in Mallow and Charleville?), with 120/160kph regional trains stopping at all stations.

Just upgrade the Limerick Junction to Cork and Limerick Junction to Limerick lines. The journey can already be done in around 2 hours. Just need direct services running in the morning and evening like Dublin.

Hawkeye9212

Kivaro wrote: »

But at least it is a proposal.
Haven't been on this thread for a while, but glad to see the topic now steering towards possible sustainability solutions.

I would love to see a light rail solution for the whole country, but not on the existing rail tracks. Most train stations are located too far outside town or in problematic areas, which makes them impractical. We need a nationwide Tram system, where we can just hop on and hop off at convenient locations, and if that involves taking over road space, then so be it.

Is this a serious suggestion?

Clarence Boddiker

Water John wrote: »

Stopping one off rural housing is the usual cry again. That is the structure of our society, design solutions around that. BTW many families are delighted with the space for children in rural housing ATM.

Here is a further presentation on agriculture. Dr. Mitloehner outlines the carbon cycle of ruminants who produce Methane (CH4) in detail. He shows that this element of agriculture production has in fact little effect on the environment, as it is a, closed cycle. The effect is stable unless you're increasing herd size.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/latest-science-on-methane-emissions-ignored-by-media-dr-mitloehner/

The attack on agriculture and beef in particular has nothing whatsoever to do with Climate Change, thats just a ruse. If there was any real concern the Eu wouldn't be planning on importing 100k tonnes annually of beef from South America in order to open new markets for Germany.