Green Party wish list.

Tell me how

ELM327 wrote: »

These two emboldened statements just showed how out of touch they are.

Care to explain how out of touch these ideas are for anyone in the country to consider them?

ELM327

Tell me how wrote: »

Care to explain how out of touch these ideas are for anyone in the country to consider them?

thousands of people dying, millions locked up around the world. Further millions out of work.

"-Ah sure let them grow plants" - Eamonn Ryan


Car sharing - why not go from a capitalist society where a man pays for his car, to one where everyone owns all cars and we share them. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

blanch152

efanton wrote: »

Well it was obviously possible to build 100,000 social houses, because that's exactly what FG have committed themselves to doing. Will we be able to do it now that we have additional billions of debt due to provide crisis, I'm not totally sure. We should at least try to address those issues in some way.

But the difference here is that the Greens are not putting proposals forward that could be done on a basis of getting them done as and when the country can afford them, they are using these demands as red lines that are non negotiable, irrespective of the impact they will have on the country or their cost.

As you said the sensible approach is to deal with the easy wins first, see what effect they are having and then progress to the more expensive and more difficult things as are required. Having hard targets is not the way to approach this. 7% might be possible some years, but as the years go by its going to be harder and harder to meet the same target. I would much prefer a commitment such as we will spend x% of disposable government revenue each year. Personally I would have preferred a similar pledge with regard the social housing too.

It is not possible to build 100,000 social homes in the timeframe that Sinn Fein talked about nor for the cost that they talked about. If you are maintaining that fantasy, it is difficult to engage with the rest of your debate.

Nermal

markodaly wrote: »

This is why the EU as a whole have climate targets when it comes to the reduction of CO2 emissions. Like, you should really know even the basics of something you want to discuss.

This is also why international, global cooperation is important as well.

China, Africa, the US and the rest of the world will not co-operate in impoverishing themselves.

They might sign treaties and make the right noises, but that's all.

Only in the EU are the levers of power held by deluded people who think 7% PA carbon reductions are compatible with first-world living standards.

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

O course it make a huge difference.
The idea of the green policies is to reduce carbon emissions and surely that is what electric vehicles do best.

If you are talking about traffic congestion in towns and villages then outside of the cities motorways are the best solution.

If you build rail lines how do people get from these towns and villages to the rail stations? You dont reduce the number of car journeys at all, you might just shorten them.

Also you now increase the congestion in the towns that have the rail stations.

I don't really understand your point here


Are you saying someone driving 5 mins to a train station is the same as someone driving for 1 hour to Dublin?



If you have 100 cars driving for 1 hours to Dublin would it not be better to have 1 train going with 100 people in it?



I posted before about airplanes. They done a analysis, a place from London to Glasgow I think was better for environment that 100 cars driving from London to Glasgow. That is not exact details but you get the maths.

Geuze

I am generally for policies to reduce CO2 emissions, reduce driving, boost public transport, etc.

All of that.

But, when I see what's happening in other countries, I often wonder why do we bother:

https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2019/11/climate-clarity.html

All our well-intentioned efforts against massive increases in coal production and consumption abroad.

Tell me how

ELM327 wrote: »

thousands of people dying, millions locked up around the world. Further millions out of work.

"-Ah sure let them grow plants" - Eamonn Ryan


Car sharing - why not go from a capitalist society where a man pays for his car, to one where everyone owns all cars and we share them. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Again, you are willfully misinterpreting the context in which he made those remarks.

As for car sharing. Because the capitalist society where people are coerced, manipulated, misled in to spending up to 20% of their income on a depreciating asset which is parked up over 92% of the time is such a good idea.

Again, they are not saying that anything is a single solution which works for every single case in the country.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

thousands of people dying, millions locked up around the world. Further millions out of work.

"-Ah sure let them grow plants" - Eamonn Ryan


Car sharing - why not go from a capitalist society where a man pays for his car, to one where everyone owns all cars and we share them. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

I think the lets grow plants was a good idea just not explained. If I remember correctly the point was to leave hardware stores open so people are would be locked at home could potentially grow fruit/veg etc. This was for mental health instead of sitting in front of a tv doing nothing all day


The car sharing will not work. I am not letting people into my car. End of story.



Better to concentrate on public transport and get trains properly in Irelnad, if that is a case of selling off IRish Rail to someone who will invest then why not?.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think the lets grow plants was a good idea just not explained. If I remember correctly the point was to leave hardware stores open so people are would be locked at home could potentially grow fruit/veg etc. This was for mental health instead of sitting in front of a tv doing nothing all day


The car sharing will not work. I am not letting people into my car. End of story.



Better to concentrate on public transport and get trains properly in Irelnad, if that is a case of selling off IRish Rail to someone who will invest then why not?.

He came across as a blithering idiot in my opinion.
If what you say was indeed the intended message then he needs a better speech writer!


I'm the same as you with the car sharing. No one is sharing my car and I for damn sure am not getting public transport either.

Shefwedfan

Geuze wrote: »

I am generally for policies to reduce CO2 emissions, reduce driving, boost public transport, etc.

All of that.

But, when I see what's happening in other countries, I often wonder why do we bother:

All our well-intentioned efforts against massive increases in coal production and consumption abroad.

We can only look after our own country. Making changes in Asia is not going to have a huge affect on the air quality in Dublin.

end of the road

efanton wrote: »

O course it make a huge difference.
The idea of the green policies is to reduce carbon emissions and surely that is what electric vehicles do best.

If you are talking about traffic congestion in towns and villages then outside of the cities motorways are the best solution.

If you build rail lines how do people get from these towns and villages to the rail stations? You dont reduce the number of car journeys at all, you might just shorten them.

Also you now increase the congestion in the towns that have the rail stations.

motor ways are for where there are large traffic volumes to justify them, as in roads between the cities, not roads between small towns and villages for which single carriage ways and regional upgrades could handle the traffic on offer.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

He came across as a blithering idiot in my opinion.
If what you say was indeed the intended message then he needs a better speech writer!


I'm the same as you with the car sharing. No one is sharing my car and I for damn sure am not getting public transport either.

I think a lot has to do with the coverage, they seemed to cut parts of it out but not his best moment. Still I have seen worse, the boyos from Kerry spluttering about electric car not going through a puddle and I didnt see that get as much coverage.....


I just about let my family into my car :P sometime they have to walk home if they make a mess

efanton

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not possible to build 100,000 social homes in the timeframe that Sinn Fein talked about nor for the cost that they talked about. If you are maintaining that fantasy, it is difficult to engage with the rest of your debate.

did you read the rest of my post or just stop on the first line. Did you read the post I was replying to?

FG have committed to building the same number of housing units over the same time line.

end of the road

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think the lets grow plants was a good idea just not explained. If I remember correctly the point was to leave hardware stores open so people are would be locked at home could potentially grow fruit/veg etc. This was for mental health instead of sitting in front of a tv doing nothing all day


The car sharing will not work. I am not letting people into my car. End of story.



Better to concentrate on public transport and get trains properly in Irelnad, if that is a case of selling off IRish Rail to someone who will invest then why not?.

that's the thing, there is nobody that will invest, at least not without serious guarantees and subsidies by the government.

that is even if you could get a buyer for irish rail which is unlikely, there is no return.

for most countries the main investment is by government.

Tell me how

ELM327 wrote: »

He came across as a blithering idiot in my opinion.
If what you say was indeed the intended message then he needs a better speech writer!


I'm the same as you with the car sharing. No one is sharing my car and I for damn sure am not getting public transport either.

This is a perfectly summation of the issue with making meaningful progress on climate action.

Some people are consumed with their selfish needs irrespective of the logic around them.

The question is whether or not more people will recognize the need to think for the benefit of others or to stick with the individual focus. There are always going to be some who think as you do, but, I am confident that much more will be in favour of contributing for the benefit of everyone in society, not just themselves.

But, we are approaching a cliff edge where if the people who are focused on their personal situation continue to allow governments to postpone meaningful action then everyone will be in trouble. Including you in your private vehicle.

efanton

Tell me how wrote: »

This is a perfectly summation of the issue with making meaningful progress on climate action.

Some people are consumed with their selfish needs irrespective of the logic around them.

The question is whether or not more people will recognize the need to think for the benefit of others or to stick with the individual focus. There are always going to be some who think as you do, but, I am confident that much more will be in favour of contributing for the benefit of everyone in society, not just themselves.

But, we are approaching a cliff edge where if the people who are focused on their personal situation continue to allow governments to postpone meaningful action then everyone will be in trouble. Including you in your private vehicle.

But what is the green alternative in rural areas?

Car sharing might work in an urban situation, or where multiple people work at the same business, but how can it possibly work otherwise?

The simple unavoidable fact is that it is going to be impossible for any government in the near future (next 20 years or so), and possibly never, to introduce public transport to hundreds of towns and villages across the country.
That being the case, the car is always going to be the main means of transport in rural areas.
Surely the emphasis should be increased and more rapid public transport in the cities and more urban areas, and a rapid move to electric vehicles and more efficient roads that reduce journey time, congestion and pollution (basically motorways where possible) in areas where it is not practical to implement public transport.

Its not that people do not get the idea of frequent, cheap and environmentally friendly public transport, it just that it simply will not be possible to introduce public transport to large parts of the country.

Redgirl82

efanton wrote: »

But what is the green alternative in rural areas?

Car sharing might work in an urban situation, or where multiple people work at the same business, but how can it possibly work otherwise?

The simple unavoidable fact is that it is going to be impossible for any government in the near future (next 20 years or so), and possibly never, to introduce public transport to hundreds of towns and villages across the country.
That being the case, the car is always going to be the main means of transport in rural areas.
Surely the emphasis should be increased and more rapid public transport in the cities and more urban areas, and a rapid move to electric vehicles and more efficient roads that reduce journey time, congestion and pollution (basically motorways where possible) in areas where it is not practical to implement public transport.

Its not that people do not get the idea of frequent, cheap and environmentally friendly public transport, it just that it simply will not be possible to introduce public transport to large parts of the country.

Stop building roads and you will have plenty of money to invest in public transport

This “what about rural” is used too much. Every country in world has rural areas, they are all been serviced by trains

How many people spend 1-2 hours everyday on a train into London? These trains are coming from all over England. They survive no problem on trains and think we are mad to use a car everyday

Thelonious Monk

The car sharing thing annoys me how worked up people get about it. I have never owned a car, but when I need one I borrow my parents one. I have also used GoCar and have rented cars to go to the West of Ireland. It's not very often I need one because I live in an area which is well connected to everything, and you can cycle everywhere if you want.
So people in rural Ireland will freak out saying they need cars to do absolutely anything - well therein lies the problem. Why should you need to own a car to do the very basics in life? It's ridiculous.
This is how most of us should be living in my opinion, close to amenities and little reliance on cars, and not having to own one- or do people want everyone in Ireland to own a car? That would be a disaster. The current model of designing our whole societies around private cars has so many downsides that it really needs to change.
Plus it must cost a f*cking fortune for fuel and upkeep, I wouldn't know though.

Thelonious Monk

Redgirl82 wrote: »

How many people spend 1-2 hours everyday on a train into London? These trains are coming from all over England. They survive no problem on trains and think we are mad to use a car everyday

England didn't give permission for decades to build a house wherever you want though, so they don't have the same scattered disconnected housing.

blanch152

It is absolutely brilliant to see the Greens on the cusp of government at this point in time. Changes in society are needed on foot of Covid-19 crisis and the Greens will ensure that they happen in an environmentally sustainable way.

Shefwedfan

blanch152 wrote: »

It is absolutely brilliant to see the Greens on the cusp of government at this point in time. Changes in society are needed on foot of Covid-19 crisis and the Greens will ensure that they happen in an environmentally sustainable way.

I am happy, I think they will do some good. Better than some of the other so called big boys!!

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

It is absolutely brilliant to see the Greens on the cusp of government at this point in time. Changes in society are needed on foot of Covid-19 crisis and the Greens will ensure that they happen in an environmentally sustainable way.

Diesels for everyone.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am happy, I think they will do some good. Better than some of the other so called big boys!!

Like the last time they were in?


I'm still choking on diesel

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Like the last time they were in?


I'm still choking on diesel

Fingers crossed.....

efanton

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The car sharing thing annoys me how worked up people get about it. I have never owned a car, but when I need one I borrow my parents one. I have also used GoCar and have rented cars to go to the West of Ireland. It's not very often I need one because I live in an area which is well connected to everything, and you can cycle everywhere if you want.
So people in rural Ireland will freak out saying they need cars to do absolutely anything - well therein lies the problem. Why should you need to own a car to do the very basics in life? It's ridiculous.
This is how most of us should be living in my opinion, close to amenities and little reliance on cars, and not having to own one- or do people want everyone in Ireland to own a car? That would be a disaster. The current model of designing our whole societies around private cars has so many downsides that it really needs to change.
Plus it must cost a f*cking fortune for fuel and upkeep, I wouldn't know though.

Why should you need to own a car to do the very basics in life?

you ask

for the very reason you have given yourself.

It's not very often I need one because I live in an area which is well connected to everything, and you can cycle everywhere if you want.

Is it the fault of the people in rural Ireland that government after government have neglected to provide a viable alternative or even a basic public transport system?
You cant fix the problems caused by under investment and bad planning overnight, nor can you expect those affected to dispose of their cars overnight either.

CIE cancelled all the local train services, and reduced the number of stations that trains stopped at, and where were the greens when rural communities were protesting to stop that?

Rural communities do not choose to use cars, that implies a choice. I'm sure many a lad would just love to be able have the option of a local bus service to go for a pint in the evening with out having to spend €10 each way for a taxi.
If public transport was available that would get people to college or work in time they would use it, but it simply is not there.

Here's how stupid the public transport system is in rural Ireland.
I was going to UCC to do a degree in physics and astrophysics. I was unable to use public transport to get from Charleville to Cork (even though it is the main bus route) because the first service they ran in the morning only arrived in Cork at 8.40 am and that was usually late arriving. I would then had to get from cork bus station to UCC and be seated in a lecture before 9.00am which was simply impossible. So instead like many other students where I live we used cars or in my case a motorcycle to get to UCC.
If I wanted to use a train service for Charlevile to Cork such a service does not even exist before 10 am. The first train leaves Charleville at 10:53 am nearly the middle of the day.
The services that you take for granted in Dublin or the bigger cities simply do not exist elsewhere. You might complain about a bus or dart being 20 minutes late, in rural Ireland we would be glad that we had any of those services at all as long as we could get to work or college in time
I am sure its the same in most places in rural Ireland.

So before you start complaining about cars in rural Ireland, first understand what the situation is currently like and why people have absolutely no choice whatsoever but to use a car or motorcycle. If you want to provide the people of rural Ireland with viable alternatives so that they can get their children to school, and get to work or college the make sure that that is put in place BEFORE you start asking people to get rid of their existing transport.

THe problem with the Green party and their supporters is they dont think of the implications of their policies, or whether those policies are even feasible or how those policies can be delivered. they live in a bubble and assume that everyone else is just like them and has access to the same services.

So answer the questions instead fo giving the same standard answer that seems to be the green answer to every thing, 'we have no choice'. The people in rural Ireland already have no choice.
How much will these policies cost?
Has any study been done to show that a proposal is even feasible or would work?
How long will they take to implement thee policies?
What transition measures ,if any, will be put in place until those proposed policies have been completed?

Thelonious Monk

efanton wrote: »

Is it the fault of the people in rural Ireland that government after government have neglected to provide a viable alternative or even a basic public transport system?

It's your fault yes for living in houses miles away from everything instead of in towns and villages. If we had busy towns and villages they could be connected by public transport, but usually public transport isn't viable between these places because no one would use it.
It's a total mess yes, but at least the Greens recognise that and want to move away from the current model which means you need a car to get around outside of the main cities.
Plus you'll all vote in the same parish pump idiots promising a bypass and not caring about public transport.
I could have bought a bigger house further out from the city where I'd need a car and would have crappy public transport, but I chose to buy in a rough enough area close to the city where I can cycle or take public transport there in less than 30 minutes.

ELM327

Tell me how wrote: »

Again, you are willfully misinterpreting the context in which he made those remarks.

As for car sharing. Because the capitalist society where people are coerced, manipulated, misled in to spending up to 20% of their income on a depreciating asset which is parked up over 92% of the time is such a good idea.

Again, they are not saying that anything is a single solution which works for every single case in the country.

As opposed to a non capitalist society where everyone receives a government issued travel pass for a non existent bus service and no one but the civil servants own cars?

Tell me how wrote: »

This is a perfectly summation of the issue with making meaningful progress on climate action.

Some people are consumed with their selfish needs irrespective of the logic around them.

The question is whether or not more people will recognize the need to think for the benefit of others or to stick with the individual focus. There are always going to be some who think as you do, but, I am confident that much more will be in favour of contributing for the benefit of everyone in society, not just themselves.

But, we are approaching a cliff edge where if the people who are focused on their personal situation continue to allow governments to postpone meaningful action then everyone will be in trouble. Including you in your private vehicle.

As ms Thatcher said, anyone on a bus over the age of 25 is a failure.
I don't subscribe to her policies on Ireland and the north but she got the UK pretty much bang on.


I couldn't give a crap about others if the alternative is no private car. You'll pry my private cars out of my cold dead hands.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Fingers crossed.....

What's next, remove DPF from diesels for green reasons?

ELM327

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's your fault yes for living in houses miles away from everything instead of in towns and villages. If we had busy towns and villages they could be connected by public transport, but usually public transport isn't viable between these places because no one would use it.
It's a total mess yes, but at least the Greens recognise that and want to move away from the current model which means you need a car to get around outside of the main cities.
Plus you'll all vote in the same parish pump idiots promising a bypass and not caring about public transport.
I could have bought a bigger house further out from the city where I'd need a car and would have crappy public transport, but I chose to buy in a rough enough area close to the city where I can cycle or take public transport there in less than 30 minutes.

That's your own fault.

Thelonious Monk

ELM327 wrote: »

That's your own fault.

There's no fault, I'm delighted to have my own place

efanton

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's your fault yes for living in houses miles away from everything instead of in towns and villages. If we had busy towns and villages they could be connected by public transport, but usually public transport isn't viable between these places because no one would use it.
It's a total mess yes, but at least the Greens recognise that and want to move away from the current model which means you need a car to get around outside of the main cities.
Plus you'll all vote in the same parish pump idiots promising a bypass and not caring about public transport.
I could have bought a bigger house further out from the city where I'd need a car and would have crappy public transport, but I chose to buy in a rough enough area close to the city where I can cycle or take public transport there in less than 30 minutes.

I dont live miles away from anywhere. I live in what is considered to be one of the biggest towns in Cork.
Are you a complete idiot or did you not read what I posted. Its obvious I would be travelling from Charleville, (look it up its the biggest town in North Cork after Mallow). The parish pump idiots as you call us didnt even get the offer of public transport, and much of the public transport that was available was removed by the government. As I have stated before, CIE reduced the number of stations trains stop at, and Bus Eireann cut a large number of their routes.
When we were protesting to save those routes where were the Greens, not once did the Green have anything to say about the reductions of public transport services in rural Ireland, in fact the Green's were in government while these public transport cuts were happening.
It seems the Green party and its supporters have short or selective memories as well as unworkable policies.


So how are the Green going to fix the problem? Do we all relocate into the cities is that your solution?