Green Party wish list.

Tell me how

ELM327 wrote: »

As opposed to a non capitalist society where everyone receives a government issued travel pass for a non existent bus service and no one but the civil servants own cars?



As ms Thatcher said, anyone on a bus over the age of 25 is a failure.
I don't subscribe to her policies on Ireland and the north but she got the UK pretty much bang on.


I couldn't give a crap about others if the alternative is no private car. You'll pry my private cars out of my cold dead hands.



What's next, remove DPF from diesels for green reasons?

This wil probably come as a surprise to you but, we are no longer living in the 1980's.

You really are going out of your way to prove your motivations are fueled solely by a lack of knowledge and/or selfishness.

There are always going to be people motivated in this way, hell, the president of the US is one such, but most in society have already cottoned on that that is an unsustainable approach.

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Stop building roads and you will have plenty of money to invest in public transport

This “what about rural” is used too much. Every country in world has rural areas, they are all been serviced by trains

How many people spend 1-2 hours everyday on a train into London? These trains are coming from all over England. They survive no problem on trains and think we are mad to use a car everyday

Your argument amounts to "Trains good. Roads bad". It's a simplistic argument which has no basis in reality. Even the Greens accept road building is necessary to some extent. Rail is not suitable for connecting towns and villages in rural Ireland.

Using London as an example is a joke as well. London's dominance in England is a controversial issue. Those people spending 1-2 hours on a train everyday are not happy. No one sane can be happy with that. They also have to pay more and more every year to use a poor and overcrowded service.

ELM327

Tell me how wrote: »

This wil probably come as a surprise to you but, we are no longer living in the 1980's.

You really are going out of your way to prove your motivations are fueled solely by a lack of knowledge and/or selfishness.

There are always going to be people motivated in this way, hell, the president of the US is one such, but most in society have already cottoned on that that is an unsustainable approach.

Self interest is not selfishness.
Greed is good.

Redgirl82

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Your argument amounts to "Trains good. Roads bad". It's a simplistic argument which has no basis in reality. Even the Greens accept road building is necessary to some extent. Rail is not suitable for connecting towns and villages in rural Ireland.

Using London as an example is a joke as well. London's dominance in England is a controversial issue. Those people spending 1-2 hours on a train everyday are not happy. No one sane can be happy with that. They also have to pay more and more every year to use a poor and overcrowded service.

Name me a town or place in Ireland currently not connected by a road?

We have connected everywhere with roads would you not agree?

Now would it not be worthwhile trying to connect place with trains?

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Name me a town or place in Ireland currently not connected by a road?

We have connected everywhere with roads would you not agree?

Now would it not be worthwhile trying to connect place with trains?

You keep moving the goalposts. Roads can't just be built and left alone. They need to be upgraded. The N20 is no longer fit for purpose which is why it will be upgraded to a motorway. We can't connect every town and village by train. It isn't feasible and we don't have the money for it. Upgrade the railways in areas where it is feasible.

Redgirl82

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

You keep moving the goalposts. Roads can't just be built and left alone. They need to be upgraded. The N20 is no longer fit for purpose which is why it will be upgraded to a motorway. We can't connect every town and village by train. It isn't feasible and we don't have the money for it. Upgrade the railways in areas where it is feasible.

I’m not moving the goalpost.

Ireland has plenty of roads and at this stage a new road is not going to increase our standard of living.

We have the money to build new roads but not new train connection?

We don’t need to connect every village in Ireland, for this round I would connect major one. So say Dublin, Navan, Cavan, Enniskillen, Donegal town, letterkenny

Then build house and populate these villages and remove the need for building up Dublin.

Next connection could smaller villages, like in Holland you have quick trains between the bigger towns and then slow trains connecting all the smaller towns/industrial estates to the fast lines.

efanton

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Name me a town or place in Ireland currently not connected by a road?

We have connected everywhere with roads would you not agree?

Now would it not be worthwhile trying to connect place with trains?

You made a good argument for upgrading some roads earlier when talking about Virgina.



Simple questions

How much would it cost to connect Virginia to a rail system?
How much would it cost to finish the M3 motorway?

How many people would use a rail link between Navan and Virginia?
How many vehicles would a motorway remove from the towns and villages that are on the N3 that the motorway has yet to bypass such as Virginia?

While you propose spending billions on a rail system that will not be used, because it still involves people having cars to commute to the rail stations, I would propose completing the motorway network and spending the money saved by not putting rail lines all over the country and spending it on something worthwhile such as replacing fossil fuel cars with electric cars , or replacing a peat or oil fuelled power station.

Do you not get the point?
The country only has so much to spend, lets spend it where we can get most bang for buck, where we can actually reduce our emissions and pollution by the greatest amount.

Introducing rail systems to rural Ireland will not get rid of the cars, because people will still need the cars to get to the rails stations.

Better to make our road network more efficient, and by pass the towns and villages on our national routes to reduce congestion and pollution (the cheapest most effective way to do that would be finish the motorway network) and replace fossil fuelled cars as soon as possible with electric vehicles and at the same time concentrate on the things that really do hurt the environment such as the peat and oil burning power stations with the money not wasted on a rail system that most people will never use.

Its not a perfect world and just because the Green dream up a perfect world does not mean it is at all possible.

Like I have constantly asked of all the Green supporters posting here, show me the costs? show me the estimates for how long these project will take to implement? show me that they actually will make a a beneficial difference?

If you can prove something is cost effective, will make a beneficial difference to the the people of this country and and can be achieved in a reasonable period of time then you have a cast iron argument that no one will disagree with.
But can you do that?

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

I’m not moving the goalpost.

Ireland has plenty of roads and at this stage a new road is not going to increase our standard of living.

We have the money to build new roads but not new train connection?

We don’t need to connect every village in Ireland, for this round I would connect major one. So say Dublin, Navan, Cavan, Enniskillen, Donegal town, letterkenny

Then build house and populate these villages and remove the need for building up Dublin.

Next connection could smaller villages, like in Holland you have quick trains between the bigger towns and then slow trains connecting all the smaller towns/industrial estates to the fast lines.

Yes, you are. Roads are cheaper to build than railways. Then you still have to buy all of the trains. Extending the line to Navan (and possibly Cavan) makes sense but we can't build lines in the North. The only viable rail connection to Letterkenny is from Derry and even that is difficult considering the layout in Derry. It would require a new bridge across the Foyle north of the city or a tunnel underneath the city. Good luck trying to get the British to fork out for that.

Redgirl82

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Yes, you are. Roads are cheaper to build than railways. Then you still have to buy all of the trains. Extending the line to Navan (and possibly Cavan) makes sense but we can't build lines in the North. The only viable rail connection to Letterkenny is from Derry and even that is difficult considering the layout in Derry. It would require a new bridge across the Foyle north of the city or a tunnel underneath the city. Good luck trying to get the British to fork out for that.

But we already have roads connecting everywhere, you are just talking of increasing the road size.

We have a huge problem in Ireland and it’s growing in terms of CO2, we are one of the few countries in the World without a proper train network. The rest of the world is moving more and more towards public transport and away from cars and your plan is to put another lane onto an existing road?

You seem to be missing the point. Roads are not a quick way to move a lot of people around, how many people currently travel from Cavan to Dublin, to the M3 parkway, this is reflected all over the outskirts of Dublin

How many people could travel if you put in a train? How many people could move from Dublin and live in towns like Navan etc. We have issue at the moment with housing but this is around Dublin, young people can’t buy houses in Dublin and don’t want to buy outside because they can’t get into Dublin.

Please explain how a road will fix? Has any road in Ireland fixed the issue with traffic? Or has it been built and by the time it is built it is already too small for the traffic

The road network is in place, let’s concentrate on the train network

Saying it costs too much it just not looking at bigger picture. How many billion in fines will Ireland pay? How much are we paying to put people in hotels? How much is it costing HAP to rent in Dublin at sky high rents? This could in reality be resolved by trains and moving the concentration out of city and also revive the towns that are dying as people move to the city. New business opening with new jobs

You don’t think it will work? Just look at very other country in the World. Yes they have cities that grow but they also have surround cities that grow and become commuter town via trains

Tell me how

ELM327 wrote: »

Self interest is not selfishness.
Greed is good.

Why?

efanton

Redgirl82 wrote: »

But we already have roads connecting everywhere, you are just talking of increasing the road size.

We have a huge problem in Ireland and it’s growing in terms of CO2, we are one of the few countries in the World without a proper train network. The rest of the world is moving more and more towards public transport and away from cars and your plan is to put another lane onto an existing road?

You seem to be missing the point. Roads are not a quick way to move a lot of people around, how many people currently travel from Cavan to Dublin, to the M3 parkway, this is reflected all over the outskirts of Dublin

How many people could travel if you put in a train? How many people could move from Dublin and live in towns like Navan etc. We have issue at the moment with housing but this is around Dublin, young people can’t buy houses in Dublin and don’t want to buy outside because they can’t get into Dublin.

Please explain how a road will fix? Has any road in Ireland fixed the issue with traffic? Or has it been built and by the time it is built it is already too small for the traffic

The road network is in place, let’s concentrate on the train network

Saying it costs too much it just not looking at bigger picture. How many billion in fines will Ireland pay? How much are we paying to put people in hotels? How much is it costing HAP to rent in Dublin at sky high rents? This could in reality be resolved by trains and moving the concentration out of city and also revive the towns that are dying as people move to the city. New business opening with new jobs

You don’t think it will work? Just look at very other country in the World. Yes they have cities that grow but they also have surround cities that grow and become commuter town via trains

We are a country with a very small population, that apart from Dublin is very spread out. You cannot compare Ireland with countries that have high density populations where rail systems are the perfect solution.

Saying it costs too much is exactly the right picture to have if it happens to be the truth and we have a limitied budget. We only have a certain amount of money to spend so it make sense to pick those projects that give us the most benefit.

Like I have said, you propose a rail project to me, tell me how much it will cost, show me that it is more cost effective than a motorway, show me that more people will use it, and estimate how long that project will take to complete and if you can do that then I simply cannot argue with you, in fact I would have to agreed with you because the facts speak for themselves.
But can you do that?

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

But we already have roads connecting everywhere, you are just talking of increasing the road size.

We have a huge problem in Ireland and it’s growing in terms of CO2, we are one of the few countries in the World without a proper train network. The rest of the world is moving more and more towards public transport and away from cars and your plan is to put another lane onto an existing road?

You seem to be missing the point. Roads are not a quick way to move a lot of people around, how many people currently travel from Cavan to Dublin, to the M3 parkway, this is reflected all over the outskirts of Dublin

How many people could travel if you put in a train? How many people could move from Dublin and live in towns like Navan etc. We have issue at the moment with housing but this is around Dublin, young people can’t buy houses in Dublin and don’t want to buy outside because they can’t get into Dublin.

Please explain how a road will fix? Has any road in Ireland fixed the issue with traffic? Or has it been built and by the time it is built it is already too small for the traffic

The road network is in place, let’s concentrate on the train network

Saying it costs too much it just not looking at bigger picture. How many billion in fines will Ireland pay? How much are we paying to put people in hotels? How much is it costing HAP to rent in Dublin at sky high rents? This could in reality be resolved by trains and moving the concentration out of city and also revive the towns that are dying as people move to the city. New business opening with new jobs

You don’t think it will work? Just look at very other country in the World. Yes they have cities that grow but they also have surround cities that grow and become commuter town via trains

I am talking of increasing the road size because it is necessary. You can't just build a road and leave it alone forever. The N56 was realigned to take out several bends between Kilmacrennan and Letterkenny to improve journey times and make the road safer. It was a good use of money. Ireland actually has a decent rail network for its size. Your plan does cost too much. That's a fact you'll just have to accept. Get back to me when the British approve the construction of a new railway bridge or tunnel in Derry.

end of the road

driving to a station to catch a train equals not driving all the way to destination, equals reduction of emissions.
electric cars are not going to eradicate or over all reduce emissions, what they will do is remove emmitions from the areas they travel and allow for a concentration of emissions around where the power stations are, but they are not going to over all reduce emissions.
motor ways are not the cheapist option no matter how much you claim otherwise. motor ways are expensive hence why they have only been built either between cities, or to large commuter towns, or where there is a high usage freight corridor, as in where there is the traffic to justify them.
rural ireland as a whole just does not justify motor ways, single carriage ways along with upgrades of regional roads, and yes some bypasses are enough for the traffic on offer.

also you cannot expect people to show you costs for things not even planned for, how are they going to give you information that isn't known because the projects haven't been planned and costed.

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Yes, you are. Roads are cheaper to build than railways. Then you still have to buy all of the trains.

again this is not always the case, it will depend on which of either is being built.

a bypass of a town will be cheaper then a hsr but a conventional railway vs a motor way is a very different beast.

Hawkeye9212

end of the road wrote: »

driving to a station to catch a train equals not driving all the way to destination, equals reduction of emissions.
electric cars are not going to eradicate or over all reduce emissions, what they will do is remove emmitions from the areas they travel and allow for a concentration of emissions around where the power stations are, but they are not going to over all reduce emissions.
motor ways are not the cheapist option no matter how much you claim otherwise. motor ways are expensive hence why they have only been built either between cities, or to large commuter towns, or where there is a high usage freight corridor, as in where there is the traffic to justify them.
rural ireland as a whole just does not justify motor ways, single carriage ways along with upgrades of regional roads, and yes some bypasses are enough for the traffic on offer.

also you cannot expect people to show you costs for things not even planned for, how are they going to give you information that isn't known because the projects haven't been planned and costed.




again this is not always the case, it will depend on which of either is being built.

a bypass of a town will be cheaper then a hsr but a conventional railway vs a motor way is a very different beast.

I've never called for a motorway in Donegal. I'm talking about single or dual carriageways. Most of the work (A5) has to be completed by the North but we do need investment to complete the Letterkenny bypass and upgrade the N14 to Lifford. A new railway line will cost a lot more than those projects.

end of the road

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I've never called for a motorway in Donegal. I'm talking about single or dual carriageways. Most of the work (A5) has to be completed by the North but we do need investment to complete the Letterkenny bypass and upgrade the N14 to Lifford. A new railway line will cost a lot more than those projects.

i know you didn't call for a motor way.
Donegal is a unique situation granted and personally sorting it and the areas around it is one of many reasons why i support reunification but that's for another thread.

Redgirl82

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I am talking of increasing the road size because it is necessary. You can't just build a road and leave it alone forever. The N56 was realigned to take out several bends between Kilmacrennan and Letterkenny to improve journey times and make the road safer. It was a good use of money. Ireland actually has a decent rail network for its size. Your plan does cost too much. That's a fact you'll just have to accept. Get back to me when the British approve the construction of a new railway bridge or tunnel in Derry.

What has the British got to do with anything?

You are talking about increasing the size of road because you don't seem to have any vision. More of the "sure we always done it that way"

How can anyone describe Ireland having a decent rail network? huge section of the country are not connected, travel from Limerick to Cork or to Galway is not possible. Seriously?

This is a decent network

end of the road

Redgirl82 wrote: »

What has the British got to do with anything?

You are talking about increasing the size of road because you don't seem to have any vision. More of the "sure we always done it that way"

How can anyone describe Ireland having a decent rail network? huge section of the country are not connected, travel from Limerick to Cork or to Galway is not possible. Seriously?

This is a decent network

you can travel by train directly from limerick to galway.

you can't travel directly from cork to limerick or cork to galway via a direct train granted, but you can do it with a change for cork to limerick, or 2 changes for cork to galway, which granted wouldn't be convenient.

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

What has the British got to do with anything?

You are talking about increasing the size of road because you don't seem to have any vision. More of the "sure we always done it that way"

How can anyone describe Ireland having a decent rail network? huge section of the country are not connected, travel from Limerick to Cork or to Galway is not possible. Seriously?

This is a decent network

Love how you complaining about people insulting you and then you go off and do the same thing. No vision? That's not it. I'm just being realistic unlike you.

Look at a map and tell me where Donegal is. Derry is in Northern Ireland. Most of the line could be rebuilt but we can't build any infrastructure on the other side of the border. Derry would require significant new infrastructure (a tunnel or new bridge) to connect the station on the Waterside to a line coming from Donegal. Most of the lines in Donegal were narrow gauge. They wouldn't be suitable anymore.

Travel to Cork and Galway from Limerick is possible by train.

efanton

end of the road wrote: »

driving to a station to catch a train equals not driving all the way to destination, equals reduction of emissions.
electric cars are not going to eradicate or over all reduce emissions, what they will do is remove emmitions from the areas they travel and allow for a concentration of emissions around where the power stations are, but they are not going to over all reduce emissions.

I think you are missing my the point I was making earlier.

Electric cars would dramatically reduce our emissions. of that there is no doubt. Where do they get their electricity from? well at the moment a lot of it comes from peat and oil fuelled power stations.

But you can build a motorway, put a scheme in place to speed up the process of replacing the fossil fuel cars, and probably replace one of those power stations (or at least go a long way towards that) so that any energy used by those vehicles on that motorway is provided by wind compared to the cost of a rail system. Where would those carbon emissions be coming from then?


Yes a motorway is the cheapest solution for the link between Limerick ad Cork.
At the moment its going to cost 1.2 billion and preliminary work has already started. No doubt if it is delayed yet again that cost will go up.
If that motorway does not go ahead then you are still looking at the government spending hundreds of thousand on the Charleville bypass, the Mallow bypass, and the Buttevant bypass along with the removal of dangerous bends that have cost the lives of far too many people that were put on hold because with a motorway these would not be require.

The new locomotives and the carriages they pull, will cost nearly half a billion and you havent laid any track yet or electrified the line.

You show me a estimate of the cost for a rails system that can replace the M20 and will carry a good proportion of the 18,000 people that use the N20 every days and I might believe you claims that rails systems are cheaper. Rail system have never been cheaper which is why every country on the planet has more roads that rails. Please dont make silly statements unless you can back that up.

As I have said before, you show me a viable rail plan that is costed, and will be used by a large majority of the people who commute up and down the N20 everyday and I would have no option but to accept the Green proposals that we should go with a rail system rather than a motorways. But the truth is none of you can?

So why haven't you or anyone else posted what the cost of laying track is, the cost of the trains and carriages, the cost of electrifying the line and the cost of providing either feeder busses so that people do not have to drive to rail stations or the the additional car parking that would be required?

I've been asking for a few days now for one single person to provide the costs, or the reports regarding Irish rail projects, and not one of you have managed to do it? It could only be reasonable to assume that this hasn't been posted because either you haven't got a clue about what you are talking about, or that it would prove your argument to be wrong.

So costs and reports please.
We know what the complete cost of the M20 will be if it is allowed to continue and that is 1.2 billion.
Beat that cost with a costed rail plan that will take the majority of the commuter traffic out of the towns and villages on the N20 and I and everyone else that says you are wrong would have no choice but to agree with you.
So prove me wrong,

Redgirl82

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

Love how you complaining about people insulting you and then you go off and do the same thing. No vision? That's not it. I'm just being realistic unlike you.

Look at a map and tell me where Donegal is. Derry is in Northern Ireland. Most of the line could be rebuilt but we can't build any infrastructure on the other side of the border. Derry would require significant new infrastructure (a tunnel or new bridge) to connect the station on the Waterside to a line coming from Donegal. Most of the lines in Donegal were narrow gauge. They wouldn't be suitable anymore.

Travel to Cork and Galway from Limerick is possible by train.

I asked a poster who insulted me and ranted due to their own error to apologise.

Seemed like basic manners to me. Seemingly not

Derry has nothing to do with Irish railway system

end of the road

efanton wrote: »

I think you are missing my the point I was making earlier.

Electric cars would dramatically reduce our emissions. of that there is no doubt. Where do they get their electricity from? well at the moment a lot of it comes from peat and oil fuelled power stations.

But you can build a motorway, put a scheme in place to speed up the process of replacing the fossil fuel cars, and probably replace one of those power stations (or at least go a long way towards that) so that any energy used by those vehicles on that motorway is provided by wind compared to the cost of a rail system. Where would those carbon emissions be coming from then?


Yes a motorway is the cheapest solution for the link between Limerick ad Cork.
At the moment its going to cost 1.2 billion and preliminary work has already started. No doubt if it is delayed yet again that cost will go up.
If that motorway does not go ahead then you are still looking at the government spending hundreds of thousand on the Charleville bypass, the Mallow bypass, and the Buttevant bypass along with the removal of dangerous bends that have cost the lives of far too many people that were put on hold because with a motorway these would not be require.

The new locomotives and the carriages they pull, will cost nearly half a billion and you havent laid any track yet or electrified the line.

You show me a estimate of the cost for a rails system that can replace the M20 and will carry a good proportion of the 18,000 people that use the N20 every days and I might believe you claims that rails systems are cheaper. Rail system have never been cheaper which is why every country on the planet has more roads that rails. Please dont make silly statements unless you can back that up.

As I have said before, you show me a viable rail plan that is costed, and will be used by a large majority of the people who commute up and down the N20 everyday and I would have no option but to accept the Green proposals that we should go with a rail system rather than a motorways. But the truth is none of you can?

So why haven't you or anyone else posted what the cost of laying track is, the cost of the trains and carriages, the cost of electrifying the line and the cost of providing either feeder busses so that people do not have to drive to rail stations or the the additional car parking that would be required?

I've been asking for a few days now for one single person to provide the costs, or the reports regarding Irish rail projects, and not one of you have managed to do it? It could only be reasonable to assume that this hasn't been posted because either you haven't got a clue about what you are talking about, or that it would prove your argument to be wrong.

So costs and reports please.
We know what the complete cost of the M20 will be if it is allowed to continue and that is 1.2 billion.
Beat that cost with a costed rail plan that will take the majority of the commuter traffic out of the towns and villages on the N20 and I and everyone else that says you are wrong would have no choice but to agree with you.
So prove me wrong,

1 power station and 1 motor way compared to the cost of a rail system? yeah, sure.
a motor way and power station compared to a single rail line in the same area? not so sure on that one.
wind farms aren't exactly cheap either and wind can only be a small part of the sollution.
you are going to need to provide a base load from somewhere, so that will mean either continuing with fuel of some sort or nuclear which at the moment would be hugely unjustifiable in terms of cost unless we just import and rely on someone else which brings it's own issues including insecurity.

there is nothing to show a motor way would be the cheapest solution for a link between cork and limerick apart from what i can see, wishful thinking.
1.2billion for the motor way, probably a few hundred million for the railway going on the costs of reopening galway to limerick but including the fact a cork to limerick line would be a new line in part depending on what would be built.
both options are going to have to be implemented, the reality is it will not be avoidable.
it will be multiple unit trains that would be procured, and not locomotives and carrages, and even at a half a billion if it is what it would cost, which we cannot say given we don't know how many trains would be bought or the cost of those trains, or even as to whether they may even be part of a future biggger order, the capacity they would provide would still be a hell of a lot more then a motor way taking mostly single occupent cars could ever provide, at the cost of 1.2 billion.
every country has more road then rail because it allows for a greater movement of small loads around the place, not because it is cheaper. roads are quite rightly recognised as a vital part of the countries infrastructure as is rail.
we haven't provided the costs you are looking for because to do so would require all of the plans and information available and relevant costs of such, which do not exist so are unknown.
we cannot tell you the costs of laying track in the future, we cannot provide you the costs of trains that don't exist, because by the time any cork to limerick rail line would be built, existing train platforms would be out of date. we cannot provide you the costs of electrifying a line that doesn't exist.
what we can tell you, is that it is unlikely the new trains would add up to a half a billion, unless somehow it was a big order to be shared out, for which it would have to be bought anyway.
what we can also tell you is that the whole dart expansion which is electrification, depots and new trains and upgraded signalling, will cost around 2 billion, and that is for 3 lines.
so, if we take 1 line including land purchase as there will be a part new line i would think, at least half a billion, at most probably around the same as the motor way which will be needed anyway.
you won't require depots for a cork to limerick line as both cities already have depots, limerick being the main one. i would expect also that trains would come from whatever existing fleet that would be operational at the time.

Hawkeye9212

Redgirl82 wrote: »

I asked a poster who insulted me and ranted due to their own error to apologise.

Seemed like basic manners to me. Seemingly not

Derry has nothing to do with Irish railway system

Yes, it does. Connecting Derry with Donegal is the only way to make a railway in the region viable.

Tell me how

Whatever about the physical structure of a railroad, it is still a long way from being viable.
They are most efficient when run at near capacity as much of the time as possible.
How likely would this be the case in some smaller towns and villages.

There is a railway between Nenagh and Limerick, it is virtually unused by commuters in to limerick because of the time it gets to Colbert station in the city.
Just how frequent would a train to/from towns like this would it have to be in order to make people consider it as a viable alternative to cars and then what would the likely capacity be on each journey?

We need to look at the shorter journeys such as those under 2Km and where possible move those away from the private motor vehicle by which they are currently made.

Examiner Article

From that article.

The average journey distance was 14.6km and on average took 22.7 minutes to complete.

We should optimise the resources we currently have through minimising the total number of cars and have people walk, cycle, use public transport as a primary focus but building a national railway network for a population as small and disparate as ours at this point is just not feasible.

efanton

end of the road wrote: »

1 power station and 1 motor way compared to the cost of a rail system? yeah, sure.
a motor way and power station compared to a single rail line in the same area? not so sure on that one.
wind farms aren't exactly cheap either and wind can only be a small part of the sollution.
you are going to need to provide a base load from somewhere, so that will mean either continuing with fuel of some sort or nuclear which at the moment would be hugely unjustifiable in terms of cost unless we just import and rely on someone else which brings it's own issues including insecurity.

there is nothing to show a motor way would be the cheapest solution for a link between cork and limerick apart from what i can see, wishful thinking.
1.2billion for the motor way, probably a few hundred million for the railway going on the costs of reopening galway to limerick but including the fact a cork to limerick line would be a new line in part depending on what would be built.
both options are going to have to be implemented, the reality is it will not be avoidable.
it will be multiple unit trains that would be procured, and not locomotives and carrages, and even at a half a billion if it is what it would cost, which we cannot say given we don't know how many trains would be bought or the cost of those trains, or even as to whether they may even be part of a future biggger order, the capacity they would provide would still be a hell of a lot more then a motor way taking mostly single occupent cars could ever provide, at the cost of 1.2 billion.
every country has more road then rail because it allows for a greater movement of small loads around the place, not because it is cheaper. roads are quite rightly recognised as a vital part of the countries infrastructure as is rail.
we haven't provided the costs you are looking for because to do so would require all of the plans and information available and relevant costs of such, which do not exist so are unknown.
we cannot tell you the costs of laying track in the future, we cannot provide you the costs of trains that don't exist, because by the time any cork to limerick rail line would be built, existing train platforms would be out of date. we cannot provide you the costs of electrifying a line that doesn't exist.
what we can tell you, is that it is unlikely the new trains would add up to a half a billion, unless somehow it was a big order to be shared out, for which it would have to be bought anyway.
what we can also tell you is that the whole dart expansion which is electrification, depots and new trains and upgraded signalling, will cost around 2 billion, and that is for 3 lines.
so, if we take 1 line including land purchase as there will be a part new line i would think, at least half a billion, at most probably around the same as the motor way which will be needed anyway.
you won't require depots for a cork to limerick line as both cities already have depots, limerick being the main one. i would expect also that trains would come from whatever existing fleet that would be operational at the time.

Again denying things you know nothing about.

Google works for you just as easy as it does for me. The difference is before shooting my mouth of I try to verify what am saying. I remember researching this whole topic quite extensively a year or so ago.

nvestment in New Trains
Iarnród Éireann is progressing two major fleet orders, to cater for growing demand, and for the expansion in rail services planned under the National Development Plan 2018-2027, part of Project Ireland 2040. These projects are:

41 new railcar carriages
In October 2019, the Government approved an order for 41 new railcar carriages. These will be additional 22000-class railcar carriages bringing the overall size of this fleet to 275 carriages.

This represents an investment of €150 million, and the new carriages will enter service in the Greater Dublin Area from late 2021, providing an overall increase in peak Commuter capacity of 34% on routes where they will be deployed. These carriages will benefit:

https://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/fleet-investment

So its currently costing Irish rail €150 million for 41 ordinary non powered carriages. That's a whopping 3.65 million per carriage.

Irish rail previously bought second hand diesel locomotives to pull these carriages but declined to reveal the cost. They did however admit to spending 80 million referbishing them and converting them to the Irish rail gauge (Ireland's tracks are set apart a different distance to most countries).




Irish rail looked into electrifying the rail lines as far a Drogheda and the cost was absolutely horrendous.

Instead they then looked at electric/battery carriages. Basically these are commuter carriages that can draw power from overhead lines like the Dart trains, but also have massive battery banks so that they can continue to run on electricity when there are no overhead lines available.

Even with this cost reduction measure it is still going to cost Irish Rail €2 billion to extend the dart commuter service out to Drogheda (thats just an extra 30 miles) using these electric/battery carriages. although part of this cost is to replace carriages elsewhere. These trains will be no faster that the Dart service, certainty no where near as fast as the inter city train we have going between our cities.

By Northern Europe’s high standards, Ireland’s rail system is a little behind the times, and it wants to catch up fast. The only part powered fully by overhead electric cables is DART (Dublin Area Rapid Transit), the commuter rail system that serves the capital region. That in itself represents no small portion of the country’s rail traffic: DART contains nearly a quarter of the total Irish rail fleet (144 carriages out of 629 running nationally). Thanks to a €2 billion injection from the national government, this fully electrified network will be extended further out into the Irish capital’s hinterland—out as far as Drogheda, 30 miles to the north—with 300 new trains commissioned to serve the expanded network.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/06/ireland-train-travel-battery-powered-tech-dublin-transit/591007/

So yes rail systems are expensive, really expensive. There you have a few examples of Irish Rail having to spend Billions, without even laying a bit of track or electrifying a single stretch of rail line.
D you still want to put new rail systems into rural Ireland?






(this is a very long and detail read, but if you want to see how expensive and complicated it is to run a rails service in Ireland its worth the read. It the 2016 Rail review report.)
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/151116_2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

I think you are missing my the point I was making earlier.

Electric cars would dramatically reduce our emissions. of that there is no doubt. Where do they get their electricity from? well at the moment a lot of it comes from peat and oil fuelled power stations.

But you can build a motorway, put a scheme in place to speed up the process of replacing the fossil fuel cars, and probably replace one of those power stations (or at least go a long way towards that) so that any energy used by those vehicles on that motorway is provided by wind compared to the cost of a rail system. Where would those carbon emissions be coming from then?


Yes a motorway is the cheapest solution for the link between Limerick ad Cork.
At the moment its going to cost 1.2 billion and preliminary work has already started. No doubt if it is delayed yet again that cost will go up.
If that motorway does not go ahead then you are still looking at the government spending hundreds of thousand on the Charleville bypass, the Mallow bypass, and the Buttevant bypass along with the removal of dangerous bends that have cost the lives of far too many people that were put on hold because with a motorway these would not be require.

The new locomotives and the carriages they pull, will cost nearly half a billion and you havent laid any track yet or electrified the line.

You show me a estimate of the cost for a rails system that can replace the M20 and will carry a good proportion of the 18,000 people that use the N20 every days and I might believe you claims that rails systems are cheaper. Rail system have never been cheaper which is why every country on the planet has more roads that rails. Please dont make silly statements unless you can back that up.

As I have said before, you show me a viable rail plan that is costed, and will be used by a large majority of the people who commute up and down the N20 everyday and I would have no option but to accept the Green proposals that we should go with a rail system rather than a motorways. But the truth is none of you can?

So why haven't you or anyone else posted what the cost of laying track is, the cost of the trains and carriages, the cost of electrifying the line and the cost of providing either feeder busses so that people do not have to drive to rail stations or the the additional car parking that would be required?

I've been asking for a few days now for one single person to provide the costs, or the reports regarding Irish rail projects, and not one of you have managed to do it? It could only be reasonable to assume that this hasn't been posted because either you haven't got a clue about what you are talking about, or that it would prove your argument to be wrong.

So costs and reports please.
We know what the complete cost of the M20 will be if it is allowed to continue and that is 1.2 billion.
Beat that cost with a costed rail plan that will take the majority of the commuter traffic out of the towns and villages on the N20 and I and everyone else that says you are wrong would have no choice but to agree with you.
So prove me wrong,

How many billion is Ireland going to get in fines?

How is a new road helping in reducing those fines?

efanton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many billion is Ireland going to get in fines?

How is a new road helping in reducing those fines?

FG were warned about missing targets in the Dail more that 8 years ago, and this issue was raised by many parties in the Dail.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irelands-cynical-approach-on-climate-change-criticised-369126.html

Enda Kenny even refused to believe targets were necessary and kicked the can down the road claiming the economy was more important. Of course that resulted in the country having to now take more drastic action in order to meet targets that were set nearly ten years ago that and could have been easily achievable had we actually done something constructive then rather than wait until the last minute as we are doing now.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eu-emissions-targets-unrealistic-for-ireland-kenny-says-1.2449086


During the Irish Water debacle, rather than invest money actually fixing broken pipes, eliminating raw sewage being released from out of date and ill maintained treatment plants as demanded by opposition parties, the government instead decided it would be far better to install water meters, which never fixed a thing.

While opposition parties were raising the issue of future fines, FG were refusing to commit any additional funding to tackle the issue. In Fact the climate bill so talked about by FG took years to actually pass through the Dail. By then we were already on course to miss our targets by a wide margin.

The recent climate bill was yet again deliberately delayed by FG
https://www.thejournal.ie/bruton-letter-blocking-climate-emergency-bill-4712252-Jul2019/


So are we going to face fines, the answer to that is a definite yes and there is nothing we can do about it because instead of taking action when the Kyoto and EU targets were set nearly a decade ago FG governments constantly kicked the can down the road and did nothing.


My argument is not that a road will solve our climate problems, any more than getting rid of one power station will solve it, or building one rail line will either.
But Ireland currently has a very limited amount of money to spend, and with covid this is likely to be less, so we should be targeting those projects that give the best environmental return on our investment. Better to complete many smaller or cheaper projects that one or two expensive ones.

Building more rail lines in rural Ireland is not the way to do it in my opinion. They are horrendously expensive, and will take many years to be implemented. If a project has not been fully implemented its hardly of any benefit to the climate or going to actually help us meet our targets is it, and before those EU fines are issued?

Lets tackle the easy targets that cost little money first and have already been planned for and are ready to go, and can be completed in a relatively short time.
Then gradually move down the list tackling the more expensive one or ones that will take longer to complete in the order of which project gives us best bang for buck and can be completed in the shortest time frames.

Thelonious Monk

Even if we had excellent rail links between the main cities in Ireland, and the Metro finished in Dublin, connecting to the airport etc, and Dart underground, we would have a far better nationwide transport system and it would trickle down into the whole country. People wouldn't have to drive to Dublin to do everything, they could take a train, they could get to the airport easier etc.
I don't know why the hell we don't have any vision in this country, we are wealthy, or at least we were before Covid, and have the worst transport system in Western Europe, or anywhere in Europe that I can think of. Where's the leadership on these things, where's the ambition?
I doubt we'll see any changes in my lifetime, just more roads and more cars, EVs or not it doesn't matter, still congestion and constant building of roads.

PommieBast

Tell me how wrote: »

This is a perfectly summation of the issue with making meaningful progress on climate action.

Some people are consumed with their selfish needs irrespective of the logic around them.

In that case make public transport bearable. Bus drivers doing no-shows and feral kids making life a misery would be the first things to fix.

Thelonious Monk

PommieBast wrote: »

In that case make public transport bearable. Bus drivers doing no-shows and feral kids making life a misery would be the first things to fix.

Feral kids in Dublin anyway, can be an issue everywhere, not just on public transport.

Bass Reeves

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Even if we had excellent rail links between the main cities in Ireland, and the Metro finished in Dublin, connecting to the airport etc, and Dart underground, we would have a far better nationwide transport system and it would trickle down into the whole country. People wouldn't have to drive to Dublin to do everything, they could take a train, they could get to the airport easier etc.
I don't know why the hell we don't have any vision in this country, we are wealthy, or at least we were before Covid, and have the worst transport system in Western Europe, or anywhere in Europe that I can think of. Where's the leadership on these things, where's the ambition?
I doubt we'll see any changes in my lifetime, just more roads and more cars, EVs or not it doesn't matter, still congestion and constant building of roads.

You do not have to drive to Dublin at present to get to the airport. Busses go direct from most major Townes and cities. Thousands commute this way. However it often a Hobson's choice. Unless you can get a lift to and from the bus (and you will have the same issues with trains) it often as easy to drive to the Airport and park there.

For those travelling on busses, trains may not be a better option. In general train fares are way higher than bus fares the bus is one direct journey and there is a much better choice on the bus timetable. The only people that will be delighted with the trains are those on free travel passes.