Green Party wish list.

Mad_maxx

Tell me how wrote: »

In 2016, a FG led government signed Ireland up as signatories to the Paris Agreement. The commitment we made in doing so and the action of the FG led (FF supported) government since then means that we must now achieve a minimum of 7%/annum savings in the amount of CO2 we produce.

Everyone is ripping on the greens like this is some left field hair brained idea that they pulled from nowhere.

What actions do you guys think should be enacted to bring about meaningful change in Ireland?

encourage farmers to plant their farms in trees and get rid of their cattle , currently a farmer can only claim subsidies on trees for fifteen years , increase it to the growing life of the trees

agriculture should not be spared as its the biggest offender but you need carrot too

dairy farming can be left alone , it pays for itself too unlike beef farming

Hawkeye9212

Tell me how wrote: »

• 50% of all journeys under 2Km in Ireland are taken using the car. Maybe an increased cost in fuel will force people to think about whether it is the best option to use.
• If the population, generally, is up in arms about fuel cost, the government should react by improving the availability and experience of public transport.
• It may force people to think more about whether the large, inefficient, engine is the best way to go or whether they might be better off with something smaller.

So, as you say, everyone is agreed on the fact that we need to reduce emissions, how do you think we should do it?
And how are FF, FG advocating that we do it?

I presume the increase is only going to be levied on people living in cities.

Tell me how

Hawkeye9212 wrote: »

I presume the increase is only going to be levied on people living in cities.

Do people living outside cities not take journeys under 2km?
Could they not manage with smaller, more efficient vehicles?

combat14

recyclebin wrote: »

They are looking at adding €20 on a tank of diesel through increased carbon taxes! They can do one. People can't afford to buy new electric or hybrid cars so this is just another stealth tax. They will be wiped out in next election if more this sh1t makes into the program for government.

just seen this .. absolutely outrageous.. amounts to 33% extra to drive car or about 100 euro extra a month (net of taxes)
I'm sure it will cost other country people even more ..

how can the FF / FG party agree to this ..

its effectively a green two fingers to anyone living outside dublin

is eamon ryan going to buy us all 45000 euro Volkswagen electric cars ?!?!!

Hawkeye9212

Tell me how wrote: »

Do people living outside cities not take journeys under 2km?
Could they not manage with smaller, more efficient vehicles?

They have to use a car to make those journeys. Is the Government going to step in and provide the money for people to buy new cars? I don't think they will. This will go down very well.

efanton

Tell me how wrote: »

• 50% of all journeys under 2Km in Ireland are taken using the car. Maybe an increased cost in fuel will force people to think about whether it is the best option to use.
• If the population, generally, is up in arms about fuel cost, the government should react by improving the availability and experience of public transport.
• It may force people to think more about whether the large, inefficient, engine is the best way to go or whether they might be better off with something smaller.

So, as you say, everyone is agreed on the fact that we need to reduce emissions, how do you think we should do it?
And how are FF, FG advocating that we do it?

It is the case that 50% or more of journeys are done using cars.

Did it ever occur to you that more than 50% of the country has no access whatsoever to public transport?

What are people supposed to think? will they walk 2km to a school in the pissing rain with kids, then walk home to collect the car so that I can then commute to their place of work because their town or village does not have public transport?

Those statistics are totally meaningless when a viable public transport alternative is not available.

So the Greens solution is to penalise those that do not have any access to public transport and cannot afford to replace their car with an electric vehicle.
Seriously do you realise how stupid that sounds?

Why not instead of penalising people who cannot afford a new car, help them to buy a new car. Would it not be better for instance to reduce the VRT and VAT on electric vehicles instead?
Surely the quicker people are able to switch to a electric vehicle the quicker we can reduce our emissions. Taxing people does not solve the issue, in fact it only extend the time it will take to replace fossil fuelled cars with electric ones.

combat14

and to cap it all off eamon says the extra green taxes can be given to fund social welfare!!

dmakc

Mad_maxx wrote: »

encourage farmers to plant their farms in trees and get rid of their cattle , currently a farmer can only claim subsidies on trees for fifteen years , increase it to the growing life of the trees

agriculture should not be spared as its the biggest offender but you need carrot too

dairy farming can be left alone , it pays for itself too unlike beef farming

"The biggest offender" in comparison to whom? Think you're mistaking our agriculture for Brazilian agriculture. As for tree planting (i.e. putting a daunting physical canopy on communities - read up on Leitrim) you may as well ask them to sell their land for 1/10th of its worth, good luck with that.

Tell me how

efanton wrote: »

It is the case that 50% or more of journeys are done using cars.

Did it ever occur to you that more than 50% of the country has no access whatsoever to public transport?

What are people supposed to think? will they walk 2km to a school in the pissing rain with kids, then walk home to collect the car so that I can then commute to their place of work because their town or village does not have public transport?

Those statistics are totally meaningless when a viable public transport alternative is not available.

So the Greens solution is to penalise those that do not have any access to public transport and cannot afford to replace their car with an electric vehicle.
Seriously do you realise how stupid that sounds?

Why not instead of penalising people who cannot afford a new car, help them to buy a new car. Would it not be better for instance to reduce the VRT and VAT on electric vehicles instead?
Surely the quicker people are able to switch to a electric vehicle the quicker we can reduce our emissions. Taxing people does not solve the issue, in fact it only extend the time it will take to replace fossil fuelled cars with electric ones.

I'm not at all sure that it is as simple as what you outlined in bold.

I had asked you two questions.

1 - What you would advise we do, as a country, to achieve 7% savings in emissions?
2 - What are FF/FG advising we do to achieve the savings they signed us up to achieving?

Bass Reeves

efanton wrote: »

It is the case that 50% or more of journeys are done using cars.

Did it ever occur to you that more than 50% of the country has no access whatsoever to public transport?

What are people supposed to think? will they walk 2km to a school in the pissing rain with kids, then walk home to collect the car so that I can then commute to their place of work because their town or village does not have public transport?

Those statistics are totally meaningless when a viable public transport alternative is not available.

So the Greens solution is to penalise those that do not have any access to public transport and cannot afford to replace their car with an electric vehicle.
Seriously do you realise how stupid that sounds?

Why not instead of penalising people who cannot afford a new car, help them to buy a new car. Would it not be better for instance to reduce the VRT and VAT on electric vehicles instead?
Surely the quicker people are able to switch to a electric vehicle the quicker we can reduce our emissions. Taxing people does not solve the issue, in fact it only extend the time it will take to replace fossil fuelled cars with electric ones.

That is not a fact written in stone. 50% of a cars emissions are in the physical car itself, the other 50% are in the fuel and repairs it uses in its lifetime. Now Ireland would not be average as we tend to put higher mileage on vars than some other countries. Electric cars actually may have physically more carbon in there manufacture than a diesel and is dependent on journey time to reduce there average emissions.

The greens plan is just another tax on working people. Even there public transport ideals are in tatters. If you want people to use public transport it has to be frequent, 24/7 and it must be as fast as using your car. The idealogical policy of wanting rail transport is a drag on the PT system. Rail is grand around Dublin but is questionable around the rest of the country. This was proven by the intercity bus routes. As well buses, trains are not able often to deliver people from near there homes directly to work, this is possible with buses if all PT was directed towards it in area's outside Dublin. But the flawed reasoning that because trains are more carbon friendly if full of passengers is a drain on the funding of the PT system

Galwayguy35

recyclebin wrote: »

They are looking at adding €20 on a tank of diesel through increased carbon taxes! They can do one. People can't afford to buy new electric or hybrid cars so this is just another stealth tax. They will be wiped out in next election if more this sh1t makes into the program for government.

Fook the greens, hope they get wiped out in the next election.

People doing long commutes need a diesel car, I have to travel 50km to work and back again in the evening.

Shefwedfan

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Fook the greens, hope they get wiped out in the next election.

People doing long commutes need a diesel car, I have to travel 50km to work and back again in the evening.

50km is not a long commute

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

I think everyone and every political party is agreed that we need to reduce our carbon emissions.

But how is reducing a persons disposable income through carbon taxes going to help them buy a new car?

Carbon taxes are a very poor way of persuading people to switch Most people dont need persuading, if they had the money they would be switching to electric cars already.

For the wealthy an increase in the cost of filling their tank is not going to get them to get rid of their high performance cars. For the poor who are reduced to running a 10+ yer old car because that's all they can afford all you are doing is increasing the time it will take for them to replace their car.

Explain to me how dramatically increasing the taxes on fuel is going to actually have an effect on those that simply do not care about the environment, or those who simply cannot afford to switch to an electric vehicle.

10 years now the government has given grants for electric, hybrid car Free charger installations. Free fuel on public network. Cheaper tolls etc ect etc


Unfortunatly the Irish people ignored all of this. The rest of the world moved away from diesel. The UK moved away from diesel and they found a lovely dumping ground for all these cars in Ireland. Look at the motors forums for plenty of examples.


My 70+ year old parents seen this coming, they live in the middle of nowhere and drive an electric car and dumped the diesel. Loads of others have as well.


At this stage the onlky way to get the Irish people to do anything is tax them, incentives dont seem to work



No matter which party was brought in they would of had to implement these policies. Blaming the greens to be honest is idiotic. Who are you going to blame with Ireland gets hit with billions in fines?

Galwayguy35

Shefwedfan wrote: »

50km is not a long commute

Nobody cares what you think.

Tell me how

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Fook the greens, hope they get wiped out in the next election.

People doing long commutes need a diesel car, I have to travel 50km to work and back again in the evening.

So, do you think the Paris agreement is necessary or not?

If yes, how do you think Ireland should achieve its commitments?

Beechwoodspark

As a green supporter this deal looks promising but I’ll wait for the details. I’m hoping there’s an aviation tax for example so that “on a whim” flights are consigned to history

Bass Reeves

Shefwedfan wrote: »

50km is not a long commute

50km each way is 25k kilometres a year add in social driving and you are above 30+k each year. Average mikege on a car is about18-20k/year. Pre COVID fuel costs would be about 50-60euro/week if in a fuel efficient diesel. Greens will take his fuel costs to 70-80/week

efanton

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not at all sure that it is as simple as what you outlined in bold.

I had asked you two questions.

1 - What you would advise we do, as a country, to achieve 7% savings in emissions?
2 - What are FF/FG advising we do to achieve the savings they signed us up to achieving?

Quite simple really.

the first thing I would do is ditch the 7% hard limit.
Why, because we should be aiming at the highest ACHIEVABLE reduction in carbon emissions. In some years that could be well above 7%, others slightly less while we play catch up.

Change planning laws so that all buildings are more environmentally friendly (insulation, less electricity usage, materials used, possibly mandatory solar panels etc) and all new roads (housing estates included) having bicycle lanes physically separated from the traffic. This would take a number of years to have a significant effect but a simply act of changing the law costs nothing.


If you are going to introduce an sort of penalty for using a fossil fuelled vehicle every cent of that should be redirected in reducing the cost of more environmentally friendly vehicles. Reducing the VAT and VRT on electric vehicles is the way to speed up the removal of fossil fuelled cars.

I would continue to improve the public transport in the cities and very large towns.

For the rest of the country I would build an extensive motorways network.
Shorter and quicker journeys on motorways, result in less fuel being burnt, less emissions per journey, less pollution in our towns and villages, and enables bulk transport in areas where it currently is not feasible.

instead of telling farmers that they need to cull their herds, I would encourage them to provide sites for wind farms or indeed be allowed to erect their own small scale wind farms and sell their surplus electricity to the grid. What you could have is a sort of offset program where farmer could offset their carbon emissions by contributing clean electricity or planting some of their land with trees.
Culling herds is not an option, not only will you put many farmers in a situation where their farm is no longer a viable business, but you put at risk all the processing plants and businesses that rely on that agricultural output. Along with that the country would loose thousands of jobs.

I would remove VAT on solar panels and allow those that erect them to be able to feed any surplus they produce back to the national grid and be paid for that energy.


Public transport in rural areas is unlikely to be either achievable or workable.
It will be unachievable for two reasons The sheer cost to provide a service for every town is beyond what this country could afford, even if we were putting 20% of all government revenue into it and cutting all other public services back to the bone. The time it would take to put in the infrastructure and the services would take decades, by which point technology will have improved and the only vehicles available (cars, lorries and busses too), will be environmentally friendly anyhow.

It will also be unworkable because if you have a bus or rail services that covers every town and the routes between them, many are going to be empty for most of the day. Instead of reducing carbon emissions you are going to increase them with these vehicles running every hour of the day half empty at best.

The cost of running a public transport fleet that for most of the times is half empty will mean that fares will be high. If fares are high then people will still find it cheaper to use their cars even if the petrol or diesel is much more expensive. The alternative is that this will have to be heavily subsidised by the state. If you are spending tens of millions subsiding public transport that is for the most part empty, don't you think it would be better to use that money instead in reducing the cost of electric vehicles?

Bus Eireann charge nearly €10 for a return trip from Charleville to Cork for example. the cost of fuel for a car for the same journey is much the same.
in 2018 Bus Eireann made a profit, for the first time in many years. They did that by reducing the services that were least used.

If Bus Eireann is forced to provide services between most towns and villages they will return to being a massive loss making service. There are only two choices if this happens the state heavily subsides these public transport routes, or increases the fares which will only encourage people to use personal transport instead of public transport. That would be millions upon millions of euro being wasted on providing a public transport service that not enough use.

Personally I would sooner see that money used to replace out fossil fuel powered electric generation stations by building additional wind farms or hydro power stations. Or insulating homes and businesses, putting filters on industrial chimneys. reducing the obscene amount of packaging that there is with many goods.


You see instead of carbon taxes and penalising people for using something they currently have no choice but to use, I would instead spend all the money that would be wasted on public transport in rural areas in actually reducing carbon emissions in a practical and viable way.
If a electric car is going to cost less than a diesel or petrol car, which car will people buy?
If you can reduce the cost of electric vehicles by using the money that would be wasted on public transport in rural areas to dramatically speed up
the elimination of fossil fuelled vehicles why would you need a public transport system in rural areas in the first place?

Tell me how

efanton wrote: »

Quite simple really.

Well, first off, I don't see how abolishing the 7% target would achieve anything other than allowing governments to apply token gestures which they point to as their commitment to the cause.

Second, the idea that an extensive network of motorways would be beneficial in the long run is not realistic. It will encourage private vehicle use which cannot be taken door to door efficiently. Getting 1000 cars to the edge of a city quicker is not advantageous when those 1000 cars spend longer edging their way through the final 3km to their destinations.

Given the amount people spend on their cars as a percentage of their income, people should be dying for an alternative mode of transport.

A more suitable public transport fleet would not be empty half the time if it met the needs of the population. Personally, I would advocate for cycling options as first and foremost to get people out of their cars for the short journeys while recognizing that not all journeys can not be made on bike.

As others have pointed out, electric vehicles are not absolutely clean and it is not an attractive solution that we focus on them above suitable alternatives.

But, all that being said, I take it from your post that you agree that change is needed and as a consequence I would hope that instead of shooting down green suggestions, you would suggest they tweak them to achieve the optimum goals.
Some people genuinely don't give a sh*t about any conservation of the environment and to have people who agree it is needed but differ on exactly how railing on those trying to bring about change is making it easy for those who don't care to get their way of nothing really changing.

feargale

recyclebin wrote: »

They are looking at adding €20 on a tank of diesel through increased carbon taxes! They can do one. People can't afford to buy new electric or hybrid cars so this is just another stealth tax. They will be wiped out in next election if more this sh1t makes into the program for government.

We could all be wiped out a few elections down the road.

Eric Cartman

so the greens deal to go into government is basically give those who do nothing more free houses, give people in Dublin more tools to cycle and the rest of the country has to put up with increased costs and taxes to pay for it all.

They should rename themselves the M50 party, since none of their policies help anyone outside of it.

Mad_maxx

dmakc wrote: »

"The biggest offender" in comparison to whom? Think you're mistaking our agriculture for Brazilian agriculture. As for tree planting (i.e. putting a daunting physical canopy on communities - read up on Leitrim) you may as well ask them to sell their land for 1/10th of its worth, good luck with that.

agriculture is the biggest contributor to carbon emissions full stop in this country

i dont know what you mean by 1/10th of what its worth ?

if farmers want to sell their land , they can , im not suggesting current farmers have to plant , they could sell instead and whoever buys could plant , beef farming should be phased out however for the most part ,we can get all the steaks we need from the dairy herd

beef farming requires tax payer subsidisation in this country , why not instead just subsidise forestry but for the entire duration the trees takes to grow ?

Eric Cartman

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, first off, I don't see how abolishing the 7% target would achieve anything other than allowing governments to apply token gestures which they point to as their commitment to the cause.

Second, the idea that an extensive network of motorways would be beneficial in the long run is not realistic. It will encourage private vehicle use which cannot be taken door to door efficiently. Getting 1000 cars to the edge of a city quicker is not advantageous when those 1000 cars spend longer edging their way through the final 3km to their destinations.

Given the amount people spend on their cars as a percentage of their income, people should be dying for an alternative mode of transport.

A more suitable public transport fleet would not be empty half the time if it met the needs of the population. Personally, I would advocate for cycling options as first and foremost to get people out of their cars for the short journeys while recognizing that not all journeys can not be made on bike.

As others have pointed out, electric vehicles are not absolutely clean and it is not an attractive solution that we focus on them above suitable alternatives.

But, all that being said, I take it from your post that you agree that change is needed and as a consequence I would hope that instead of shooting down green suggestions, you would suggest they tweak them to achieve the optimum goals.
Some people genuinely don't give a sh*t about any conservation of the environment and to have people who agree it is needed but differ on exactly how railing on those trying to bring about change is making it easy for those who don't care to get their way of nothing really changing.

average dual income households now are forced to buy housing on average 25km outside Dublin City. Most of these locations are served by 1 private bus operator or not at all. Even places like drogheda, newbridge and Gorey are pricing out average families now.

These people have no other method of getting to work in Dublin than a car. Places like the M3 parkway park and ride or the red cow luas help, but are not a feasible solution. Those people are now going to be taxed even more for not taking an option they don't have. Its just such a Green Party answer to the problem 'if we increase tax maybe a lad living in dundrum will take the luas to work' and not a thought paid for the guy who could only afford a house in summerhill, meath.

an improved motorway network doesn't encourage private car use to the city, it enabled businesses to relocate outside the city, minimising the average workers commute. It enables faster deliveries to businesses outside the city and allows people to save money and emissions not sitting in traffic or crawling through villages.

ExMachina1000

Hopefully an aviation tax is introduced. The cost is too cheap.

It allows low paid people reward themselves and their young families with a foreign holidays . This also creates tourism jobs in destination countries which in turn generates tax to run a country and fund its social programs.

Flying and foreign holidays should only be for the wealthy.

Shefwedfan

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Nobody cares what you think.

Maybe, still doesn’t change the fact 50km is not a long commute

Galwayguy35

Tell me how wrote: »

So, do you think the Paris agreement is necessary or not?

If yes, how do you think Ireland should achieve its commitments?

I don't know I'm not a politician.

What I do know is I am a person who like many others works and pays taxes so if I'm hit with extra penalties just for the type of car I drive I won't be happy.

Let The USA, China and India get their house in order first.

Shefwedfan

Bass Reeves wrote: »

50km each way is 25k kilometres a year add in social driving and you are above 30+k each year. Average mikege on a car is about18-20k/year. Pre COVID fuel costs would be about 50-60euro/week if in a fuel efficient diesel. Greens will take his fuel costs to 70-80/week

Not unless they take no holiday which I doubt

Also if spending that much on fuel they are an silly not to move to electric, even a cheap Leaf will do 100km

Shefwedfan

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't know I'm not a politician.

What I do know is I am a person who like many others works and pays taxes so if I'm hit with extra penalties just for the type of car I drive I won't be happy.

Let The USA, China and India get their house in order first.

Our CO2 per capita is higher than China....

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

As a green supporter this deal looks promising but I’ll wait for the details. I’m hoping there’s an aviation tax for example so that “on a whim” flights are consigned to history

You could be a supporter of Green initiatives I suppose. What is a "green supporter"? Is that like a member of Opus Dei except for a different religion.
Any aviation tax would please you or one which reduce the environmental footprint of carriers operating in and out of Ireland while not undermining Ireland's competitive position in relation to other open economies?

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Hopefully an aviation tax is introduced. The cost is too cheap.

It allows low paid people reward themselves and their young families with a foreign holidays . This also creates tourism jobs in destination countries which in turn generates tax to run a country and fund its social programs.

Flying and foreign holidays should only be for the wealthy.

Hear, hear.