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Green Party wish list.
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Do you no get it. Everyone, literally everyone, would agree with you on that.
But in rural Ireland there is no public transport, there is no alternative to a car.
How are the Greens going to provide that alternative? How much will that cost? how long is it going to take?
In the meantime dont you think the first target should be eradicating petrol and diesel cars from the road?
But here is where it gets stupid. the Green have committed this government to a policy that delays the eradication of petrol and diesel cars.
the smart move would have been to make EV's cheaper than all the alternatives. instead they have not only left electric vehicles costing more than petrol or diesel vehicles but they are now penalising those that have them with carbon taxes. The less money a person has to save, the longer it will take for them to switch to an EV.
Do you not see the stupidity of the Green policy?
The objective is to get rid of diesel and petrol vehicles, but your policy prolongs their use.
You seem to think that every journey currently being made is only possible if it is done by car, and is done where the person making the journey owns the car. My dad cycled 15 miles to his first job 60 years ago and I am not suggesting that that is a reasonable commute for people working in office environments in 2020 but should people have to get in to the car to go 1Km for a pint of milk?
why did most of us travel to school by walking/bike/bus (rural or otherwise) yet now a lot of those journeys are being made by car?
I know what is currently happening is not sustainable. Maybe a fuel carbon tax will convince people to think about the amount of journeys they are making and try to become more efficient.
You are sticking with the view that any carbon tax, environmentally friendly initiative is solely the responsibility of the part with less than 20% of the people in government.
And what is this about 'my policy', I'm not a Green party member, I don't care what party enacts change, I just want to see something meaningful happen.0 -
The bottom line here - again - is that the vast majority of the Irish electorate don't care about Green issues when push comes to shove.
They got 7%.... 7% of those who turned up to vote, not even of the population.
Watching Ryan on the news here with his smug pontificating is annoying me already. He's desperate to sell it to rural Ireland but listening to the farmers on R1 before 6, not many are convinced.
I honestly hope FF grassroots reject it.
A FG led, FF supported government signed Ireland up to the Paris Agreement. Are you suggesting that that was only for a bit of entertainment?0 -
Stop with this bull**** of asking everyone else to make sensible policies for the Greens.
Action might be needed, who is arguing with that?
Do you agree that significantly increasing carbon taxes imposing that significant cost on those that cannot afford to replace their car is unfair?
What policies have the Greens put in place to mitigate that?
Where does the "which is parked up 92% of the time" statistic come from?
I assume you can provide a source or link
If you are in a rural area that has no public transport by necessity, not choice, you must have a car. Whether the car is used 8 hours a day or 8 minutes a day is immaterial.
People in rural areas might well be crying out to a alternative to their car, they are doing that already, With higher insurance, increased fuel costs, and road tax do you not think if there was an alternative they would be using it already?
So answer this. Why are the green party penalising the very people that we need to make the switch? Those that are least able to change their car are the very ones that are driving older less fuel efficient cars that have higher emissions. Why have the Green imposed a carbon tax that will make it even more difficult for these people to get rid of their old cars. If they are paying carbon taxes then they have less money to save to to replace their vehicle.
Do you think the Green party are totally incapable of coming up with a policy that would instead of penalising people actually help people to switch ot an EV?
Was that an intellectual step too far?
The other solution to the problem is to stop people living in splendid rural isolation and require every new house to be part of an existing settlement (village) of at least 100 homes.
Problem solved, no problem to me.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »A FG led, FF government signed Ireland up to the Paris Agreement. Are you suggesting that that was only for a bit of entertainment?
You keep going on about this and I answered it previously
So what? As the previous economic crisis showed, agreements and treaties can and will be changed overnight if it suits the bigger players in Europe. Seeing as we're told how (allegedly) influential we are in Brussels, let's flex that muscle to our own benefits.
Given the upcoming recession is predicted to be worse than that of 10 years ago and the increased damage this Green fantasy will do, I don't think many people in this country will be contented by the environmental "feels" when they're struggling to pay the bills and keep a roof over their head.
They certainly won't care when the likes of China and the US (with cities of a bigger population than our entire country) continue to do what they want and serve their own interests as well.
No one cares about Green issues. The election proved that. Less than 7% (of overall eligible voters) and how many of that was made in the spirit of a vague "saving the planet is good" notion or just to spite FF/FG0 -
The other solution to the problem is to stop people living in splendid rural isolation and require every new house to be part of an existing settlement (village) of at least 100 homes.
Problem solved, no problem to me.
But it doesn't solve the problem does it.
Move all the people to their local town and village, and then what?
Are you suggesting that public transport will be provided for every town in the country?
How is that going to work? How much would it cost? can it be done in a relatively short time?0 -
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It's what Bus Eireann was created for.0
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You keep going on about this and I answered it previously
So what? As the previous economic crisis showed, agreements and treaties can and will be changed overnight if it suits the bigger players in Europe. Seeing as we're told how (allegedly) influential we are in Brussels, let's flex that muscle to our own benefits.
Given the upcoming recession is predicted to be worse than that of 10 years ago and the increased damage this Green fantasy will do, I don't think many people in this country will be contented by the environmental "feels" when they're struggling to pay the bills and keep a roof over their head.
They certainly won't care when the likes of China and the US (with cities of a bigger population than our entire country) continue to do what they want and serve their own interests as well.
No one cares about Green issues. The election proved that. Less than 7% (of overall eligible voters) and how many of that was made in the spirit of a vague "saving the planet is good" notion or just to spite FF/FG
Because the science indicates that change is critically necessary.
One of the best ways of putting pressure on the US and China is adhering to the agreement which we all signed up to.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »Because the science indicates that change is critically necessary.
One of the best ways of putting pressure on the US and China is adhering to the agreement which we all signed up to.
Seriously? You think Trump or the Chinese communist party will give a toss about what the virtue signalling Irish do? They don't even listen to their own citizens.
If anything we might be an example of how to destroy your economy for nothing more than the "feels"0 -
Lol.Tell me how wrote: »Because the science indicates that change is critically necessary.
One of the best ways of putting pressure on the US and China is adhering to the agreement which we all signed up to.
They will do whatever the fuck they want.0 -
Just heard that bumbling fool Ryan on the News telling us how good this is for rural Ireland.
Can someone explain this to me because i just can't see it.
So i'm a rural dweller.
I drive a diesel car = more on carbon taxes.
I use oil and solid fuel for heating = more on carbon taxes.
Own my on house = Get it retrofitted yourself but if i had a social house it would be done for nothing.
So according to Ryan my quality of life is going to get better.0 -
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Seriously? You think Trump or the Chinese communist party will give a toss about what the virtue signalling Irish do? They don't even listen to their own citizens.
If anything we might be an example of how to destroy your economy for nothing more than the "feels"
Here's what I would hope would happen.
Countries adhere to commitment of targets set out in Paris Agreement.
In future agreements, countries who have kept up their side of the deal would commit to favoring trade with other environmentally disciplined countries.
Those who have not behaved accordingly would then see the need to alter their ways.
That fails if no one tries to achieve their targets. What then?0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »Lol.
They will do whatever the fuck they want.
What do 'you' want?
Because the science isn't going to change just because it is unpopular.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »Here's what I would hope would happen.
Countries adhere to commitment of targets set out in Paris Agreement.
In future agreements, countries who have kept up their side of the deal would commit to favoring trade with other environmentally disciplined countries.
Those who have not behaved accordingly would then see the need to alter their ways.
That fails if no one tries to achieve their targets. What then?
Hope and what actually happens are to entirely different things.
Ireland and indeed the EU will have no choice but to trade with China and the USA simply down to their massive size if it wants to prosper - no matter what their environmental policy.
The only way USA and China will adopt a more sustainable path is from domestic pressure. And neither country has a good track record in that regard.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »Here's what I would hope would happen.
Countries adhere to commitment of targets set out in Paris Agreement.
In future agreements, countries who have kept up their side of the deal would commit to favoring trade with other environmentally disciplined countries.
Those who have not behaved accordingly would then see the need to alter their ways.
That fails if no one tries to achieve their targets. What then?
I'm sorry because I do believe that you're probably well intentioned and sincere in your posts here.
But your position displays a massive naivety of global politics and trade. It's idealistic but not realistic.
And that is why most people don't support the Green Agenda, don't vote for them, and why they shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power.
We've been down this road before in Ireland - more taxes, they created a two tier motor tax system that devalued "older" cars overnight, and left the country in a worse place than they found it (leaving aside for a moment the global crash). This will be no different if the deal actually passes.0 -
MrMusician18 wrote: »Hope and what actually happens are to entirely different things.
Ireland and indeed the EU will have no choice but to trade with China and the USA simply down to their massive size if it wants to prosper - no matter what their environmental policy.
The only way USA and China will adopt a more sustainable path is from domestic pressure. And neither country has a good track record in that regard.
So what then, tell the environment to hold off in disintegrating for a couple of decades?
If you were in a position to enact positive change tomorrow, what would you do?0 -
I'm sorry because I do believe that you're probably well intentioned and sincere in your posts here.
But your position displays a massive naivety of global politics and trade. It's idealistic but not realistic.
And that is why most people don't support the Green Agenda, don't vote for them, and why they shouldn't be anywhere near the levers of power.
We've been down this road before in Ireland - more taxes, they created a two tier motor tax system that devalued "older" cars overnight, and left the country in a worse place than they found it (leaving aside for a moment the global crash). This will be no different if the deal actually passes.
The only thing which we can come close to categorically saying as being realistic is that change is needed.
I'm open to suggestions as to what that change is, but I know that kicking the sh*t out of the only group who is advocating for change is a very shortsighted approach.0 -
Tell me how wrote: »You seem to think that every journey currently being made is only possible if it is done by car, and is done where the person making the journey owns the car. My dad cycled 15 miles to his first job 60 years ago and I am not suggesting that that is a reasonable commute for people working in office environments in 2020 but should people have to get in to the car to go 1Km for a pint of milk?
why did most of us travel to school by walking/bike/bus (rural or otherwise) yet now a lot of those journeys are being made by car?
I know what is currently happening is not sustainable. Maybe a fuel carbon tax will convince people to think about the amount of journeys they are making and try to become more efficient.
You are sticking with the view that any carbon tax, environmentally friendly initiative is solely the responsibility of the part with less than 20% of the people in government.
And what is this about 'my policy', I'm not a Green party member, I don't care what party enacts change, I just want to see something meaningful happen.
Stop avoiding the questions.
I agree that we need to move away from petrol or diesel cars, I dont think you would find anyone that wouldn't.
The question is how do we get there?
People will choose to to buy EV's if they can.
People will buy what they can afford, they will not buy what they cannot afford.
Taxing someone because they don't have the money to replace their car is a very poor way of getting change to happen.
What happens when you do this is delay the point where there are no diesel or petrol cars on the road.
Surely the smart way to approach this is to make EV's cheaper. If someone has the choice of buying a diesel car or an electric car and they cost the same, or the electric car is cheaper, which one are they most likely to buy
Instead of wasting money on public transport in rural areas would it not be wiser to use that money to remove or reduce the VAT and VRT on electric vehicles instead?
Regarding you point about someone using their car to drive 1km to get a pint of milk, do you honestly think thats going to change? If they have an electric car they are still going to do that. Government policy or taxes have no chance whatsoever of changing that.
Here is the bit I dont get. Imagine tomorrow morning every vehicle on the road was electric, how drastically would that change our carbon emissions?
Pretty drastically I would think. Is that not a decent target to achieve first?
Maybe you would find that it is not necessary to spend billion on public transport in rural areas, and instead divert that money to removing fossil fuels power stations, insulating building, installing solar on every roof top or some other infrastructural project that will deliver even greater benefits.
The problem with the Green party policies is that they want everything done overnight. Its not going to happen that way because change takes times and there is simply not enough money to do everything at once.0 -
We pay extortionate insurance and tax rate for cars in this country so I will damn well use my car if I want no matter how long the journey.Tell me how wrote: »You seem to think that every journey currently being made is only possible if it is done by car, and is done where the person making the journey owns the car. My dad cycled 15 miles to his first job 60 years ago and I am not suggesting that that is a reasonable commute for people working in office environments in 2020 but should people have to get in to the car to go 1Km for a pint of milk?
why did most of us travel to school by walking/bike/bus (rural or otherwise) yet now a lot of those journeys are being made by car?
I know what is currently happening is not sustainable. Maybe a fuel carbon tax will convince people to think about the amount of journeys they are making and try to become more efficient.
You are sticking with the view that any carbon tax, environmentally friendly initiative is solely the responsibility of the part with less than 20% of the people in government.
And what is this about 'my policy', I'm not a Green party member, I don't care what party enacts change, I just want to see something meaningful happen.
We are a little rock in the middle of the Atlantic, whatever we do will have no meaningful affect on anything. Pie in the sky stuff to appease a small minority of clowns like Eamonn Ryan and his ilk.0 -
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But it doesn't solve the problem does it.
Move all the people to their local town and village, and then what?
Are you suggesting that public transport will be provided for every town in the country?
How is that going to work? How much would it cost? can it be done in a relatively short time?
I know it will never be popular in rural Ireland, but I am against one-off rural housing, other than for active farmers.
It's popular as the sites are cheap/free, compared to building in villages, so one way I would discourage it is by making sites in villages/towns much cheaper, and I mean 50% cheaper.
I am not against one-off houses, I am against one-off rural houses.
We all know the problems and costs of one-off houses:- problems with maintenance and quality controls of groups water schemes
- septic tanks
- excessive mileage of elec and telecom poles
- too many 2 car households
- not able to walk from your house
Let's build up villages and towns.0 -
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But it doesn't solve the problem does it.
Move all the people to their local town and village, and then what?
Are you suggesting that public transport will be provided for every town in the country?
How is that going to work? How much would it cost? can it be done in a relatively short time?
I suspect there already is a bus to every town?
Maybe not frequent enough in many cases?0 -
The other solution to the problem is to stop people living in splendid rural isolation and require every new house to be part of an existing settlement (village) of at least 100 homes.
Problem solved, no problem to me.
You don't have a clue do you.
Any new house build in a rural area costs nothing extra.
THe main road is there already,
The ESB poles are there and if you need an extra 1 or 2 you pay for it.
You pay for your own sewage treatment.
You pay for your own water connection or a bore a well.
So i can't see where your coming from,0 -
Stop avoiding the questions.
I agree that we need to move away from petrol or diesel cars, I dont think you would find anyone that wouldn't.
The question is how do we get there?
People will choose to to buy EV's if they can.
People will buy what they can afford, they will not buy what they cannot afford.
Taxing someone because they don't have the money to replace their car is a very poor way of getting change to happen.
What happens when you do this is delay the point where there are no diesel or petrol cars on the road.
Surely the smart way to approach this is to make EV's cheaper. If someone has the choice of buying a diesel car or an electric car and they cost the same, or the electric car is cheaper, which one are they most likely to buy
Instead of wasting money on public transport in rural areas would it not be wiser to use that money to remove or reduce the VAT and VRT on electric vehicles instead?
Regarding you point about someone using their car to drive 1km to get a pint of milk, do you honestly think thats going to change? Id they have an electric car they are still going to do that. Government policy or taxes have no chance whatsoever of changing that.
Here is the bit I dont get. Imagine tomorrow morning every vehicle on the road was electric, how drastically would that change our carbon emissions?
Pretty drastically I would think. Is that not a decent target to achieve first?
Maybe you would find that it is not necessary to spend billion on public transport in rural areas, and instead divert that money to removing fossil fuels power stations, insulating building, installing solar on every roof top or some other infrastructural project that will deliver even greater benefits.
The problem with the Green party policies is that they want everything done overnight. Its not going to happen that way because change takes times and there is simply not enough money to do everything at once.
You seem fixated on the use of a car whether it is either of the combustion engine or electric type.
Why must it be like that for short journeys?
It isn't like that in Holland.
Should it be like that for kids going to school?
We know that average body weight and obesity has increased greatly as the use widespread use of cars increased (as well as other factors). Right now, (outside of Covid) people get in their car, to drive to a gym to walk 2, 4, 6km etc on a treadmill or cycle a stationary bike. Could it be possible that more frequent use of self powered transport, would be better all round?
I'm not advocating that we spend Billions on rural public transport. I'm suggesting that anything which brings about meaningful change should be encouraged.0 -
Surely the smart way to approach this is to make EV's cheaper. If someone has the choice of buying a diesel car or an electric car and they cost the same, or the electric car is cheaper, which one are they most likely to buy
Instead of wasting money on public transport in rural areas would it not be wiser to use that money to remove or reduce the VAT and VRT on electric vehicles instead?
https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/grant-amounts/
There already is a grant, up to 5k.
There already is VRT relief, see below:
Additional financial incentives
Direct CO2 emission values are used to calculate the Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) and annual Motor Tax bands for vehicles.
Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) have no tail pipe emissions of CO2
Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV) should have CO2 emissions circa 60g/km
VRT
VRT is paid whenever a car is registered for the first time in Ireland. Electric Vehicles receive VRT relief separately to SEAI grant support. VRT relief for BEVs is in place until the end of 2021 and for PHEVs until end of 2020. Find about more about VRT.0 -
Regarding you point about someone using their car to drive 1km to get a pint of milk, do you honestly think thats going to change? If they have an electric car they are still going to do that. Government policy or taxes have no chance whatsoever of changing that.
Solution is road-pricing.
Electronics / camera / GPS tracks the car.
If you use a public road, you pay.
See the London congestion charge.0 -
You don't have a clue do you.
Any new house build in a rural area costs nothing extra.
THe main road is there already,
The ESB poles are there and if you need an extra 1 or 2 you pay for it.
You pay for your own sewage treatment.
You pay for your own water connection or a bore a well.
So i can't see where your coming from,
Your points have already been addressed comprehensively, better than I could do.I know it will never be popular in rural Ireland, but I am against one-off rural housing, other than for active farmers.
It's popular as the sites are cheap/free, compared to building in villages, so one way I would discourage it is by making sites in villages/towns much cheaper, and I mean 50% cheaper.
I am not against one-off houses, I am against one-off rural houses.
We all know the problems and costs of one-off houses:- problems with maintenance and quality controls of groups water schemes
- septic tanks
- excessive mileage of elec and telecom poles
- too many 2 car households
- not able to walk from your house
Let's build up villages and towns.0 -
Any new house build in a rural area costs nothing extra.
THe main road is there already,
The ESB poles are there and if you need an extra 1 or 2 you pay for it.
You pay for your own sewage treatment.
You pay for your own water connection or a bore a well.
So i can't see where your coming from,
I see your points, and yes, new houses do pay levies for connections to water/elec/telecom, yes.
However, I still feel we should discourage one-off rural houses.
They should also pay higher ongoing fees, to reflect the higher costs.
This does happen a bit, e.g. ESB have a higher rural standing charge, I think.0 -
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I honestly hope FF grassroots reject it.
Id be surprised if the FF grassroots dont reject it, there seems to be nothing in this deal for FF except for holding power itself. While that might be Martins main objective the grassroots wont get to smell the leather like he will so they're just not going to fight for them to go into government.
Not sure how Martin will sell this to the grassroots as a good deal for them, most of whom are older voters. On one hand they've to end a lifetime of civil war and then on the other they've to go into power with a junior partner whose policies will decimate rural Ireland and Fianna Fails own voters. If you're a FF member its hard to see any upside from this apart from Martin getting back into a Merc.0 -
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I suspect there already is a bus to every town?
Maybe not frequent enough in many cases?
I could name a dozen that have no bus service that would be suitable for people trying to get to work, and that's only in a radius of 20 miles from where I live.
Most of those busses that TFI run are a couple of times a day and aimed at the elderly or isolated so that they can do a shop once or twice a week.
As for anything else, forget it.
here's a good example.
You want to get from Kilmallock to Kanturk using public transport (a journey of about 20 miles).
You will need to use 3 or 4 different buses (depending on time of day), and the fastest route will take over 6 hours.
https://www.transportforireland.ie/plan-a-journey/?name_origin=Kilmallock%2C+Kilmallock&nameInfo_origin=suburbID%3A57204210%3A10841018%3AKilmallock%3A561146%3A372388%3AITMR&name_destination=Kanturk%2C+Kanturk&nameInfo_destination=51010436&itdTripDateTimeDepArr=dep&qqueryMacro=true&language=en&useProxFootSearch=on&itdDate=20200615&itdTime=1905&custom_suggestMacro=true&std3_commonMacro=trip&std3_customMacro=true&inclMOT_8=10
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