Green Party wish list.

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you can’t follow the thread it’s not my fault

Gibberish is exactly what you talking about

Public transport = covid.... :-)

Not quite at the point of sobriety yet?

Johnny_BravoIII

Also folks, there's catering for people's needs and servicing them where they are situated now and asking the question, "what type of society do we want in 50 , 100 years?"

We have been particularly poor at this type of long-term planning. Public infrastructure shouldn't need to pay for itself immediately. A decent rail network would re-orient people to live near commuter hubs. This seens obvious.

The E-car is coming. It's following a technology adoption curve, same as any, smartphone, it's still very much in the early-adoptor phase cost/value etc.

The E-car doesn't change the conversation much in terms of what type of a society are we building. Do we want to continue 1-off housing for another 40 years? What would that look like? Is urbanising the countryside going to help us reduce emissions or increase? What happens to services delivery for a super-dispersed society? Transport is the entry point to thinking about these things.

The PFG has lots of good green stuff in it. It's a step towards this big picture green sustainable society in 50 years.... the greens opposed to it are focused on short-term politics. Lets hope it passes.

Shefwedfan

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Also folks, there's catering for people's needs and servicing them where they are situated now and asking the question, "what type of society do we want in 50 , 100 years?"

We have been particularly poor at this type of long-term planning. Public infrastructure shouldn't need to pay for itself immediately. A decent rail network would re-orient people to live near commuter hubs. This seens obvious.

The E-car is coming. It's following a technology adoption curve, same as any, smartphone, it's still very much in the early-adoptor phase cost/value etc.

The E-car doesn't change the conversation much in terms of what type of a society are we building. Do we want to continue 1-off housing for another 40 years? What would that look like? Is urbanising the countryside going to help us reduce emissions or increase? What happens to services delivery for a super-dispersed society? Transport is the entry point to thinking about these things.

The PFG has lots of good green stuff in it. It's a step towards this big picture green sustainable society in 50 years.... the greens opposed to it are focused on short-term politics. Lets hope it passes.

Some people like to sit in the current and never move forward, the “ahh sure it’s grand” attitude which drives me mad, then they complain when left behind

Ireland is so far behind other countries in terms of movement of people. We have motorway that are over capacity and no alternative. When an alternative is proposed you have everyone out complaining. People that are happy little piggies in poo

Ecar is not the answer, I drive one and I’m not stupid enough to think it’s a long term solution

We have a housing system which is idiotic. Towns are dying and people are complaining, yet they want a big ugly pig of a one off house in the middle of nowhere then complain when they have no services.

You have major cities which people all want a house and are afraid of apartment yet we don’t have the land to build the house or the infrastructure to move people around.

When people propose transport which will reignite towns and allow people to build houses, bigger houses, in these villages they kick against it

Some people have no idea what they are talking about but think they are expert

Then we have a government full of independent useless politicians who have no interest in government policy, once they get a pay cheque, show up for funerals and birthdays to keep the voters happy they don’t even bother attending the Dail. Then people rejoice in the stupidity of these local TDS, ahh they are thick but they are our thicko

Rows Grower

The leader of the Green Party in northern Ireland and the Chairperson of the party in the south have called for a "No" vote on the proposed coalition.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0621/1148697-northern-greens/

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ecar is not the answer, I drive one and I’m not stupid enough to think it’s a long term solution

I drive one and it is the best long term solution for those in non-urban locations.

You are applying with a broad brush transportation solutions as applied in densely populated Holland or the conurbations of Germany to low population density Ireland.
You are wrong and too blind to see it.

efanton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Some people like to sit in the current and never move forward, the “ahh sure it’s grand” attitude which drives me mad, then they complain when left behind

Ireland is so far behind other countries in terms of movement of people. We have motorway that are over capacity and no alternative. When an alternative is proposed you have everyone out complaining. People that are happy little piggies in poo

Ecar is not the answer, I drive one and I’m not stupid enough to think it’s a long term solution

We have a housing system which is idiotic. Towns are dying and people are complaining, yet they want a big ugly pig of a one off house in the middle of nowhere then complain when they have no services.

You have major cities which people all want a house and are afraid of apartment yet we don’t have the land to build the house or the infrastructure to move people around.

When people propose transport which will reignite towns and allow people to build houses, bigger houses, in these villages they kick against it

Some people have no idea what they are talking about but think they are expert

Then we have a government full of independent useless politicians who have no interest in government policy, once they get a pay cheque, show up for funerals and birthdays to keep the voters happy they don’t even bother attending the Dail. Then people rejoice in the stupidity of these local TDS, ahh they are thick but they are our thicko

We have every motorway going into Dublin that are over capacity at the city limits, elsewhere they are fine. I wonder why that is?

Could it be to do with this country has no long term sustainable plans as Johnny_BravoIII has said.

The only game in this country for generations has been develop Dublin, bring all the business to Dublin, build most of the housing in Dublin, until it has got to the point where Dublin can no longer function as a city should.

There's more public transport in Dublin than there has ever been, yet it simply is not enough, because the majority of the jobs were created in Dublin we have commuter chaos, and because the volume of housing required to sustain that are unable to be built in Dublin we now have nearly a majority of the jobs in Dublin done by people who actually do not live in Dublin city. Blaming it on the motorways and cars misses the point completely.

I asked a Green party supporter to provide just one policy or scheme that the Green have proposed that has been costed. they were unable to do even that.
What does that say about a party that claims to want sustainable future for our country.

If the Green actually sat down and made the effort to cost what they propose they would realise that much of what they are proposing is neither feasible or affordable. While the Green wish to waste billions of euro on public transport in areas where it simply will not work, or will be so unaffordable to implement then it will never be completed. That's the reality of what the Greens amount to and that is why they are not getting the support they require.

Instead having costed their plans they would have seen where we would have got best bang for buck so that we really we would be addressing carbon emissions and our international commitments in the fastest most effective way.
Would it not for instance be more effective to switch to all EV's and replace all our fossil furled power stations for the same cost as only a fraction of the public transport schemes the greens have proposed if indeed having costed everything that was the case?

Politics is not simply writing down a wish list of Utopian ideas and the putting that before the people or the Dail. To be taken seriously you have to say how much it would cost and how long you expect each proposal will take to implement. No one is going to vote for something that could be scribbled on the back of an envelope.

I am quite happy to support any project that will improve our country if I know how much it will cost, how long it will take and where the money is coming from. The very act of doing this work, Estimating cost, working out how to deliver it, and how long it would take allows you to identify the projects that will allow us to meet our targets fastest. Surely that's exactly what the Greens want?
I will not support the any party's proposals that would have been better presented in a school project.

There lots of Green supporters on here, just one of you show me one single project proposed by the Greens that has been costed and has an estimated time for delivery. Surely that should be a simple thing to do?

Johnny_BravoIII

We have every motorway going into Dublin that are over capacity at the city limits, elsewhere they are fine. I wonder why that is?

The only game in this country for generations has been develop Dublin, bring all the business to Dublin, build most of the housing in Dublin, until it has got to the point where Dublin can no longer function as a city should.

There's more public transport in Dublin than there has ever been, yet it simply is not enough, because the majority of the jobs were created in Dublin we have commuter chaos, and because the volume of housing required to sustain that are unable to be built in Dublin we now have nearly a majority of the jobs in Dublin done by people who actually do not live in Dublin city. Blaming it on the motorways and cars misses the point completely.

All cities on the planet outgrow the regions.
Population migration happens as people move towards the urban wealthier areas seeking jobs. Dublin is a comparitively small city globally. There are 1,000's of examples as to how we should implement good urban design, spacial planning principles. We haven't done this. We haven't yet matured into a modern 1st World city/country with in this respect. Are you arguing that Google/Facebook/ Paypal should have been forced to locate in Leitrim, Carlow, Tipperary? Isn't it obvious why this is not workable?
Decentralising/spreading the wealth is a good thing, but Dublin will always be the economic power house and will always face the same resource problems. There are ways to manage these issues through good planning.

I asked a Green party supporter to provide just one policy or scheme that the Green have proposed that has been costed. they were unable to do even that.
What does that say about a party that claims to want sustainable future for our country.

Do you understand how politics works?
Parties draft their manifestos
https://www.greenparty.ie/policies/2020-general-election-manifesto/
https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2020/SF_GE2020_Manifesto.pdf

They seek to implement their manifesto during government formation talks depending on the resources available. They then make budget submissions etc

https://www.greenparty.ie/campaigns/green-party-pre-budget-submission-2020/

Traditionally the GP are actually recogised as being quite strong on policy.
It's the "bunch of academics" critique that gets thrown around.

If the Green actually sat down and made the effort to cost what they propose they would realise that much of what they are proposing is neither feasible or affordable. While the Green wish to waste billions of euro on public transport in areas where it simply will not work, or will be so unaffordable to implement then it will never be completed. That's the reality of what the Greens amount to and that is why they are not getting the support they require.

Instead having costed their plans they would have seen where we would have got best bang for buck so that we really we would be addressing carbon emissions and our international commitments in the fastest most effective way.

I don't see where the GP has recommend to build public transport to places the will not work?
There's a planning principle at play here.
Do you believe that we adopt a roads based transport model or a public transport model?
Which is the best approach over the next 20-50-100 years for Ireland.
The big victory for the Greens in these formation talks is in convincing the other parties that the US roads-based approach is bad for society for lots of reasons. People in cars whether EV or not is bad for community building, services delivery, traffic management etc. So finally the other parties have seen the light and uderstand that a public transport centric model is the best approach over the coming decades. There is no ban on car's or roads.
There is all-party acceptance that we as a country are way behind where we should be with regard to public transport infrastructure.
We know the outcomes from this approach. It's established best practice.

Would it not for instance be more effective to switch to all EV's

Arguing for EV's is like arguing for the government to support smartphones, laptops, etc. Yes it's important but it's technology adoption. It will happen in its own time as the cost/value makes increasing sense to a wider population.
It doesn't relate to the funadmental big picture/50 year view as to how we approach transport planning. Whether or not EV's exist the smart approach will always be to invest heavily in public transport and reduce reliance on cars. The car will always be a less efficient means of moving people from A to B.

and replace all our fossil furled power stations for the same cost as only a fraction of the public transport schemes the greens have proposed if indeed having costed everything that was the case?

Again, just to be clear.
This is about how to you approach transport over a 10-50 year planning period. What is the basic infrastructure we need to continue succeeding as a country. It seems all parties now agree we need to invest heavily in public transport to facilitate continued economic growth.

Politics is not simply writing down a wish list of Utopian ideas and the putting that before the people or the Dail. To be taken seriously you have to say how much it would cost and how long you expect each proposal will take to implement. No one is going to vote for something that could be scribbled on the back of an envelope.

I refer to the links above.
Bear in mind Green policy has evolved since the 1970's. People have spent lifetimes studying urban design and spacial planning. This is not back-of-the-envelope stuff.
If you are interested, there's a book which I read recently which covers a lot of the basics
https://thehappycity.com/the-book/

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

So how do people get to these train stations?

How many people in Navan or Cavan have got rid of their cars?

Is that really a question? how do you think they get to the train?

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

We have every motorway going into Dublin that are over capacity at the city limits, elsewhere they are fine. I wonder why that is?

Galway, Cork and Limerick all have issues with traffic. Galway is a f**king nightmare

efanton wrote: »

Could it be to do with this country has no long term sustainable plans as Johnny_BravoIII has said.

The only game in this country for generations has been develop Dublin, bring all the business to Dublin, build most of the housing in Dublin, until it has got to the point where Dublin can no longer function as a city should.

There's more public transport in Dublin than there has ever been, yet it simply is not enough, because the majority of the jobs were created in Dublin we have commuter chaos, and because the volume of housing required to sustain that are unable to be built in Dublin we now have nearly a majority of the jobs in Dublin done by people who actually do not live in Dublin city. Blaming it on the motorways and cars misses the point completely.

We have car commuter chaos. Dublin is more than capable of having the number of jobs. It just need better public transport to bring people in and out. Move people outside of County Dublin. How many people jump on a train into London and sit on it for an hour each day?

efanton wrote: »

I asked a Green party supporter to provide just one policy or scheme that the Green have proposed that has been costed. they were unable to do even that.
What does that say about a party that claims to want sustainable future for our country.

If the Green actually sat down and made the effort to cost what they propose they would realise that much of what they are proposing is neither feasible or affordable. While the Green wish to waste billions of euro on public transport in areas where it simply will not work, or will be so unaffordable to implement then it will never be completed. That's the reality of what the Greens amount to and that is why they are not getting the support they require.

Instead having costed their plans they would have seen where we would have got best bang for buck so that we really we would be addressing carbon emissions and our international commitments in the fastest most effective way.
Would it not for instance be more effective to switch to all EV's and replace all our fossil furled power stations for the same cost as only a fraction of the public transport schemes the greens have proposed if indeed having costed everything that was the case?

Politics is not simply writing down a wish list of Utopian ideas and the putting that before the people or the Dail. To be taken seriously you have to say how much it would cost and how long you expect each proposal will take to implement. No one is going to vote for something that could be scribbled on the back of an envelope.

I am quite happy to support any project that will improve our country if I know how much it will cost, how long it will take and where the money is coming from. The very act of doing this work, Estimating cost, working out how to deliver it, and how long it would take allows you to identify the projects that will allow us to meet our targets fastest. Surely that's exactly what the Greens want?
I will not support the any party's proposals that would have been better presented in a school project.

There lots of Green supporters on here, just one of you show me one single project proposed by the Greens that has been costed and has an estimated time for delivery. Surely that should be a simple thing to do?

^^^^
You are just ranting and going back over the same topic over and over again. People have explained multiple times how the country could work. How every party should be investing in public transport etc but you ignore. Go onto the next point to circle back around again to the same point with a new poster.



Irelands biggest issue at the moment all leads back to one problem. No public transport. Whatever topic you discuss it always comes back to that and having a proper public transport system would resolve


1. Housing: public transport to move people out of Dublin to villages/town which would reduce the requirement for housing in the city
2. CO2: public transport will reduce
3. HSE: the ability to move people quickly around will help HSE move resources from hospitals
4. Children Hospital: The biggest issue is the location and the fact people cannot get in and out in .....guess what cars
5. Rent: moving people out of Dublin will reduce rents in the capital.
6. Jobs in countryside: if companies can land at Dublin airpot and jump on a train and be at an office in an hour in lets say Navan they would build office, of coruse they would wages would be cheaper. At the moment, they land and spend 1 hour sitting on M50.



Will I continue. Plenty of more results in public transport.



In regards to heating, well as I already posted multiple options available.Building a big bomb in Kerry is not a good plan for anyone. Inclduing the main source of income for Kerry which is tourism.

efanton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Galway, Cork and Limerick all have issues with traffic. Galway is a f**king nightmare





We have car commuter chaos. Dublin is more than capable of having the number of jobs. It just need better public transport to bring people in and out. Move people outside of County Dublin. How many people jump on a train into London and sit on it for an hour each day?





^^^^
You are just ranting and going back over the same topic over and over again. People have explained multiple times how the country could work. How every party should be investing in public transport etc but you ignore. Go onto the next point to circle back around again to the same point with a new poster.



Irelands biggest issue at the moment all leads back to one problem. No public transport. Whatever topic you discuss it always comes back to that and having a proper public transport system would resolve


1. Housing: public transport to move people out of Dublin to villages/town which would reduce the requirement for housing in the city
2. CO2: public transport will reduce
3. HSE: the ability to move people quickly around will help HSE move resources from hospitals
4. Children Hospital: The biggest issue is the location and the fact people cannot get in and out in .....guess what cars
5. Rent: moving people out of Dublin will reduce rents in the capital.
6. Jobs in countryside: if companies can land at Dublin airpot and jump on a train and be at an office in an hour in lets say Navan they would build office, of coruse they would wages would be cheaper. At the moment, they land and spend 1 hour sitting on M50.



Will I continue. Plenty of more results in public transport.



In regards to heating, well as I already posted multiple options available.Building a big bomb in Kerry is not a good plan for anyone. Inclduing the main source of income for Kerry which is tourism.

Irelands biggest issue at the moment all leads back to one problem. No public transport.

No that is DUBLIN'S biggest problem.
Your whole argument is Dublin centric.

So despite the problem caused by putting the majority of the inward investment in Dublin, and creating the majority of jobs there, you believe we should continue that but it will be grand because the public transport will be better.

You still haven't even attempted to answer the core of my argument. Have any of these proposal been costed, how long will that take to implement and where does the money come form?


I am going back to the same issue, because I am certain that building the motorways , speeding up the switch to EV's will be far far cheaper than anything the Greens have proposed with regards public transport. and have a greater effect of reducing emissions. you could then use the money not wasted to replace power stations.

You of course in the Green party will have done studies to show that your proposals are better and will cost less and be delivered in less time. The strange thing is when asked about these studies or costings for the Greens proposals you suddenly go quiet.

Maybe I am totally wrong, but I know what it will cost to build the M20, I know what it would cost to reduce the price of electric cars. The only way you could prove that I am wrong is have similar costings for the alternatives that the Greens propose and also show that those proposals will reduce emissions by a greater extent.

So where are the costings, the studies, and the proposed timelines?

Rows Grower

efanton wrote: »

No that is DUBLIN'S biggest problem.
Your whole argument is Dublin centric.

So despite the problem caused by putting the majority of the inward investment in Dublin, and creating the majority of jobs there, you believe we should continue that but it will be grand because the public transport will be better.

You still haven't even attempted to answer the core of my argument. Have any of these proposal been costed, how long will that take to implement and where does the money come form?


I am going back to the same issue, because I am certain that building the motorways , speeding up the switch to EV's will be far far cheaper than anything the Greens have proposed with regards public transport. and have a greater effect of reducing emissions. you could then use the money not wasted to replace power stations.

You of course in the Green party will have done studies to show that you proposal are better and will cost less and be delivered in less time. The strange thing is when asked about these studies or costings for the Greens proposals you suddenly go quiet.

Maybe I am totally wrong, but I know what it will cost to build the M20, I know what it would cost to reduce the price of electric cars. The only way you could prove that I am wrong is have similar costings for the alternatives that the Greens propose and also show that those proposals will reduce emissions by a greater extent.

So where are the costings, the studies, and the proposed timelines?

This chaps whole online persona is about arguing, then deflection when called out and then burying the head in the sand when everything else fails.

If he was the only poster on boards.ie he would still be happy arguing away with himself once in his own mind he thought he was winning.

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

No that is DUBLIN'S biggest problem.
Your whole argument is Dublin centric.

So despite the problem caused by putting the majority of the inward investment in Dublin, and creating the majority of jobs there, you believe we should continue that but it will be grand because the public transport will be better.

You still haven't even attempted to answer the core of my argument. Have any of these proposal been costed, how long will that take to implement and where does the money come form?


I am going back to the same issue, because I am certain that building the motorways , speeding up the switch to EV's will be far far cheaper than anything the Greens have proposed with regards public transport. and have a greater effect of reducing emissions. you could then use the money not wasted to replace power stations.

You of course in the Green party will have done studies to show that you proposal are better and will cost less and be delivered in less time. The strange thing is when asked about these studies or costings for the Greens proposals you suddenly go quiet.

Maybe I am totally wrong, but I know what it will cost to build the M20, I know what it would cost to reduce the price of electric cars. The only way you could prove that I am wrong is have similar costings for the alternatives that the Greens propose and also show that those proposals will reduce emissions by a greater extent.

So where are the costings, the studies, and the proposed timelines?

My whole argument is Dublin centric???

My whole argument as you say is to move outside of Dublin by using public transport instead of cars

In term of studies....look at every other major country in the world for an example....

Is the M20 going to resolve all the issue I listed above? Or just get the traffic quicker to a traffic jam entering cork and limerick? If you want studies etc on this just look at every recent motorway in Ireland.

Shefwedfan

Rows Grower wrote: »

This chaps whole online persona is about arguing, then deflection when called out and then burying the head in the sand when everything else fails.

If he was the only poster on boards.ie he would still be happy arguing away with himself once in his own mind he thought he was winning.

Funny you comment on party thread and complain about their manifesto yet you voted for a person who couldn’t even bother to write one and just counted on the voter to be happy to shake his hand at a funeral

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Funny you comment on party thread and complain about their manifesto yet you voted for a person who couldn’t even bother to write one and just counted on the voter to be happy to shake his hand at a funeral

Arguing, deflection and head burying all covered in one sentence right on cue.

Geuze

efanton wrote: »

But you are making the HUGE assumption that first you could get reliable, cheap, and frequent public transport in to all villages with a 300 person population and that this public transport could be run without making a loss.

Is there somebody calling for public transit to all villages with >300 people?

Maybe for all villages on main roads, ok, with buses already going along the main road.

I might suggest all places with 1,500 people should have public transit.

Johnny_BravoIII

efanton wrote: »

I am going back to the same issue, because I am certain that building the motorways , speeding up the switch to EV's will be far far cheaper than anything the Greens have proposed with regards public transport. and have a greater effect of reducing emissions.

How do you envisage a road-based growth plan works when Ireland has population of 7.5 million people in 2050?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-plfp/populationandlabourforceprojections2017-2051/populationprojectionsresults/

Bass Reeves

Shefwedfan wrote: »

My whole argument is Dublin centric???

My whole argument as you say is to move outside of Dublin by using public transport instead of cars

In term of studies....look at every other major country in the world for an example....

Is the M20 going to resolve all the issue I listed above? Or just get the traffic quicker to a traffic jam entering cork and limerick? If you want studies etc on this just look at every recent motorway in Ireland.

If you knew anything you know that the motorway around Limerick and the tunnel solved Limerick traffic congestion issues. Even at peak traffic you will get in and out of Limerick city center in 20-30 minutes. You will get anywhere around the city in 20 minutes outside of peak traffic times and that considering that the NRA made a balls of the the Roxoboro junction and left no way into the city for the Dublin and Kerry traffic.

Cork is by no means a disaster main issues will be solved by the M20 and by sorting the Dunkett interchange. Galway problem has nothing to do with the motorway, in reality the motorway is too far from the city. The road from Ennis to beyond Ford should have been high quality single carriageway with a acess similar to motorway and sterilising access onto it so as to make expansion feasible in 50 years time.. The money saved should have been used to bring it closer to Galway being it direct into the Sligo roundabout rather than the cheapy option of bringing the traffic directly in with the Dublin traffic. A ring access to the Dublin motorway and out closer Claregalway with high quality single carriageway should have been the solution.

Bass Reeves

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

How do you envisage a road-based growth plan works when Ireland has population of 7.5 million people in 2050?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-plfp/populationandlabourforceprojections2017-2051/populationprojectionsresults/

How do you propose a public transport systems in 2050 with social distancing. WFH will solve a lot of issues

Johnny_BravoIII

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If you knew anything you know that the motorway around Limerick and the tunnel solved Limerick traffic congestion issues. Even at peak traffic you will get in and out of Limerick city center in 20-30 minutes. You will get anywhere around the city in 20 minutes outside of peak traffic times and that considering that the NRA made a balls of the the Roxoboro junction and left no way into the city for the Dublin and Kerry traffic.

Cork is by no means a disaster main issues will be solved by the M20 and by sorting the Dunkett interchange. Galway problem has nothing to do with the motorway, in reality the motorway is too far from the city. The road from Ennis to beyond Ford should have been high quality single carriageway with a acess similar to motorway and sterilising access onto it so as to make expansion feasible in 50 years time.. The money saved should have been used to bring it closer to Galway being it direct into the Sligo roundabout rather than the cheapy option of bringing the traffic directly in with the Dublin traffic. A ring access to the Dublin motorway and out closer Claregalway with high quality single carriageway should have been the solution.

Are you familiar with induced demand?

Johnny_BravoIII

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Are you familiar with induced demand?

Are you familiar with the CSO's record on prediction.

Johnny_BravoIII

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you familiar with the CSO's record on prediction.

Are you saying that we ignore government forecasted population growth when investing in transport infrastructure?

efanton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

My whole argument is Dublin centric???

My whole argument as you say is to move outside of Dublin by using public transport instead of cars

In term of studies....look at every other major country in the world for an example....

Is the M20 going to resolve all the issue I listed above? Or just get the traffic quicker to a traffic jam entering cork and limerick? If you want studies etc on this just look at every recent motorway in Ireland.

No we are not in 'another country' we are in Ireland. Why is it that every political party costed their manifesto proposals except the Greens?

Put the M20 in place and the same number of vehicles would be entering Cork. It will not be more, and I agree it would not be less either. But there would be reduced emission, reduced deaths (the N20 is now notorious as probably the most deadly road in the country), and reduced journey times. It would also allow the very thing you are arguing for. Companies that rely on transport could now move outside of the cities.
It has also been costed and has a delivery time of about 6 to 7 years once they put a spade in the ground.

Reducing the cost of a EV can be easily costed. There are approximately 18,000 vehicles using the N20 every day. typical EV that can carry 4 people costs 30k to 35k. total cost to buy all those cars would be 540 million to 630 million. remove VRT and VAT completely and you are looking at a total cost 125 to 145 million. Add that to the cost of the M20 (current estimate 900 million to 1.1 billion) and you could do the whole lot for less than 1.2 billion euro.


According to Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) figures, an EV produces around 60g of CO2 per km while a petrol vehicle produces around 130g of CO2 per km. Diesel obvious produce more but lets take a saving of 70g CO2 per kilometre driven. Now lets assume that the average journey on the N20 is 35 km and that is doubled because of the return journey to make 70 km. 70 km x 18,000 vehicles comes to 126.000 km per day or close to 46 million km per year. So now we simply multiply the emission saving (70 g/km) by the total number of KM's driven (46 million km) to get a CO2 saving of approx 3.2 million tonnes of CO2 per year.

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-ireland-carbon-emissions-4992542-Feb2020/

According to this report, Ireland emitted 38,914 kilotons of CO2 in 2017, compared to global CO2 emissions that year of 37,100,000 kilotons.

That's the same as saying 39 million tonnes of Co2.

In case you still dont get the point, building the M20 and switching every car on it to an EV is almost 1% of the 7% reduction that the greens want for the year and it would have cost the country less than 1.2 billion euro at the very most.

Now that 1% reduction is only in one county, extrapolate that out to every county and you could see us easily meeting at least 3 or 4 years of our required carbon reduction targets just by switching to electric vehicles in a hurry and building the motorways that are actually needed.
There would not even be the need to remove all VAT from electric vehicles, just remove enough so that EV's are cheaper than the petrol or diesel equivalent and you would have the same result.

Obviously there would have to be some scheme so that everyone was able to borrow money if required to afford to buy an EV. Possibly an automatic deduction from wages, benefits, a government guarantee so that banks will approve loans, or a scheme set up in the credit Unions. I would leave that to the politicians and banks to decide how best to approach that.

So do you still think the Greens can put in a public transport system in a rural area for less money that would produce bigger CO2 savings?


Companies do not move out of cities so that it is more convenient for their employees, they will only move outside of cites because there are better transport links for their lorries or delivery vehicles, better infrastructure such as broadband and to a location that has sufficient local population to to ensure there are no staff shortages.

I have looked for these studies by the Green, they do not exist.
So are you still going to deflect and avoid.

What projects have the green proposed that have been costed, and have an estimated delivery date and an estimate of the carbon savings?

Water John

Just two/three road projects will make Cork future proof. The M20, Complete North Ring Road and Dunkettle.
Only be taking as much car traffic as possible out of a city can you have safe cycling etc.

Shefwedfan

efanton wrote: »

No we are not in 'another country' we are in Ireland. Why is it that every political party costed their manifesto proposals except the Greens?

Put the M20 in place and the same number of vehicles would be entering Cork. It will not be more, and I agree it would not be less either. But there would be reduced emission, reduced deaths (the N20 is now notorious as probably the most deadly road in the country), and reduced journey times. It would also allow the very thing you are arguing for. Companies that rely on transport could now move outside of the cities.
It has also been costed and has a delivery time of about 6 to 7 years once they put a spade in the ground.

Reducing the cost of a EV can be easily costed. There are approximately 18,000 vehicles using the N20 every day. typical EV that can carry 4 people costs 30k to 35k. total cost to buy all those cars would be 540 million to 630 million. remove VRT and VAT completely and you are looking at a total cost 125 to 145 million. Add that to the cost of the M20 (current estimate 900 million to 1.1 billion) and you could do the whole lot for less than 1.2 billion euro.


According to Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) figures, an EV produces around 60g of CO2 per km while a petrol vehicle produces around 130g of CO2 per km. Diesel obvious produce more but lets take a saving of 70g CO2 per kilometre driven. Now lets assume that the average journey on the N20 is 35 km and that is doubled because of the return journey to make 70 km. 70 km x 18,000 vehicles comes to 126.000 km per day or close to 46 million km per year. So now we simply multiply the emission saving (70 g/km) by the total number of KM's driven (46 million km) to get a CO2 saving of approx 3.2 million tonnes of CO2 per year.

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-ireland-carbon-emissions-4992542-Feb2020/

That's the same as saying 39 million tonnes of Co2.

In case you still dont get the point, building the M20 and switching every car on it to an EV is almost 1% of the 7% reduction that the greens want for the year and it would have cost the country less than 1.2 billion euro at the very most.

Now that 1% reduction is only in one county, extrapolate that out to every county and you could see us easily meeting at least 3 or 4 years of our required carbon reduction targets just by switching to electric vehicles in a hurry and building the motorways that are actually needed.
There would not even be the need to remove all VAT from electric vehicles, just remove enough so that EV's are cheaper than the petrol or diesel equivalent and you would have the same result.

Obviously there would have to be some scheme so that everyone was able to borrow money if required to afford to buy an EV. Possibly an automatic deduction from wages, benefits, a government guarantee so that banks will approve loans, or a scheme set up in the credit Unions. I would leave that to the politicians and banks to decide how best to approach that.

So do you still think the Greens can put in a public transport system in a rural area for less money that would produce bigger CO2 savings?


Companies do not move out of cities so that it is more convenient for their employees, they will only move outside of cites because there are better transport links for their lorries or delivery vehicles, better infrastructure such as broadband and to a location that has sufficient local population to to ensure there are no staff shortages.

I have looked for these studies by the Green, they do not exist.
So are you still going to deflect and avoid.

What projects have the green proposed that have been costed, and have an estimated delivery date and an estimate of the carbon savings?

Why would the M20 allow a company to move out of Cork? it won't made a blind bit of difference. Investing in the train line would be a better enticement to move outside onto the train line.



You keep going back to electric cars but you seem to know every little about them, have you even driven one?



Electric cars do not suit everyone. Simple as that. It depends on your requirements. Replacing the entire fleet with electric at the moment would cause huge issues plus it would cripple the grid.



Plus no car manufacturer at the moment has the quantity required. Our best solution is migration of people to electric as they retire old cars. Also from a CO2 point of view it is also better. The issue Ireland has is people are swapping old cars for more old combustion. Plus people are buying diesel cars when they could and should be using electric. If you knew electrics are already cheaper, massively cheaper. To run/buy/service/tolls/insurance etc.



If a company flies into Dublin today, they cant get a train into Dublin city centre. So they get into a taxi. Depending on the time of the day and route that could take an hour or more. Now you tell that company to move outside to lets say Navan. SO they hope in car from Dublin city centre and try to get out.....well that could be 2 hours depending on time of day. Most of these companies who are looking to invest fly in/out of Dublin weekly. Why would they bother looking outside?



Fly the same company in, put them on a train and in an hour they are in a nice town outside Dublin. Have a nice office and say rent is 80% cheaper than Dublin city and see what the reaction is. People move to Dublin for work but if they have alternative they will. Silicon Docks as it is called was created in 2014. Now its full of companies, befire it was a ....well pick a term


In regards to train lines, well the Navan ones are in place. Just reopen them. I am sure others are around that could be reopened. We have train lines already in place but they are not running a proper service. So start with them. Connect the airport to the netwrok, stick another lane onto the M50 would be the height of stupidity.



Put the tax onto fuel to pay toward public transport. If you want to drive from Dublin to Cork in a car then make it so expensive it is a no brainer to get the train.



Push companies to implement a train first policy.

Water John

I think business has seen a new way to work. It's been around awhile but they hadn't adopted it. No need for a lot of the travel, meetings and bloody meetings.

Johnny_BravoIII

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Are you saying that we ignore government forecasted population growth when investing in transport infrastructure?

If you are going to abuse it to force rural dwellers on to bikes and in to a public transport system that doesn't exist and will never satisfy their needs then best ignore it especially as the trend has been for people to leave the land and congregate in the large metropolises. What ever the CSO guesstimate it will not be dispersed in a water can in equal measure across the land mass.
It is just too easy for me to pick holes in the flawed justifications you use to waste taxpayers money.

Shefwedfan

Water John wrote: »

I think business has seen a new way to work. It's been around awhile but they hadn't adopted it. No need for a lot of the travel, meetings and bloody meetings.

It will work now as all companies are doing the same....


Wait 6 months and everyone will start going back to offices and the remote working will soon start to disappear.....

Rows Grower

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It will work now as all companies are doing the same....


Wait 6 months and everyone will start going back to offices and the remote working will soon start to disappear.....

Do you have any comprehension at all of the crisis this country and the rest of the world is facing?

Shefwedfan

Rows Grower wrote: »

Do you have any comprehension at all of the crisis this country and the rest of the world is facing?

I guess you don't know the business world.....

Busterie

Let's hope the Green party vote no to Government. Who wants that crowd in the north having any say in this country.