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Green Party wish list.
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Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »Thats just false.
I've never heard a green narrative which talks about a transport mix which excludes cars.
It wouldn't be possible for reasons stated above.
Do you understand strawman tactics?
You are creating a false narrative and arguing against it. It's a little bizarre.
The conversation being had is what is the correct mix of roads, cars and public transport which promotes quality of life, supports economic growth and protects heritage and the environment.
You are obsessing about EV's which is super. We need people to promote EV but its not a solution to the transport challenges of the country over the next 50 years.
The greens are talking about house building whilst you are talking about a new type of heating solutions. Important but the question at the higher level is a structural one.
It seems with the 2 to 1 committment the other parties have recognised this. Nobody is banning cars but we need to invest heavily in public transport.
I suggest you read back on this thread then
We have had many Green supporters insisting that there must be a train or public transport solution instead of a M20 in Munster.
The M20 is required for many reasons.
If the M20 is not built then bypasses put on hold because the M20 would negate their need would then have to be built. That's bypasses for Charleville, Buttevant, Mallow, and the stretch through Ballybeg. These alone will cost hundreds of thousands of euro.
Add to that the economic argument allowing business to develop outside of the cities, the fact that the N20 is now used well above the capacity it is safely capable of (18000 vehicle per day when it is rated at 15,000 at 100%), and last but not least the horrendous amount of accidents and deaths. the N20 is rated as the most dangerous road in the country.
Just go back through the thread and you will see green supporters demand that this road not be built and instead a public transport solution put in its place.
It simply is not feasible or affordable to put a public transport system that would service all the towns and the larger villages between Limerick and Cork.
When I suggested that it would be far more cost effective to speed up the eradication of diesel an petrol cars by lowering the cost of EV's through reduced VAT or VRT, I was constantly told there should be no cars, they should be replaced by public transport.
I agree with you that there has to be a sensible mix of solutions, that also include the use of cars..
Public transport works well in cities and larger towns but is unlikely to to be possible in rural areas due to the sheer cost of getting it in there to start with and it almost certainly being a loss generating enterprise.
Likewise we need to recognise that for many rural areas the only form of transport will still be the family car.
It appear many of the green supporters on this board strongly disagree with this.
My argument was simple.
Put in public transport where it is cost effective to do so, but that basically limits it to the large towns and cities.
Then put the motorways in where they are required (that gets traffic, pollution and congestion out of our towns and villages, and reduces the horrendous death toll that the roads like the N20 have), and speed up the switch from petrol and diesel cars to EV's for those areas where public transport is not going to be feasible.0 -
paddyisreal wrote: »You do know that over 35 percent of the country live in rural areas, that's about 1.7 million and take Dublin out of it and that rises to 50 percent. We have always been a rural country and always will be, good luck with trying to change the whole west of this island. In Clare they have 1 Town over 15000! Also not everyone in rural Ireland lives in a 5 bedroom house and not all of us want to life in cities either its called free choice. If the greens had there way there would be no rural ireland but I think they will find out quickly enough how powerful a group rural ireland are.
Why have you taken Dublin out of the statistics? What does that tell us?
If 65% of people live in urban areas, surely we are an urban country?0 -
LegallyAbroad wrote: »Why have you taken Dublin out of the statistics? What does that tell us?
If 65% of people live in urban areas, surely we are an urban country?
The fact is over 1.7 million people is this country are rural dwellers and the greens want them all in cites, towns.... It ain't going to happen. Its pie in the sky stuff, maybe concentrate on how to make rural life more sustainable rather than try and dictate to people on where to live0 -
LegallyAbroad wrote: »Why have you taken Dublin out of the statistics? What does that tell us?
If 65% of people live in urban areas, surely we are an urban country?
But in the Green Party, 35% can overrule the vote of 65%.0 -
paddyisreal wrote: »The fact is over 1.7 million people is this country are rural dwellers and the greens want them all in cites, towns.... It ain't going to happen. Its pie in the sky stuff, maybe concentrate on how to make rural life more sustainable rather than try and dictate to people on where to live
I think you've replied to the wrong person here.0 -
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Water John wrote: »Newer EVs have over 400 km range. Over 90% of users would be fine with EV. The biggest drawback at this point is, the price.
We're a 2 EV family, living in the countryside.
Precisely the problem Water John.
I did the calculation back a few pages that showed by simply removing the diesel and petrol cars that use the N20 and replacing them with EV's would reduce our carbon emissions for the whole country by close to 1%. That doesn't sound like a huge amount but replicate that out to every county and suddenly we have taken a 20 to 25% chunk of of the carbon emission target we have for the next 10 years
I also showed that if the government were to reduce vat to zero for EV's it would cost somewhere in the region of €125 million for the 18,000 cars that currently use the N20.
There is no way possible to put in a public transport solution that would service those 18,000 commuters on a daily basis at anything close to being as low as that.
But also I pointed out it would not be necessary to reduce the VAT to zero, all you would have to do is reduce the VAT on EV's to a level where they would be cheaper than their petrol or diesel equivalents.
The way I see it is making EV's cheaper by reducing the VAT, has to be one of the most cost effective ways for this country to meet its carbon emission reduction target. Not only is it cost effective, but it is also one of the easiest measures to introduce, and also a measure that could see massive reductions in a very short time period. The sooner we start reducing our emissions the easier that target will be to meet.0 -
The broad argument from the greens is we switch from cars to public transport. but maybe I'm wrong , are you saying the policy is to switch from public transport to cars? The new green manifesto?Shefwedfan wrote: »No it doesn't. Who ever said that?
Let take Navan. Put a train station and you can have people drive from Kells and Virginia and surround area to get a train into Dublin. The fact all those people are driving 20km instead of 120km(this is just a example) will massively reduce CO2
Nobody said that public transport would get rid of the car. Where you come up with that?
Go back to your swapping the car fleet to electric. Well one of the huge issues with that is range. Electric cars dont have the range at motorway speeds. But if you had to travel 20-50km instead of 120-150km each way then suddenly electric makes sense.
I really am not sure if you are taking the pi** at this stage?
Or maybe we spend billions on public transport but tell people to keep the cars? Are the cars going or not?0 -
there is no guarantee that the production of these very expensive ecars and associated batteries plus running of these new miracle vehicles will be any better for the environment ....
Why electric cars aren’t as environmentally-friendly as you think
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2019/08/17/exporting-contamination-who-pays-the-environmental-cost-of-electric-car-production
perhaps now is the time to round up rural Irelanders who wont use the non existent public transport Khmer rouge stylie using green bicycles and wolves to hunt them into the towns and cities ?!?!
now is the perfect time to end rural ireland once and for all
this pretty much sums up green party ireland ideology 2020 from where I'm sitting!
not sure how many agree ��0 -
Don't use leading language. EVs are not miracles, simply a battery and electric motor.
I think the whole life environmental print is about one third of an ICE.0 -
Tea drinker wrote: »The broad argument from the greens is we switch from cars to public transport. but maybe I'm wrong , are you saying the policy is to switch from public transport to cars? The new green manifesto?
Or maybe we spend billions on public transport but tell people to keep the cars? Are the cars going or not?
Truth be told they dont know what they want.
Just read their 2020 manifesto. Not one solid proposal, just a lot of vague ideas.
Then it get worse not one single Item in their entire manifesto or their longer, but sadly no more detailed, transport policy document has been costed, or even a basic feasibility analysis done for any project.
https://www.greenparty.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Transport-Policy.pdf
Its almost as if they never envisaged having the opportunity of entering government again so never bothered actually thinking any of their ideas through. Now like rabbits looking into headlights they have no idea what they are doing or what the next move is. I think that has been a major factor in the excruciating slow negotiation for the coalition. They were not able to sit at the table and say we want to this ,this and this, it will cost this, and it will take this long to do.
So instead the only solid concession they got was an increase in carbon taxes.
Even their 7% demand each year in carbon reduction is not part of the program for government. If you read the wording it allows the the coalition if it actually happens to kick that can down the road for the next government to deal with. All it agrees is that these reductions must happen in the next 10 years, not the five years that the coalition might be in government.
If you have no idea of what a plan might cost, whether it is at all feasible, then how would it be at all possible to put it into action.
I'm a bit disappointed really. I was hoping that the Green party and its supporters would actually bring something new and progressive to the country. Sadly I was mistaken.0 -
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Tea drinker wrote: »The broad argument from the greens is we switch from cars to public transport. but maybe I'm wrong , are you saying the policy is to switch from public transport to cars? The new green manifesto?
Or maybe we spend billions on public transport but tell people to keep the cars? Are the cars going or not?
Your wrong0 -
Precisely the problem Water John.
I did the calculation back a few pages that showed by simply removing the diesel and petrol cars that use the N20 and replacing them with EV's would reduce our carbon emissions for the whole country by close to 1%. That doesn't sound like a huge amount but replicate that out to every county and suddenly we have taken a 20 to 25% chunk of of the carbon emission target we have for the next 10 years
I also showed that if the government were to reduce vat to zero for EV's it would cost somewhere in the region of €125 million for the 18,000 cars that currently use the N20.
There is no way possible to put in a public transport solution that would service those 18,000 commuters on a daily basis at anything close to being as low as that.
But also I pointed out it would not be necessary to reduce the VAT to zero, all you would have to do is reduce the VAT on EV's to a level where they would be cheaper than their petrol or diesel equivalents.
The way I see it is making EV's cheaper by reducing the VAT, has to be one of the most cost effective ways for this country to meet its carbon emission reduction target. Not only is it cost effective, but it is also one of the easiest measures to introduce, and also a measure that could see massive reductions in a very short time period. The sooner we start reducing our emissions the easier that target will be to meet.
Each post you switch the goal posts and come up with some other ridiculous version of event to suit your point
Not interested anymore. Your also lying about the discussion on the thread previously
Sorry if you can’t understand the basics of a transport system then not sure why your discussing on boards? My advice after the virus hop on a plane and fly to any other major country and have a look at the transport system which involves train/bus/car etc. Even outside cities.
PS not sure how many times on this thread it was mentioned about the current benefits already available if you buy electric cars, which you now want the government to implement??? They already exist0 -
Shefwedfan wrote: »Each post you switch the goal posts and come up with some other ridiculous version of event to suit your point
Not interested anymore. Your also lying about the discussion on the thread previously
Sorry if you can’t understand the basics of a transport system then not sure why your discussing on boards? My advice after the virus hop on a plane and fly to any other major country and have a look at the transport system which involves train/bus/car etc. Even outside cities.
PS not sure how many times on this thread it was mentioned about the current benefits already available if you buy electric cars, which you now want the government to implement??? They already exist
What is ridiculous is that you never support any of you arguments, your arguments make no sense, and then you contradict yourself
Mine has been clear and consistent from the start, put the public transport in the cities and larger town where it makes economic sense, for those in rural areas where people will only have the family car to rely on lets make it easier for them to switch to EV's.
You quote one of my posts that argues the opposite.
You start out by saying cars bad public transport so much better
and then you go and post something like this , that actually agrees with me.No it doesn't. Who ever said that?
Let take Navan. Put a train station and you can have people drive from Kells and Virginia and surround area to get a train into Dublin. The fact all those people are driving 20km instead of 120km(this is just a example) will massively reduce CO2
Nobody said that public transport would get rid of the car. Where you come up with that?
Go back to your swapping the car fleet to electric. Well one of the huge issues with that is range. Electric cars dont have the range at motorway speeds. But if you had to travel 20-50km instead of 120-150km each way then suddenly electric makes sense.
I really am not sure if you are taking the pi** at this stage?
For the vast majority of people commuting to Limerick or Cork for work they will not be doing more than 50km each way at the very most. Going to their local town or shops, not more than 10km each way for the vast majority.
You even agree that when train services are provided within a relatively short distance (10km (Kells in you example) to 30 km (Virginia in your example) )people should drive to their local train station using their car.
Do you not realise that for most people driving in rural areas the distances you suggest are reasonable to drive in a car to get to a train station is the same distance they drive now every day to get to work anyway.
You also made comment like this
I was arguing for making it easier to switch to electric vehicles as quickly as possible, and you are making comments like that.So your dropping the electric car idea?Electric cars are not the answer....
Public transport is 100% the answer and due to our size it’s perfect0 -
paddyisreal wrote: »The fact is over 1.7 million people is this country are rural dwellers and the greens want them all in cites, towns.... It ain't going to happen. Its pie in the sky stuff, maybe concentrate on how to make rural life more sustainable rather than try and dictate to people on where to live
This is not an attack on "rural ireland". Many of these people relocated to the countryside in the last 40 years in order to build 1 off houses. We actually neeed to keep some countryside for the rural people and rural purposes such as farming.
Do you believe there should be any limits of 1 off rural housing?
If you agree there should be some limits on the building of 1-off houses, then we are into a planning, spacial planning conversation.
My view is that in order to organise ourselves for a population of 8million and the impacts of climate change.
We need to re-imagine the villages of Milltown Malbay, Lahinch, Doolin, Ballyvaughan as functional places to live and reduce the 1-off houses in the surrounding areas. This maintains the rurual way of life and allows continued depopulation to the countryside. We can then focus on investing into those villages the resources people need to prosper. My view is that this is the way to a sustainable rural future.
Clare is a perfect example. Do you agree with the approach to development in Clare in the last 40 years?
Are you old enough to remember how that coastline looked in the 1980s?
A good exercise is the next time you are driving to mentally tag houses built post 1980 and ask whether the same type of development should continue to 2060. For every house built since 1980 imagine the countryside with 2*, 3* the number of bungalows. It's just not sustainable.
Lets also keep in mind we are hurtling towards 4 degrees warming by 2,100.
Do you know what 4 degrees warming means for society and our way of life?
Yes we are talking about changes to our way of life. This is going to happen whether we like it or not.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/science-environment-463840670 -
paddyisreal wrote: »The fact is over 1.7 million people is this country are rural dwellers and the greens want them all in cites, towns.... It ain't going to happen.
It will when the Greens let the wolves loose on the countryside. The plan is coming together...0 -
Do you really think any of the green nonsense beyond that mandated from the EU is going to happen?Sheep_shear wrote: »It will when the Greens let the wolves loose on the countryside. The plan is coming together...
lol
No, it's just a false carrot to get the greens to sign on the dotted line and once they do its going to be a lot harder for them.0 -
I didn't vote Green but was impressed by the concessions they were able to wrangle from ff/fg in the government negotiations. I find it hard to believe that the party would choose to be outside of power enacting nothing vs. the different concessions if in government0
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Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »Brilliant, get your EV, move about as you wish.
That said, there is an honest conversation which needs to be had with rural Ireland. If you live rurally outside of planned residential area where should state money be spent on service delivery, water, electricity, broadband, bus, etc?.
Given the history of the land it will be almost impossible to stop people living rurally but we need to manage it. One thing we need to do is to make it clear, we are prioritising investment in cities, towns and villages, through good urban design, super fast broadband, livable affordable accomodation, access to schools, childcare, free public transport. We need to make it a no-brainer for people to prefer to live in communities.
In fact, my view is we are going to see 2 new drivers of a renewed growth in towns and villages post-covid.
1. WFH - more people with the option to not live in Dublin
2. Retail Armageddon - death of the high-street freeing up space for retail not easily replicated online, laundry, cobbler, fruit & veg, craft food, coffee shops etc.
We need to be clear with people who choose to build the 5 bed dream monster in grannys field 20km from nowhere. You are not a priority for state services including broadband.
Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.0 -
Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.
Nothing wrong with the rural communities, it's those big polluted towns and cities you need to to wary of!
In any case overpopulation is the biggest threat to humanity, it's unsustainable and those big populated cities and towns are where you'll find most of the pollution, so it's a bit rich to attack rural dwellers.0 -
Defunding rural areas would otherwise just result in the rise of a regional Tea Party.Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »Which would act as a tax incentive for continued one-off housing, further urbanisation of the countryside and therefore unworkable.0 -
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Here speaketh the Green support base which the Leaders of the "Movement" need to keep away from open microphones. Sinn Fein have the same problem with some of their most ardent supporters who only serve to alienate their Party from the the Public.Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.0 -
Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »
My view is that in order to organise ourselves for a population of 8million and the impacts of climate change.
You don't see any contradiction there? None at all?
How can any environmentalist advocate for the doubling of the population?0 -
Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.
Our long history is of a dispersed rural population. We don't need to copy any one else. This is largely a red herring in the climate/environment debate.0 -
Clarence Boddiker wrote: »You don't see any contradiction there? None at all?
How can any environmentalist advocate for the doubling of the population?
Eh... I'm not advocating.
This is going to happen.
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-plfp/populationandlabourforceprojections2017-2051/populationprojectionsresults/
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/21/devastating-climate-change-could-see-one-million-migrants-a-year-entering-eu-by-2100
http://climatemigration.org.uk/europe-climate-refugees-migration/0 -
Sheep_shear wrote: »It will when the Greens let the wolves loose on the countryside. The plan is coming together...
The plan of wolves was something that could be maybe done in 50 years.....not really as interesting if yoou read the actual comments0 -
It might be embarrassing if they release the wolves before they depopulate the countryside. Any crowd that can seriously consider such a moronic idea is so far detached from reality that there is no way back.0
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Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.
Lord above, what you're advocating is totally disconnected from reality.
There's a whole Ag support industry living cheek to cheek with farmers in rural settings. Just in a short distance from my house, there's a small farmer who also services industrial machinery in the two local towns that we live between, a mechanic/dairy farmer, hairdresser, numerous couple with one working in each of the above towns, an unemployed couple, a retired couple, a gardener, numerous beef farmers also working in the Ag services sector, mart manager, local school teacher, tyre repair/replacements, car mechanic etc etc etc.
It's like the reality of a whole intertwined working community cannot exist unless there's big signs and car parking spaces outside each and every one of them.
We don't need big neon flashing signs to attract customers and indicate there's a business there, simple word of mouth from others using the services will suffice.
Totally out of touch with rural life would be the kindest thing I could say about GP attitudes to rural Ireland.0 -
Jimmy Garlic wrote: »It might be embarrassing if they release the wolves before they depopulate the countryside. Any crowd that can seriously consider such a moronic idea is so far detached from reality that there is no way back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_reintroduction
Plenty of other countries also discussing as well as Ireland.0 -
Jebus H. Criste.Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.0 -
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Absolutely agree with this. In fact, I would go further and impose an extra tax on houses outside communities, unless they are owned by working farmers.
There is no need for anyone to live outside villages, with the possible exception of farmers, but it should be noted that in many countries in Europe, many farmers live remotely from their farm.
So what is you plan for those that already live outside villages and towns?
Name one of these countries that you talk of. I guarantee that in every country there are houses outside of towns and villages.
How would forcibly moving people to villages help?
Most villages are so isolated and small at the moment that it is still difficult if not impossible to provide public transport and services to them
I could see a reasonable the argument for people who choose to live outside towns or villages having to pay the full cost of connecting to electric, sewers, water etc.
I simply cant see how you are ever going to be able to tell people where or where not they choose to live0
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