Priests and their obsession with Status and Wealth

Ann G

Just read June 2019 article from The Atlantic "Abolish the Priesthood- To save the Church, Catholics must detach themselves from the clerical hierarchy—and take the faith back into their own hands".

It states correctly in my opinion "The clerical system’s obsession with status thwarts even the merits of otherwise good priests and distorts the Gospels’ message....."

The obsession with status and wealth has bothered me for some time.
As well as the large houses and big cars, holidays, I could never understand how priests get away with collecting vast sums of cash for themselves (outside of salary). Cash from from mass cards, sympathy cards etc, cash for conducting weddings, funeral, cash for saying mass for somebody. Priests expect cash payments. I was always under the impression this went into church funds but recently I discovered this was not the case. In rural Ireland, these sums are significant. For example 50 mass cards for one deceased with £20 given to the priest to sign (which would be the norm in rural communities) is £1000. Plus cash for conducting the funerals. There were 100 mass cards when my father died - a large number of them personally signed by priests. In my experience (and minimal research) they get £50-£100 cash for funerals, £200-£300+ for weddings, all cash and all into their personal back pocket.

This is a significant amount of non-salaried non-taxed cash into their back pockets.
These same priests build huge houses in rural Ireland for their retirement. How have they got away with it. They must have dodgy tax advisers advising them and helping them to avoid tax. This isn't church salary, nor church revenue. Why is Revenue not investigating these priests? Are they exempt from investigating? Are they putting these properties in other people’s names – e.g. family members? This is a scam that should be investigated.

Why do we never hear about this? Is there just too much scandal and this does not rate that highly. It grates to see them build these huge houses in rural Ireland with the best of the best in not very well off communities, who have effectively paid for these houses. Unbelievable to think it is still happening....

smacl

At a guess this relates to the church having a charitable status and being tax exempt. I agree with the premise of the article that Catholics in this country might be better off with out the church hierarchy as it currently exists, not least because they're clearly opposed on moral and ethical grounds, as seen in recent referendums.

PCeeeee

I was brought up a Catholic but have grown away from it over the years. The status and wealth thing comes right from the very top. Look at the Vatican and church 'leaders'. It resembles a monarchy as much as anything else (I know the pope is elected but still).

If, as is taught, Jesus arrives back, rocks up to the Vatican to see the leader of his church on Earth. Does any Christian think he'll look around and go yeah, this is exactly what I mean lads, fair play?

magicbastarder

Strangely, I've gotten to know the PP of the local church and he's driving a car worth a couple of hundred quid at most and living frugally. The previous chap was the polar opposite, he spent money on the house like it was going out of fashion.

Das Reich

PCeeeee wrote: »

I was brought up a Catholic but have grown away from it over the years. The status and wealth thing comes right from the very top. Look at the Vatican and church 'leaders'. It resembles a monarchy as much as anything else (I know the pope is elected but still).

If, as is taught, Jesus arrives back, rocks up to the Vatican to see the leader of his church on Earth. Does any Christian think he'll look around and go yeah, this is exactly what I mean lads, fair play?

"His church"?

PCeeeee

Das Reich wrote: »

"His church"?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Catholics (if I remember correctly, it has been some time) consider their faith the faith of Jesus and thus their church his church.

Das Reich

PCeeeee wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your question. Catholics (if I remember correctly, it has been some time) consider their faith the faith of Jesus and thus their church his church.

If they consider then they should read the bible a bit more. Islam is way closer to Christianism than Catholicism is.

Ann G

At a guess this relates to the church having a charitable status and being tax exempt....."

but it is not going to the Church, it is going to individuals. It is outrageous that we all pay our taxes and these individuals are raking it in. This money should be declared.

smacl

Ann G wrote: »

At a guess this relates to the church having a charitable status and being tax exempt....."

but it is not going to the Church, it is going to individuals. It is outrageous that we all pay our taxes and these individuals are raking it in. This money should be declared.

I agree entirely, but then I don't think the Church or any religious body should be generally tax exempt in the first place. If they do charitable work that charitable work and directly related expenses should be tax exempt in the same way as any other charity but nothing beyond that. Spreading the message of Christianity for example would be more akin to marketing in my opinion rather than charity.

Hotblack Desiato

smacl wrote: »

At a guess this relates to the church having a charitable status and being tax exempt.

Individual priests are certainly not tax exempt though and are expected to pay PAYE and PRSI.

As for the OP's concerns about the effects of this on spreading the "gospel message", I regard the gospels as mythology at best, harmful nonsense at worst, as do most other posters here I would expect. Maybe the Christianity forum would be a better place to ask?

PCeeeee wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand your question. Catholics (if I remember correctly, it has been some time) consider their faith the faith of Jesus and thus their church his church.

Jesus (if he even existed) lived and died as a jew. Christianity was invented decades after his death/lost weekend.

PukkaStukka

The church as an institution is not something I will defend for the same reasons that most people here would instantly agree with.


But, speaking as the brother in law of a priest, the notion they are obsessed with status and wealth is quite frankly ridiculous. Most diocess have little money and very few priests. Their average age is climbing constantly due to falling vocations. Their funding is poor due to falling mass attendances. Their priests workload is astronomical: there's still the same number of weddings, baptisms, communions and confirmations, and individual priests are running multiple parishes on their own. Funerals are through the roof as present thanks to COVID. Mental health issues and stress are BIG issues. My brother in law leads a very frugal existence. He doesn't earn enough to.have anything remotely resembling a trapping of wealth. And nor do his peers. In fact, if you work out an hourly rate of pay from his hours worked against his earning, he's paid below the minimum wage and is working way in excess of the working time directives.

So to cut to the chase, he doesn't earn enough to be preoccupied with wealth, and is too busy to be concerned with either wealth or status. Especially at a time when there is just so much grief about.

As the previous poster pointed out this is being sorted by attrition.

Some priests do appear interested in wealth. Maybe that's in the past.

In my home town the retiring Canon (seemed a nice man, was a friend of my dad) took a site the local scouts used to use and built a huge house. Its size made no sense, and seemed out if character from what I knew of him.

one world order

Das Reich wrote: »

If they consider then they should read the bible a bit more. Islam is way closer to Christianism than Catholicism is.

This deserves a face palm. Islam denies Jesus died on a cross and Mohammed behaved the total opposite to Jesus. Christianity says we are all sinners and Jesus took the punishment for our sin by dying on the cross. This is why we have so many people attacking Christianity because they love their sin. To recognise Jesus as their saviour means turning away from their sin and therefore for many people, they choose to attack Christianity instead and will have to meet God's wrath on their time of judgement.

PCeeeee

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Jesus (if he even existed) lived and died as a jew. Christianity was invented decades after his death/lost weekend.

Unarguably so. I was making the point that the accumulation of wealth by the organisation that purports to live by his teachings is at odds with their description of his teaching.

Hotblack Desiato

"Sin" is a ridiculous concept (never mind original sin.)

I don't attack christianity as such, people can believe what they want however silly it may be (and, let's face it, an awful lot of stuff believers of all types are expected to swallow is just utterly silly). I just want it to stay out of my life, stop screwing the taxpayer to fund its activities, stop trying to brainwash my kids in school and stop trying to influence the civil laws to reflect their doctrines.

one world order

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

"Sin" is a ridiculous concept (never mind original sin.)

I don't attack christianity as such, people can believe what they want however silly it may be (and, let's face it, an awful lot of stuff believers of all types are expected to swallow is just utterly silly). I just want it to stay out of my life, stop screwing the taxpayer to fund its activities, stop trying to brainwash my kids in school and stop trying to influence the civil laws to reflect their doctrines.

It's why the world is so messed up. Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve were deceived by the devil and creation has fallen ever since. It's important because we exist in this world in the physical and spiritual. When we die the soul leaves this world and the sin we've committed can only be washed away by a saviour. The alternative is not to adhere to God, people decide their own morality and society becomes more broken as people choose more sinful lives rather than humbly living godly lives.

Gooey Looey

one world order wrote: »

It's why the world is so messed up. Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve were deceived by the devil and creation has fallen ever since. It's important because we exist in this world in the physical and spiritual. When we die the soul leaves this world and the sin we've committed can only be washed away by a saviour. The alternative is not to adhere to God, people decide their own morality and society becomes more broken as people choose more sinful lives rather than humbly living godly lives.

We've got a live one here folks!

one world order

one world order wrote: »

It's why the world is so messed up. Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve were deceived by the devil and creation has fallen ever since. It's important because we exist in this world in the physical and spiritual. When we die the soul leaves this world and the sin we've committed can only be washed away by a saviour. The alternative is not to adhere to God, people decide their own morality and society becomes more broken as people choose more sinful lives rather than humbly living godly lives.

Society has never been so caring. Society has put health before economics world wide.

Besides, you're peddling your myths in the wrong area - you're literally preaching to the unconverted. And simply repeating myths isn't going to convert anyone.

SouthWesterly

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

stop trying to influence the civil laws to reflect their doctrines.

Absolutely, let's bring back slavery and child labour. After all, it was Christians who campaigned for their abolition. And as for murder, theft, adultery, lying. Sure they were Judeo/Christian concepts and were deemed to be wrong by followers of a fable.

SouthWesterly

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Society has never been so caring. Society has put health before economics world wide.

Who are you kidding? People are just afraid of dying and being so full of fear, one has to wonder how effective their worldview is.

Kylta

Deleted User wrote: »

As the previous poster pointed out this is being sorted by attrition.

Some priests do appear interested in wealth. Maybe that's in the past.

In my home town the retiring Canon (seemed a nice man, was a friend of my dad) took a site the local scouts used to use and built a huge house. Its size made no sense, and seemed out if character from what I knew of him.

Years ago in the local dublin parish there was a young priest who newly arrived in the parish, the priest being you was to officiate at christening, wedding, funerals etc of young people. Then all of a suddenly he was removed from the parish and sent to the country. It seemed the young priest was getting the old priests income and was removed from the parish. Has a lapsed christian (am spiritual tha religious) I'd have more respect for a priest whose conviction comes before his financial rewards.
I also know a priest who was a member of a very exclusive golf club back in the day.

In regards to religion I respect a person for their religious beliefs as long as its not forced on people.

Hotblack Desiato

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Absolutely, let's bring back slavery and child labour. After all, it was Christians who campaigned for their abolition.

Ehh, other christians used the bible to justify both.

And as for murder, theft, adultery, lying. Sure they were Judeo/Christian concepts and were deemed to be wrong by followers of a fable.

Adultery is not a crime nor should it be (although I and many other people believe it to be immoral, nonetheless.)

Theft - RCC has effectively stolen hundreds of millions from the Irish taxpayer by transferring liability for its crimes.

Murder - the Ten Commandments concept of murder only referred to fellow jews. There are any number of 'righteous' murders in the bible.

Lying - 'mental reservation' where an RC bishop lies in order to protect what he sees as the greater good i.e. shielding paedophiles.

But yeah, where would we be without religion-inspired morals... :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

one world order wrote: »

It's why the world is so messed up. Sin entered the world when Adam and Eve were deceived by the devil and creation has fallen ever since. It's important because we exist in this world in the physical and spiritual. When we die the soul leaves this world and the sin we've committed can only be washed away by a saviour. The alternative is not to adhere to God, people decide their own morality and society becomes more broken as people choose more sinful lives rather than humbly living godly lives.

Whatever about the rest of that supernatural conjecture, genetics proves that humans did not descend from one male and one female - there was no Adam and Eve. There was no seven day creation. There was no global flood and animals two by two. The earth is not the centre of the universe, etc. So if the book of genesis is all demonstrably bunk, why should we pay any heed to the rest of it?

robindch

smacl wrote: »

[...] this relates to the church having a charitable status and being tax exempt [...]

https://twitter.com/JohnCleese/status/1254483538876887041

one world order

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Society has never been so caring. Society has put health before economics world wide.

Besides, you're peddling your myths in the wrong area - you're literally preaching to the unconverted. And simply repeating myths isn't going to convert anyone.

So would I need a lock for my bike. Years ago when Ireland was religious you could leave a bike anywhere. Drugs, crime, awful music, multiple sexual partners, STDs, depression, anxiety, performance based workplaces, lack of purpose, the list is endless are far worse now.

one world order

Gooey Looey wrote: »

We've got a live one here folks!

I'll soon be kicked out for not adhering to the atheist worldview the MSM push.

one world order

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Absolutely, let's bring back slavery and child labour. After all, it was Christians who campaigned for their abolition. And as for murder, theft, adultery, lying. Sure they were Judeo/Christian concepts and were deemed to be wrong by followers of a fable.

Slavery and child labour was never encouraged. Another false lie created.

Kylta

It's

one world order wrote: »

So would I need a lock for my bike. Years ago when Ireland was religious you could leave a bike anywhere. Drugs, crime, awful music, multiple sexual partners, STDs, depression, anxiety, performance based workplaces, lack of purpose, the list is endless are far worse now.

Is this around the time of when the children in homes were being abused by priests?
Peoples concepts of morals and principles of the pass have changed with modernity in this country, ie drugs wasn't widespread then but alcoholics were in abudance.

Gooey Looey

one world order wrote: »

I'll soon be kicked out for not adhering to the atheist worldview the MSM push.

No quite the opposite, we're getting a good laugh at you quoting myths and fables as facts

one world order

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Whatever about the rest of that supernatural conjecture, genetics proves that humans did not descend from one male and one female - there was no Adam and Eve. There was no seven day creation. There was no global flood and animals two by two. The earth is not the centre of the universe, etc. So if the book of genesis is all demonstrably bunk, why should we pay any heed to the rest of it?

Genetics can't prove there wasn't one man and woman created from the beginning. No proof to say 7 day creation didn't happen. There is evidence flooding in Iraq and other Sumerian cities. The old cities of Sodam and Gomorrah exist today covered in white sulphur which cannot be found anywhere else and shows old temples that melted inwards. Bible also says earth hangs on nothing. Book of genesis can't be disproven and there is some evidence that verify it is correct.

one world order

Kylta wrote: »

It's

Is this around the time of when the children in homes were being abused by priests?
Peoples concepts of morals and principles of the pass have changed with modernity in this country, ie drugs wasn't widespread then but alcoholics were in abudance.

There will always be people that choose evil over good, but to abandon God and for everyone to live ungodly lives means the temptations of sining become far too easier.