Oliver Plunkett St. is no longer a pedestrianised street.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

the beer revolu wrote: »

For me, it's not so much the physics of cars and pedestrians on OPS. It's the mindset of our powers that be that so easily and readily default to the idea that more cars in the city centre is a good thing.

And their inability to provide increased footpath space, cycling infrastructure among other things, even during a pandemic.

They still haven't reduced traffic on the Marina also.

Even Dublin City Council are doing better. Installing new cycle lanes and widening footpath space.

Other cities are miles ahead.

Black_Knight

the beer revolu wrote: »

For me, it's not so much the physics of cars and pedestrians on OPS. It's the mindset of our powers that be that so easily and readily default to the idea that more cars in the city centre is a good thing.

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote:

And their inability to provide increased footpath space, cycling infrastructure among other things, even during a pandemic.

The "increased footpath space" isn't needed right now. There's loads of path space for the current restricted volume of pedestrians (from what i've observed). If it's needed in general, then that's a different matter. Right now, OPS is open because of Covid 19.

cc

Black_Knight wrote: »

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?


The "increased footpath space" isn't needed right now. There's loads of path space for the current restricted volume of pedestrians (from what i've observed). If it's needed in general, then that's a different matter. Right now, OPS is open because of Covid 19.

Sorry, the amount of space required for cars is what's not needed right now given the low volumes. There is plenty of space to park within a 2 min walk to the market. People mixing up economic arguments in place public health restrictions aren't compatible.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

The health risks that come with increased motor traffic in the city centre are proven and well known.

OPS is one of the only pedestrianised streets in the city (apart from Patrick's Street bus priority hours) - City Hall doing nothing for pedestrians, cyclists etc during a pandemic, while opening this street up to cars without any consultation, at the click of a button, shows they have very little backbone in terms of making Cork a nicer place for pedestrians and people to live & enjoy.

We're seeing what other cities are doing. This is a backwards step.

Some may not agree, but we can all agree that this is a car-centric move that puts the safety and comfort of pedestrians last on City Halls list of priorities. And it's shameful.

Black_Knight

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

The health risks that come with increased motor traffic in the city centre are proven and well known.

Increased motor traffic? Are you serious!?

I give up. Traffic is down, pedestrians are down. The change is temporary.

Totally agree outside of the pandemic, but right now it's only helpful.

User142

Would someone please inform the cars now using OPS that they are supposed to stop and buy something. Because all I'm seeing is people trying to shave a few minutes off their commute by making an illegal right turn at the end. I guess fair play for them respecting the car ban on Patrick St....

timmyjimmy

Black_Knight wrote: »

Increased motor traffic? Are you serious!?

I give up. Traffic is down, pedestrians are down. The change is temporary.

Totally agree outside of the pandemic, but right now it's only helpful.

If traffic is down, why do cars need OPS to drive down? Surely there's plenty of room elsewhere to park with less traffic in town. They manage without it during normal times. BTW, I live within 2km of the market and I've been going there quite regularly during the crisis. It's absolute bliss walking/cycling to town without cars around, the less of them in town, the better.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

User142 wrote: »

Would someone please inform the cars now using OPS that they are supposed to stop and buy something. Because all I'm seeing is people trying to shave a few minutes off their commute by making an illegal right turn at the end. I guess fair play for them respecting the car ban on Patrick St....

Yep. Even taxis use that illegal right turn.

It's mostly used as a rat run. Should be closed to thru traffic all day besides loading hours IMO.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Increased motor traffic? Are you serious!?

I give up. Traffic is down, pedestrians are down. The change is temporary.

Totally agree outside of the pandemic, but right now it's only helpful.

Yes. Of course there's increased motor traffic, on a street that should be pedestrianised (I.e. No traffic at all!).. Opening it just asks cars to use it as a rat run to cut through town and use the illegal right turn to get towards Washington Street, as already mentioned, and as I see with my own eyes on a daily basis.

I work in a premises on the street - very few stop, it's a rat run for the most part. Anyone who thinks it's improving English Market trade needs a reality check.

Poor form from Cork City Council, once again placing motorists ahead of pedestrians. It's arguably the nicest Street in the city and they've undone the best thing about it - calm, clean and no traffic barging past. Also now hard to social distance due to this.

We'll have to agree to disagree I guess, as you obviously don't see any issue yourself.

I see it as just another backwards step from city management.

PreCocious

Black_Knight wrote: »

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?

So footfall has decreased and the solution is to provide less space for footfall ?

I drive into town every two weeks (a Tuesday lunchtime) for a market collection. I park in a traffic lane for the 5 mins it takes. It doesn't affect traffic. I have noticed that on my last trip the number of pedestrians had much increased. The number of cars seemed much the same.

The Council seem to respond to people with perceived power - the traders associations, the GAA, the vintners. They never seem to bat for the people who actually go into town and spend money.

robinbird

PreCocious wrote: »

So footfall has decreased and the solution is to provide less space for footfall ?

I drive into town every two weeks (a Tuesday lunchtime) for a market collection. I park in a traffic lane for the 5 mins it takes. It doesn't affect traffic. I have noticed that on my last trip the number of pedestrians had much increased. The number of cars seemed much the same.

The Council seem to respond to people with perceived power - the traders associations, the GAA, the vintners. They never seem to bat for the people who actually go into town and spend money.

I think that is the issue. It is the position of the commercial traders and the council that it is only those that come in to town in cars that spend money.
As well it is their position that commercial sales are the most important thing, the pedestrian non commercial experience is discounted as irrelevant as it does not generate profit. Now I believe this thinking is deeply flawed. Firstly there should be some focus on the city centre that isn't connected to spending money and materialism and secondly that if people come in to town because it is a pleasant experience they might also spend money.

That way of thinking is why the panaban failed. It was brought back but in name only as it was deliberately not enforced.

So when business was down because of the lockdown what they requested and got from the council was to end all pedestrianisation in the city centre, have free car promotions and allow cars park wherever they wanted. On the basis that that social distancing and a pleasant experience for city dwellers has to be disregarded if it in any way interferes with motorists that want to shop.

65535

The street should be covered over and used as a shopping district - it would be ideal to sit outside a café there in the rain !

namloc1980

Black_Knight wrote: »

I see it as this. Footfall in the city center has dropped drastically because of covid 19. Lets say it's 10% of what it usually is. If allowing cars onto OPS to get better access to restaurants/markets etc adds even a few % more people into those businesses, isn't it a good thing?.

Again I'll ask: your belief is that people are now driving in to town to shop etc, who otherwise wouldn't purely because OPS is open to them. Have you anything at all to support that belief?

opus

Someone needs to have a word with the Princes St traders that more cars is what they need as they don't seem to be onside with the council!

Business owners seek outdoor dining for Cork's Princes Street

j8wk2feszrnpao

robinbird wrote: »

It is the position of the commercial traders and the council that it is only those that come in to town in cars that spend money.
As well it is their position that commercial sales are the most important thing, the pedestrian non commercial experience is discounted as irrelevant as it does not generate profit.

A load of crap. Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking..... there’s been an effort to reduce car flow in the center.

Why do you need to resort to fiction to drive your ideology?

robinbird

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A load of crap. Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking..... there’s been an effort to reduce car flow in the center.

Why do you need to resort to fiction to drive your ideology?

Oh dear. One at a time.

Panaban was deliberately never enforced and now it has been abandoned altogether

Cycle lanes. The refusal of the council to take any action against car parking in cycle lanes has been a bone of contention for many years. As one example the main cycle lane between the city and the west on washington street has been used as a taxi rank every evening for years. Council and gardai have refused to take any action.

Dedicated bus lanes. Taxis are allowed drive in bus lanes. As well no action is taken against cars that use dedicated bus lanes. As an example the bus lane on Washington Street is meant to be reserved for buses and taxis for 3 hours out of every 20. Yet during those 3 hours the "dedicated" bus lane is full of private cars.


Free parking promotions and opening up all pedestrian streets to parking and for use as rat runs. How exactly is that reducing car flow?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A load of crap. Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking..... there’s been an effort to reduce car flow in the center.

Why do you need to resort to fiction to drive your ideology?

Limited cycle lanes in the city centre, abused by taxis and motorists on a daily basis, no safe direct connection to CIT with 12k students or most of the suburbs, none to the Northside.

7km of Bus lanes in the entire city.

South Mall basically a car park with no dedicated cycle or bus infrastructure. Angle parking taking up even more space.

The council are not trying whatsoever.

Delighted to see the calls from Princes St traders and Cork Chamber - the fact they have to do this, shows that City Hall seem to have no cop on or ambition whatsoever.

They'll see in years to come what their over-reliance on car traffic will cause.

Plenty of new city centre workplaces and housing on the way. The city cannot keep taking more and more cars.

They'll find this out soon, the hard way, mark my words. Congestion, congestion, congestion. Cork will grind to a halt, and pedestrians will go elsewhere.

j8wk2feszrnpao

robinbird wrote: »

Panaban was deliberately never enforced and now it has been abandoned altogether

We'd another tin foil hatter on here with that approach. Do you have proof of it never been enforced? I was rarely in the city, yet saw it being enforced on two occasions.

robinbird wrote: »

Free parking promotions and opening up all pedestrian streets to parking and for use as rat runs. How exactly is that reducing car flow?

Reducing car flow by implementing Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking. Not all have been perfect, and I was immediately critical of the council or having a ban without some type of system to enforce it. But they have been done, so not all car centered actions. Be ignorant of that if you wish. Just because you don't like it, there are people who use cars, they are consumers as well.

Opening OPT as a temporary measure, as already explained, isn't some major car centered plan. Just because the usual brigade get riled up, doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

namloc1980

munstermagic11 wrote: »

We'd another tin foil hatter on here with that approach. Do you have proof of it never been enforced? I was rarely in the city, yet saw it being enforced on two occasions.


Reducing car flow by implementing Pana ban, cycle lanes, dedicated bus lanes, reduced on street parking. Not all have been perfect, and I was immediately critical of the council or having a ban without some type of system to enforce it. But they have been done, so not all car centered actions. Be ignorant of that if you wish. Just because you don't like it, there are people who use cars, they are consumers as well.

Opening OPT as a temporary measure, as already explained, isn't some major car centered plan. Just because the usual brigade get riled up, doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.

The usual brigade? It's great to just put people into some box isn't it?!

I think the point here isn't just the opening of OPS, it's that the City Council default position is to cater for the private car and that speaks to their overall attitude. Other cities around the world are using this time to enhance public realm for active travel and mobility. Cork City Council default to the mindset of catering for the car. It's that overall mindset that hinders progress in Cork.

opus

I listened to this podcast recently, a very interesting look back at how the car companies got cities designed to suit them rather than the inhabitants. There's a chance to change this now with the advent of driverless cars but jury is out on whether or not this will happen.

The Fault in Our Cars

The first pedestrian killed by a car in the Western Hemisphere was on New York’s Upper West Side in 1899. One newspaper warned that “the automobile has tasted blood.” Today, driverless cars present their own mix of technological promise and potential danger. Can the reaction to that 1899 pedestrian tragedy help us navigate current arguments about safety, blame, commerce, and public space?

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Saw on Twitter the Marina is finally being properly pedestrianised.

For 3 months anyway. Hopefully will be permanent after that. A step in the right direction.

User142

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cork-eyes-pedestrianisation-plan-to-revive-city-centre-when-covid-19-restrictions-are-lifted-996822.html

One-way systems are likely on footpaths and sections of bike lanes may be sacrificed

Restarting the city’’s economy will require "compromise and tolerance", the chair of the city council’’s strategic policy committee on transport and mobility, Cllr Des Cahill, said. He issued a direct appeal to cycling campaigners to consider the greater good

"We are all in this together. We can’’t put one lobby group’’s interests above others," Cllr Des Cahill said. "Footpath space will be reduced, road space will be reduced, and cycling space will be reduced. The cycling community will have to accept that it’’s for the greater good. But it will be a temporary measure."

God help us if this is the best the council has. One way footpaths? That's our brainy solution to avoid following the common sense measures other European cities are taking to combat COVID.... Its telling when you google one this idea its only cities in North America adopting the idea.

I won't be expecting much from the council to help people going about their business to social distance and aid rebooting the local economy anyway. Free parking will probably be the most pricey measure the council will take. Reopening the OPS rat run has set the theme of whats to come in the next 12 months.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Cahill's comments are unfair and uncalled for. These "lobby" groups are volunteer groups, who have been calling for pedestrianisation and other initiatives for years.

In fact, this evening Des and Terry Shannon claimed credit for pedestrianising the Marina. Terry objected to it a while back so I'm not sure why he's claiming credit for it now. Also haven't heard a peep out of him til now, and he's elected in my constituency.

Cork needs to get rid of the dinosaur cllrs. They're only holding us back.

namloc1980

One way footpaths...... that's actually comical. Wtf are they on in city hall??

timmyjimmy

Sacrifice cycle lanes? I guess that means they're going to stop cars parking in them

Curb Your Enthusiasm

timmyjimmy wrote: »

Sacrifice cycle lanes? I guess that means they're going to stop cars parking in them

That made me chuckle too.

You'd swear Cork was some progressive Amsterdam-esque utopia with cycle lanes on every street.

You'd barely notice cycle lanes here being removed, as there's usually a parked car or standing taxi over them most days anyway! Out of the 10 or so cycle lanes in the entire city, many are in a crap state too. City Hall are the ones who should be taking "a look at themselves".

These really are woeful ideas.

Limerick tried one way footpaths.

It was a joke. Instead of taking space away from cars, they made pedestrians go one-way around all the bridges. Didn't work anyhow.

robinbird

Don't think they have thought it through. The end of pedestrianisation in the city centre means they are now being required to come up with innovative solutions.
They are also hoping to give more pedestrian space to commercial business once they open up again. So between free for all parking, more cars using previously pedestrianised streets and business taking more space they have come up with

One way footpaths for pedestrians
Take cycle lanes back and repurpose them for the common good.

Don't thing one way footpaths are practical and there is very little designated cycle paths anyway and what is there is more often than not used for parking by taxis and cars.

rebs23

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Cork needs to get rid of the dinosaur cllrs. They're only holding us back.

Unfortunately not enough people are getting involved in politics. We need more people with expertise and more importantly experience to get involved.

Now is the time to be radical and adopt measures that illustrate to people that the City Centre is a safe and friendly place to visit. The proposal from the traders in Princess St is the way forward.
I have recently taken up cycling to work (the roads are quieter and safer) and it really has opened my eyes that that with such little effort such as opening up the city quays by the Marina ESB plant or a cycle lane down the Tivoli dual carriageway, we really could transform commuting.

timmyjimmy

rebs23 wrote: »

Unfortunately not enough people are getting involved in politics. We need more people with expertise and more importantly experience to get involved.

Now is the time to be radical and adopt measures that illustrate to people that the City Centre is a safe and friendly place to visit. The proposal from the traders in Princess St is the way forward.
I have recently taken up cycling to work (the roads are quieter and safer) and it really has opened my eyes that that with such little effort such as opening up the city quays by the Marina ESB plant or a cycle lane down the Tivoli dual carriageway, we really could transform commuting.

I've started cycling to work too as of late due to less cars on our roads. I would cycle more pre covid but I feel that I am taking my life into my own hands when cycling along Tivoli. It's not safe and there are some shocking drivers out there. I've actually seen a lot more people cycling to work due to the covid crisis, it's great to arrive to work all awake from getting a bit of exercise in the morning and i've lost a few extra pounds! I look forward to the covid restrictions being lifted but it also means that i'll probably stop cycling due to the roads becoming too dangerous again. I'll miss this It just goes to show how Cork City council are stuck in the dark ages with their car centric minds and lack of proper alternative infrastructure.

hans aus dtschl

timmyjimmy wrote: »

I would cycle more pre covid but I feel that I am taking my life into my own hands when cycling along Tivoli.

I don't understand the need for a 100kmh dual carriageway between Dunkettle roundabout and Silversprings (where it's funneled into/from a 60/50kmh single-lane road).

It turns into a car park at rush hour (either way) for that obvious reason.
It also seems to be an obvious candidate for a shared bus and cycle lane.

It's a significant barrier to active transport on the East of the city. It's not a nice road to walk or cycle.

It would cost almost nothing to rectify. Paint and paperwork.