Time to tax wealth - Covid cost Solution

markodaly

KyussB wrote: »

The article is very clear: Michael O'Leary is not against bailouts, he is only against selective bailouts.

Michael O'Leary is going to court to try and force the bailout of the entire airline industry.

I posted the exact quote from the article and still you persist with this fake news.

Put it this way, Ryanair would much rather other airlines to fail, so they can gather market share in that event.
Various European governments may baulk at the prospect at not only bailing out their own airlines, but being force to also give money also to the likes of Ryanair if the legal challenge is upheld.

He point is 100% spot on, fair is fair and the EU competition authority will agree with Ryanair on this basis I suspect. He knows the average EU citizen will stand up and take notice if their tax money is going to the likes of Ryanair. A much much harder pill to swallow for the average French or Italian.

markodaly

seamus wrote: »

See this is an example of circular logic. O'Leary earns lots of money because he manages lots of money and that deserves lots of money.

A Ryanair pilot flying a 737-200 is responsible for the welfare of a $4m piece of machinery and the lives of 136 people. Using standard calculations, that's a total value of about $140m of wealth that a pilot is responsible for, every minute that the aircraft is in the air. That's not to include the net wealth of the individuals involved nor the additional economic cost of a crash.

If Michael O'Leary dropped dead while at work, Ryanair would motor on without any loss of revenue. All he does is talk business and push numbers around on a screen. He's not special or unique.

If the pilot dropped dead while at work...

So the notion that O'Leary is creating, managing or providing more value is based on nothing. You can use any convenient numbers to justify his worth, but there's no logical or ethical basis for it.

O'Leary earns 100 times the average wage, but he doesn't work 100 times harder than the average worker. And he doesn't provide 100 times the value. All of the value he "manages" is created by the people he manages, not by him.

There is a lot of points which are hugely questionable in this post, but ill just focus on one of them

If Michael O'Leary dropped dead while at work, Ryanair would motor on without any loss of revenue. All he does is talk business and push numbers around on a screen. He's not special or unique.

Michael O'Leary, and I have no great love for him or Ryanair per say, is arguably Irelands best business man ever to grace our shores. If one was to do a list of Irelands greatest ever soccer players, the likes of Liam Brady, Roy Keane, Paul McGrath, Michael O'Leary would be up there on Irelands greatest ever business people list.

To take the soccer ananolgy further, sure Roy Keane just tackled a few people and passed the ball to more gifted players... sure ANYONE can do that, right? :pac:

But of course when Roy Keane hung up his boots and we see the Manchester United of today, we all know how valuable he is.

When Michael O'Leary leaves Ryanair, perhaps the company will motor along, perhaps not but I suspect the board have a succession plan in place, it will be their baby then. History is littered with examples of well run businesses being handed over to the next generation only within a decade or two for bankruptcy to take fold.

So, if M'OL is nothing special or unique how did he take a company with just a handful of leased planes to be the largest in Europe?
It just 'happened' like God willed it?
Dumb luck?
Destiny?
Providence?

Or maybe just maybe he implemented a very simple but successful business plan?

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

Dumb luck?
Destiny?
Providence?

Please don't get sensitive about this but yes, luck/provenance played a huge part. MO'L was the right man, in the right country, in the right company, at the right time. EU open skies made Ryanair.

Also I'd say the social capital MO'L arrived to the game with helped him no end. As much as you've unwittingly been indoctrinated to believe in the 'great man' or 'saviour' myth, don't be ashamed, as we're all subject to this pervasive indoctrination.

KyussB

markodaly wrote: »

I posted the exact quote from the article and still you persist with this fake news.

Put it this way, Ryanair would much rather other airlines to fail, so they can gather market share in that event.
Various European governments may baulk at the prospect at not only bailing out their own airlines, but being force to also give money also to the likes of Ryanair if the legal challenge is upheld.

He point is 100% spot on, fair is fair and the EU competition authority will agree with Ryanair on this basis I suspect. He knows the average EU citizen will stand up and take notice if their tax money is going to the likes of Ryanair. A much much harder pill to swallow for the average French or Italian.

Again here is your quote, showing their issue is that the bailout is selective, not that there is a bailout:

Ryanair told Europe’s top competition official that it may go to court to stop France and other countries from “selectively gifting billions of euros to their inefficient flag carriers”.

Further proof of this, is that Ryanair directly say they should get a bailout:

The national programmes should be modified so that Ryanair could get a share of the bailout packages by making sure loan guarantees and other perks are available to “all EU airlines in proportion to their share of traffic in a particular country,” Mr O’Leary said in the April 9th letter seen by Bloomberg

Mad_maxx

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

I get that everyone wants someone else to pay, that's understandable enough.

But there clearly is huge wealth disparity and according to the GINI index, room for more wealth taxes.

So how do we define 'the wealthy' and what is included in the term 'wealth'? Then how do we spread the new burden between them? Maybe break them down into degrees of wealth with the top crew paying more.

One poster suggested 100 times the minimum wage. But that measure relates to income rather then wealth.

The press occasionally publish lists of 'Irelands Richest', but they are not very accurate and often relate to families or groups rather then individuals.

So the problem remains. How do we define wealth. When does one become wealthy and liable to this new tax?

Inequality on a detrimental scale no doubt exists in many countries, the USA being the clearest example of the developed economies, there is no comparison between America and Ireland in this regard however

Inequality is not a big issue in this country

Mad_maxx

seamus wrote: »

See this is an example of circular logic. O'Leary earns lots of money because he manages lots of money and that deserves lots of money.

A Ryanair pilot flying a 737-200 is responsible for the welfare of a $4m piece of machinery and the lives of 136 people. Using standard calculations, that's a total value of about $140m of wealth that a pilot is responsible for, every minute that the aircraft is in the air. That's not to include the net wealth of the individuals involved nor the additional economic cost of a crash.

If Michael O'Leary dropped dead while at work, Ryanair would motor on without any loss of revenue. All he does is talk business and push numbers around on a screen. He's not special or unique.

If the pilot dropped dead while at work...

So the notion that O'Leary is creating, managing or providing more value is based on nothing. You can use any convenient numbers to justify his worth, but there's no logical or ethical basis for it.

O'Leary earns 100 times the average wage, but he doesn't work 100 times harder than the average worker. And he doesn't provide 100 times the value. All of the value he "manages" is created by the people he manages, not by him.

If MOL either died or resigned, the share price of Ryanair would take a hit, high profile CEO, s have a big impact on investment sentiment, o leary has always been a highly recognisable figure and that is real value

He is so much more than a bean counter, no other CEO of a European airline has anything like the recognisable profile

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Please don't get sensitive about this but yes, luck/provenance played a huge part. MO'L was the right man, in the right country, in the right company, at the right time. EU open skies made Ryanair.

So you are of the persuasion that these things just 'happen' like a gift from god or such?

I guess the same can be said so of any other person who excels in their field, from athletics, soccer, film, art, politics, literature....

Nelson Mandela's feats of liberating South Africa just happened
Michelangelo just happened to paint the Sistine chapel
Messi just happened to score all those goals for Barcelona
Lincoln just happened to be president during the American civil war
James Joyce just happened to write Ulysses

Essentially your argument that there are no extraordinary people in the world, their feats are mere dumb luck so we shouldn't learn nor study nor praise them.

Of course, luck plays a small part in anything, if Michelangelo was born 10,000 years earlier he would be limited to painting the odd cave that no one would probably see, but then that is a factious argument only brought to bear by grouchs who lack imagination.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

So you are of the persuasion that these things just 'happen' like a gift from god or such?

No.

Essentially your argument that there are no extraordinary people in the world, their feats are mere dumb luck so we shouldn't learn nor study nor praise them.

Oh I do think there are extraordinary people I just wouldn't class MO'L in the same league as them. That said I actually admire MO'L for destroying Aer Lingus' horrible monopoly. Ryaniar and MO'L did much more to democratise flying than AL ever did and maybe ever would have.

Nelson Mandela's feats of liberating South Africa just happened

Mandela would have died in jail had the international isolation SA been subject to not forced them to end apartheid. I have mixed feelings about Mandela and think in a more just world some of the wealth extracted from SA would have been returned in the form of reparations.

Michelangelo just happened to paint the Sistine chapel
Messi just happened to score all those goals for Barcelona
Lincoln just happened to be president during the American civil war
James Joyce just happened to write Ulysses

Okay we're discussing accumulating wealth from business and you've strayed into other areas. Regardless, you can't fake being good at sports and tbh the money that gets paid to sports people is obscene. I don't think MA and JJ died minted so we're not comparing like-with like.

Of course, luck plays a small part in anything,

Listen I'm just saying, the 'great man' thing is a myth. Have you been following the complete arse Elon Musk has been making of himself? People tend to confuse accumulation of capital with greatness. As Adam Smith said himself:

This disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and the powerful, and to despise, or, at least, to neglect persons of poor and mean condition, though necessary both to establish and to maintain the distinction of ranks and the order of society, is, at the same time, the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments. That wealth and greatness are often regarded with the respect and admiration which are due only to wisdom and virtue; and that the contempt, of which vice and folly are the only proper objects, is often most unjustly bestowed upon poverty and weakness, has been the complaint of moralists in all ages.

but then that is a factious argument only brought to bear by grouchs who lack imagination.

I wish you wouldn't try to upset me by suggesting I'm grouchy and lack imagination. If I was more sensitive that would be very hurtful.

snoopboggybog

What wage bracket are people classing wealthy as? People on good salaries are allready taxed to the brink.

80,000 salary is 6,666 a month with take home pay of 4324. Tax paid is 2342
40,000 salary is 3,333 a month with take home pay of 2636. Tax paid is 697

Paying over three times the amount of tax allready for someone on half the wages.

Yea lets tax them more :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Eric Cartman

snoopboggybog wrote: »

What wage bracket are people classing wealthy as? People on good salaries are allready taxed to the brink.

80,000 salary is 6,666 a month with take home pay of 4324. Tax paid is 2342
40,000 salary is 3,333 a month with take home pay of 2636. Tax paid is 697

Paying over three times the amount of tax allready for someone on half the wages.

Yea lets tax them more :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I dont know why people think 80k is a ‘super high income’ some people really have weird ideas about whats a lot of money.

na1

Geuze wrote: »

I fully agree that talent should be paid more...........but 100x times more????

The ratio has clearly increased over the last 50 years.

Also, the Board sub-committees tend to set pay rates, and so they favour their own.

The Swiss had a vote on capping CEO pay at 12x.

I'm not clear on the exact outcome.


We have a minimum wage, should we have a maximum wage?

What about Irish maid working on 10-15 euro an hour going on holiday to India, and staying at hotel where the local maid get 1 euro an hour?
Surely the purchasing power in India is not 15 times smaller?
Should the minimal wage in Ireland be adjusted?

na1

Cordell wrote: »

The CEO on 2m before taxes pays probably 500k in taxes, with all tax optimizations and loopholes and all. The one on 20k pays maybe 2k? Does the CEO gets 250x more services from the state?
.

The couple with 2 children an one minimal wage income in Ireland pays negative tax.

na1

seamus wrote: »

That's not really how it works though. Upper pay scales operate more like a cabal than a free market.

There are usually plenty of suitable individuals available at a cheaper rate, but they're not invited to apply, or they don't know anyone on the board. I don't need to go into it, but there is a specific cohort of people very overrepresented at the upper pay levels.

This is because people tend to hire people like themselves regardless of their suitability for a role. This is as true for hiring someone to pour coffee as it is hiring a CEO.

The argument that "we have to pay this much to get the best", is protectionism from CEO-types who know that if they pay less and still get good candidates, then their own inflated salaries are a sham.

Well, who is stopping you (or anyone else) to open a new company and hire all these "suitable individuals" at a fraction of what the other CEOs get paid?
Your company will get a huge profits because of much less spending?

Its the same story as with popular actors: they surely don't work 1000 times harder than some unknown actors, but the producers tend to hire popular actors as its more likely to guarantee the profits. although there are some exceptions - same as with CEO

na1

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes, when the dust settles we should take the knife to the wage packet of the monkey on 20k first and cocoon the salary of the CEO with the 2m salary. :pac: Some clowns on here are going to get a rude awakening.

The monkey on 20k is not feeding the budged, they are actually burden to the state, as they take more than they produce.

Eric Cartman

If anything the CEO paying 500k in tax is probably only recouping 1% of what he pays in state service costs , the single income household on 20k is recouping 1000% of what they pay in tax, if not more.

BorneTobyWilde

Or you could just ask Apple to pay their tax bill .

Eric Cartman

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Or you could just ask Apple to pay their tax bill .

And hundreds of people in hollyhill lose their jobs, apple leaves and the 2 billion of that 13 we get to keep covers the dole for 1 month and then were all worse off, a brilliant plan

LuasSimon

Any chance Larry Goodman or JP McManus would pay their taxs here as against Luxembourg and Switzerland ?

Is it any wonder the country has no money when two of Irelands richest individuals wont pay taxs in their own country and are both worth Billions.

Hubertj

LuasSimon wrote: »

Any chance Larry Goodman or JP McManus would pay their taxs here as against Luxembourg and Switzerland ?

Is it any wonder the country has no money when two of Irelands richest individuals wont pay taxs in their own country and are both worth Billions.

I think the charitable contributions that JP McManus makes in Ireland, especially the limerick area represents much better value. I’ve seen the benefit that his charity make to places like Cuan Mhuire.

Bass Reeves

Hubertj wrote: »

I think the charitable contributions that JP McManus makes in Ireland, especially the limerick area represents much better value. I’ve seen the benefit that his charity make to places like Cuan Mhuire.

I have to disagree entirely with that. nobody else has a choice how there tax money is spend so I would not be making exceptions. If many had the choice they might choose sport rather than Education or Health spending. It is one reason i have huge respect for Micheal O'Leary he is not a tax exile. It gets on my craw when I hear wealthy people giving sermons and being a tax exile.

na1

biko wrote: »

Everyone should shoulder the cost of the virus equally.

This would never happened, the top 10% earners contribute to 1/3 if the total revenue income, but only have 10% votes.
So the: "tax the richest" formula get support from around 50% to 90% population.

Yellow_Fern

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I have to disagree entirely with that. nobody else has a choice how there tax money is spend so I would not be making exceptions. If many had the choice they might choose sport rather than Education or Health spending. It is one reason i have huge respect for Micheal O'Leary he is not a tax exile. It gets on my craw when I hear wealthy people giving sermons and being a tax exile.

Tax exile have a right to be tax exiles. That been said Goodman isnt a tax exile. Some of his companies are not but he is.

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Okay we're discussing accumulating wealth from business and you've strayed into other areas. Regardless, you can't fake being good at sports and tbh the money that gets paid to sports people is obscene. I don't think MA and JJ died minted so we're not comparing like-with like.
.

You are missing my overarching point. It's not about wealth accumulation although often success in a respective field can earn good coin, it's about being exceptional in their respective field. From sports to art to business.

Michelangelo is not remembered for this salary or how much money he had in the bank, he is remembered for this artistic contributions.
Same as Messi. People don't watch youtube clips of him counting his money, they watch youtube clips of his amazing goals.
And so on...

In every area and sector, there are extraordinary people who are at the top of their game, I think we all agree with that. But the narrative is put forward that in business, the people who build up companies from next to nothing and make them world leaders in that sector are just 'lucky'. I was responding to the claim that M'OL is nothing special and without him, Ryanair would have become the Irish global success story they did become as if it was granted from God.

We have an unconscious bias here to the fore.

Why is that business people are just 'lucky' to be there at the right time, are nothing special where the next CEO can be plucked out of thin air, yet when James Joyce writes 'Ulysses' or Oscar Wilde writes 'The Picture of Dorian Grey' they are considered literary geniuses?

In my opinion, it stems from the Marxist thinking as noted by the likes of Paul Murphy last week. In their eyes, it is the workers who make know how a company operates and what success hinges on. Its as if every company operates as if its a coal mine or a textile mill. Not much of a business plan needed for those companies really.

Find coal, dig it up, put it on a train, and sell it to a Steelmill. Rinse and repeat.
Ok, maybe its more complicated than that now, with more regulation, supply chains, competition from renewables, but 150 years ago, it wasn't.

So, the average coal miner or baggage handler knows more about the business than as its CEO or upper management. We have Paul Murphy spout on national radio, that the likes of Willie Walsh (a pilot) and Michael O'Leary know nothing about running an airline.

Think about that for a second.
And this guy is an elected representative in the Dail!

Shocking but not surprising, as again, that is his world view. The guy who fuels the airplane I guess knows more. This brings me back to the narrative that good CEO's and business people are good for a reason, not lucky as some would pass it off.

So, in summary, next time you think a guy like M'OL is just lucky and nothing special, are you submitting to your own political bias when coming to that conclusion or not?

snoopboggybog

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I dont know why people think 80k is a ‘super high income’ some people really have weird ideas about whats a lot of money.

Its not a huge salary, but just trying to get across the point that the higher your wages the more tax you pay, I'm well over the 80K bracket.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

it stems from the Marxist thinking

Oh no, here we are. What exactly is Marxist thinking? Actually, might be better to not go down that rabbit hole.

Bass Reeves

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Tax exile have a right to be tax exiles. That been said Goodman isnt a tax exile. Some of his companies are not but he is.

Yes they have that right but people making the comparrison that JP making contributions to his preferred choices is not the equivlent of paying tax within the country.

It was interesting a few years ago Bono was giving out about our national contribution to the third World countries and U" as an entity were shielding some of there income in a tax vehicle in the Netherlands I think. Smurfit and Denis O Brien are similar in giving advice. The point I was making was that being a tax exile is legal you are not entitled to give sermons to the Irish people on what happens in the country

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

Any chance Larry Goodman or JP McManus would pay their taxs here as against Luxembourg and Switzerland ?

Is it any wonder the country has no money when two of Irelands richest individuals wont pay taxs in their own country and are both worth Billions.

While JP may be a tax exile, he still spends plenty in the country, not least his horse interests. He’s got some in training with just about every trainer in the country. That’s millions spread around in wages, etc.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Please don't get sensitive about this but yes, luck/provenance played a huge part. MO'L was the right man, in the right country, in the right company, at the right time. EU open skies made Ryanair.

Also I'd say the social capital MO'L arrived to the game with helped him no end. As much as you've unwittingly been indoctrinated to believe in the 'great man' or 'saviour' myth, don't be ashamed, as we're all subject to this pervasive indoctrination.

Oh FFS and if he determined Ryanair had no future he would have been out of there like a scalded cat. For example if Ireland had decided to up it's corporate tax to 50% he'd have been in the US or somewhere else enriching their economy.

We've tried taxing the sh1te out of business and nationalising everything in this country since the foundation of the state. All it achieves is dire poverty. Look at the pathetic state of the Irish economy in the 60s, when every other European economy was booming, we were stuck at a subsistence level.

If we ever get a left wing government here I'm on the next plane out once the COVID restrictions are lifted. Then ye can all queue for yere weekly ration of food at the nationalised supermarkets.

Eric Cartman

snoopboggybog wrote: »

Its not a huge salary, but just trying to get across the point that the higher your wages the more tax you pay, I'm well over the 80K bracket.

People over 50k a year pay almost 90% of the income tax receipts in ireland yet wanting to screw anyone except those people over is seen as immoral here.

Bass Reeves

Deleted User wrote: »

While JP may be a tax exile, he still spends plenty in the country, not least his horse interests. He’s got some in training with just about every trainer in the country. That’s millions spread around in wages, etc.

Micheal O'Leary pays his tax in the country and has horsed with a few different trainers as well as do a good few small business men. Just because he dose is no reason that he deserves a medal. Its a commercial venture.