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Time to tax wealth - Covid cost Solution

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    What financial wealth is parasitical on productive wealth?

    Pretty much every new company needs investment at the start to hire people, buy raw materials etc. This comes from "financial wealth" ie savings, issuing stock, venture capitalists etc. Take Amazon for example it made losses for years and was only sustained by investment from outside parties. Similarly Facebook, Twitter, Uberand Snapchat. A large amount of large Internet based companies were loss making for years and some still are. Without people taking a gamble and assuming the companies in question would be able to turn users into money and become self financing many household names would never have got off the ground.


    And that's before you talk about private pension schemes where wealth is accumulated and invested for years in order to provide for retirement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Investment comes from debt, from banks - who create the money from nothing, it's not taken from deposits (despite popular misconceptions).

    The money from the wealthy is simply not needed to fund investments. They invest it to make a return on it, because it'll do them little good to have inflatiion eat away at their money.

    The wealthy need industry/businesses to invest in, not the other way around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    You have too few posts and too recent a registration for me to reply to you. Others can confirm what I say.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    Pretty much every new company needs investment at the start to hire people, buy raw materials etc. This comes from "financial wealth" ie savings, issuing stock, venture capitalists etc. Take Amazon for example it made losses for years and was only sustained by investment from outside parties. Similarly Facebook, Twitter, Uberand Snapchat. A large amount of large Internet based companies were loss making for years and some still are. Without people taking a gamble and assuming the companies in question would be able to turn users into money and become self financing many household names would never have got off the ground.


    And that's before you talk about private pension schemes where wealth is accumulated and invested for years in order to provide for retirement.

    Thats a particular form of investment that is in fact wealth producing, but the bank lending in Ireland pre 2008 wasn't. No wealth is created when people buy houses, in particular second hand houses. There are plenty of examples of this.

    ( Some wealth is created when people buy new houses, clearly it generates economic activity, the building of the houses. However, as we saw, you can overbuild or over produce and the result is also a recession)

    No real wealth is created when stock markets go into a bubble either, by the way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Commercial banks create loans, they don't create money unless your definition of money includes loans. If this is the case then it is intentionally misleading to simply state that banks create money.

    The loans create money. It doesnt come from deposits as once taught. The remedial at this stage.

    The fact that people don't know this is interesting, of course it has policy implications. If you believe that all savings are loaned out then you would have a different opinion on passive wealth, or a wealth tax, than if you know the truth. If its loaned out then the wealth tax is useless, if it isnt the wealth tax will create economic activity.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    they take in deposits and lend a proportion out.

    They take in deposits and lend a multiple out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Nope, they don't even lend a multiple out :) Banks are not actually constrained by reserve requirements (which is what would be required, for a multiple to be loaned out - a reserve requirement of 20%, if it was a constraint, would allow a loan multiple of 5x) - banks are constrained by collateral requirements.

    What that means, is that as long as bank loans have enough collateral in the form of e.g. houses, business assets etc. (which, simplified, is a given, before the loan is given out, in most cases), which can be liquidated if the loan is defaulted on - then there is no further limitation on a banks ability to create money.

    The reason banks are not constrained by reserve requirements, is because banks loan out money first, and then shore up reserves afterwards. To shore up reserves, banks seek money on the interbank market - and if no other private banks have spare reserves/money, to lend on the interbank market, a bank will go to the central bank for a loan.

    In theory, a central bank could refuse to provide a loan - and this would enforce reserve requirements - but in practice, a central bank will never do this, because it is a practical impossibility - when the bank fails to shore up reserves, it would have to immediately recall the loan it gave out, which would be a breach of contract, and would cause chaos, as the business will have already spent the money, would need to recall expenditures, and the next business on would have spent the money, recalling expenditures etc. etc..

    This sounds like just a technicality, but in practice it means that reserve requirements do not place a limitation on lending - and that the entire concept of fractional reserve banking can be chucked in the bin.

    TLDR Loans create money, and the only limit is collateral requirements - reserve requirements, in practice, do not exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,670 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    FVP3 wrote: »
    The loans create money. It doesnt come from deposits as once taught. The remedial at this stage.

    The fact that people don't know this is interesting, of course it has policy implications. If you believe that all savings are loaned out then you would have a different opinion on passive wealth, or a wealth tax, than if you know the truth. If its loaned out then the wealth tax is useless, if it isnt the wealth tax will create economic activity.

    No loans do not create money. While all loans do not come from deposits most do. The rest mainly come from bonds. Where do these bonds come from. From pension funds and from company reserves. Not all large companies have debts some have large cash reserves. Ryanair is an example. Apple is another It will mainly buy bonds with this money. Some will do bonds for other companies, this can be relatively high risk, but a lot of companies will just take bank bonds.

    When the market becomes unsettle central banks will issue bonds to banks as they percieve these to be the experts in lending matters
    KyussB wrote: »
    Nope, they don't even lend a multiple out :) Banks are not actually constrained by reserve requirements (which is what would be required, for a multiple to be loaned out - a reserve requirement of 20%, if it was a constraint, would allow a loan multiple of 5x) - banks are constrained by collateral requirements.

    What that means, is that as long as bank loans have enough collateral in the form of e.g. houses, business assets etc. (which, simplified, is a given, before the loan is given out, in most cases), which can be liquidated if the loan is defaulted on - then there is no further limitation on a banks ability to create money.

    The reason banks are not constrained by reserve requirements, is because banks loan out money first, and then shore up reserves afterwards. To shore up reserves, banks seek money on the interbank market - and if no other private banks have spare reserves/money, to lend on the interbank market, a bank will go to the central bank for a loan.

    In theory, a central bank could refuse to provide a loan - and this would enforce reserve requirements - but in practice, a central bank will never do this, because it is a practical impossibility - when the bank fails to shore up reserves, it would have to immediately recall the loan it gave out, which would be a breach of contract, and would cause chaos, as the business will have already spent the money, would need to recall expenditures, and the next business on would have spent the money, recalling expenditures etc. etc..

    This sounds like just a technicality, but in practice it means that reserve requirements do not place a limitation on lending - and that the entire concept of fractional reserve banking can be chucked in the bin.

    TLDR Loans create money, and the only limit is collateral requirements - reserve requirements, in practice, do not exist.


    The bold part is rubbish 2008-2012 would never have happened if it was a fact.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    That money isnt normally hoarded. Its out doing something, usually in businesses. If it hoarded it will can be subject to negative interest rates. Normal people are shielded from this.

    Not really true - the trickle down effect has shown itself to be fundamentally flawed. The way to get money into the economy is to give it to lower earners who will immediately spend it, thus making it available to businesses directly. Not to banks who will hoard it and only lend it out at some cost to the businesses that are actually making things. Still less to the already wealthy who are as likely to spend it on a Picasso or a yacht as on normal businesses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭Field east


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    In this like many other countries there is a huge difference between taxing income and taxing wealth .
    Is it fair that someone with 40 Million in wealth only pays tax on their income of 100k pays 30k in tax whilst someone with no assets earning 60k pays 15K tax ?

    It’s a good question but answer me this . Would the person with assets of 40 million have been better off not accumulating those assets or his parents who he/she inherit aged from or whatever way he/she acquired those assets and get just an ordinary job being paid 60k a year. ?? ????

    Also , how would the gov make up for lost revenue re capital gains, capital acquisition taxes?????

    And have these assets you refer to anything to do with the provision of accommodation and if so who would step in?????

    And are any of these assets involved in providing employment?????

    A nd
    And
    And
    I could go on with other examples
    SO BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR in case you kill the goose that lays the golden egg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,558 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Field east wrote:
    A nd And And I could go on with other examples SO BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR in case you kill the goose that lays the golden egg


    Wealth needs to be put to go use, accumulation of it, particularly by continual asset price inflation, is not good use, it's not by productive means, it doesn't truly benefit many in society, as it becomes rent seeking, causing wealth to trickle up not down


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Overpaid CEOs, clearly.

    Shilling indicates payment.
    Where are my cheques?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    No loans do not create money. While all loans do not come from deposits most do. The rest mainly come from bonds. Where do these bonds come from. From pension funds and from company reserves. Not all large companies have debts some have large cash reserves. Ryanair is an example. Apple is another It will mainly buy bonds with this money. Some will do bonds for other companies, this can be relatively high risk, but a lot of companies will just take bank bonds.

    When the market becomes unsettle central banks will issue bonds to banks as they percieve these to be the experts in lending matters




    The bold part is rubbish 2008-2012 would never have happened if it was a fact.
    In 2008-2012 banks would not have met collateral requirements - so it was that which prevented them from lending, not reserve requirements.

    On a day to day basis it is a fact that banks lend first, and shore up reserves on the interbank market later - and that central banks will never refuse to shore up reserves on the interbank market, for a bank that has already given out loans that day. Show me an example of this ever happening.


    You are wrong about bank loans, they do create money - the Bank of England ended that debate 6 years ago - you only need to read
    the bolded text on the first page:
    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,558 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    KyussB wrote: »
    In 2008-2012 banks would not have met collateral requirements - so it was that which prevented them from lending, not reserve requirements.

    On a day to day basis it is a fact that banks lend first, and shore up reserves on the interbank market later - and that central banks will never refuse to shore up reserves on the interbank market, for a bank that has already given out loans that day.


    You are wrong about bank loans, they do create money - the Bank of England ended that debate 6 years ago - you only need to read
    the bolded text on the first page:
    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf

    baring in mind, so to did the Bundesbank, writing a similar paper


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,719 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    KyussB wrote: »
    People who think the wealthy will bugger off and take all their property/land, physical assets, skilled workers etc. with them, have been fetishizing Ayn Rand too long, and forgotten she's a writer of poor/childish fiction.

    I find this both funny and depressing at the same time.

    You are no problem writing paragraphs of nice theoretical narratives, with absolute no references or backing.

    Then you write stuff like the above, dismissing the proven concepts as 'captial flight' and 'brain drain' and the effects these have on a nations economy and society.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_flight
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight

    Brilliant!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    baring in mind, so to did the Bundesbank, writing a similar paper
    Yep, looks like they did :)
    ...
    In terms of volume, the majority of the money supply is made up of book money, which is created through transactions between banks and domestic customers.
    Sight deposits are an example of book money: sight deposits are created when a bank settles transactions with a customer, ie it grants a credit, say, or purchases an asset and credits the corresponding amount to the customer's bank account in return.
    This means that banks can create book money just by making an accounting entry: according to the Bundesbank's economists, "this refutes a popular misconception that banks act simply as intermediaries at the time of lending – ie that banks can only grant credit using funds placed with them previously as deposits by other customers".
    By the same token, excess central bank reserves are not a necessary precondition for a bank to grant credit (and thus create money).

    ...
    https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/topics/how-money-is-created-667392


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    markodaly wrote: »
    I find this both funny and depressing at the same time.

    You are no problem writing paragraphs of nice theoretical narratives, with absolute no references or backing.

    Then you write stuff like the above, dismissing the proven concepts as 'captial flight' and 'brain drain' and the effects these have on a nations economy and society.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_flight
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight

    Brilliant!
    Even when I twice cite two different central banks saying exactly what I said, proving it as fact - you state that it is both 'theory' and unreferenced...

    Everything you disagree with is (in words you have used) Communist, Nazi, merely 'theory' - even when it's just basic macroeconomics as described by central banks.

    You don't debate anything, you piss from the sidelines.

    Nothing I have said, discussed capital flight or human capital flight - and no policies I've discussed in the thread, has led to anyone attempting an argument linking them to either of those things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,558 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    KyussB wrote: »
    Yep, looks like they did :)
    ...
    In terms of volume, the majority of the money supply is made up of book money, which is created through transactions between banks and domestic customers.
    Sight deposits are an example of book money: sight deposits are created when a bank settles transactions with a customer, ie it grants a credit, say, or purchases an asset and credits the corresponding amount to the customer's bank account in return.
    This means that banks can create book money just by making an accounting entry: according to the Bundesbank's economists, "this refutes a popular misconception that banks act simply as intermediaries at the time of lending – ie that banks can only grant credit using funds placed with them previously as deposits by other customers".
    By the same token, excess central bank reserves are not a necessary precondition for a bank to grant credit (and thus create money).

    ...
    https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/topics/how-money-is-created-667392

    both papers are cited regularly by some economic commentators in regards the origins of money creation, its disturbing that many, some who really should know this stuff, still dont accept it


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Start at bottom and work way up

    Social welfare:
    Shut down the never ending child allowance, 3-4 kids, don’t care but Pick a max and stop, want anymore pay for them yourself
    Christmas bonus gone
    Stop at source rent for council houses, fix that then come back

    I dont agree with discouraging people having more children. We need more children to ensure a good ratio of people of pension age to workforce


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭amacca


    JJJackal wrote: »
    I dont agree with discouraging people having more children. We need more children to ensure a good ratio of people of pension age to workforce

    I do agree with it on the basis the system is being abused.....at least a limit on when the state will stop paying and father has to be known to claim assistance stop some lad impregnating as many as he can and claiming a portion of the benefits off all.....

    I think it would be reasonable to say we wont provide financial support after the third or 4th child ...if you want more that is of course your choice

    part of me thinks you shouldnt be having a large family if you cant afford to support it surely?

    A large family is expensive on those that work for it why should some people have them supported and working people pay through the nose...I kind of think thats areseways and unfair tbh but Im sure some fancy theory will prove me wrong


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    KyussB wrote: »
    In 2008-2012 banks would not have met collateral requirements - so it was that which prevented them from lending, not reserve requirements.

    On a day to day basis it is a fact that banks lend first, and shore up reserves on the interbank market later - and that central banks will never refuse to shore up reserves on the interbank market, for a bank that has already given out loans that day. Show me an example of this ever happening.


    You are wrong about bank loans, they do create money - the Bank of England ended that debate 6 years ago - you only need to read
    the bolded text on the first page:
    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf

    I have to be honest; i do not understand how money is not a Ponzi scheme. Esp after that article


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,016 ✭✭✭JJJackal


    amacca wrote: »
    I do agree with it on the basis the system is being abused.....at least a limit on when the state will stop paying and father has to be known to claim assistance stop some lad impregnating as many as he can and claiming a portion of the benefits off all.....

    I think it would be reasonable to say we wont provide financial support after the third or 4th child ...if you want more that is of course your choice

    part of me thinks you shouldnt be having a large family if you cant afford to support it surely?

    A large family is expensive on those that work for it why should some people have them supported and working people pay through the nose...I kind of think thats areseways and unfair tbh but Im sure some fancy theory will prove me wrong

    I actually think the opposite to you. We should pay more for child 4 upwards.

    Encourage families to have more kids.

    Thus more workers in 18 years time. Ireland at present has the land space for more people


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,558 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    amacca wrote: »
    I do agree with it on the basis the system is being abused.....at least a limit on when the state will stop paying and father has to be known to claim assistance stop some lad impregnating as many as he can and claiming a portion of the benefits off all.....

    I think it would be reasonable to say we wont provide financial support after the third or 4th child ...if you want more that is of course your choice

    part of me thinks you shouldnt be having a large family if you cant afford to support it surely?

    A large family is expensive on those that work for it why should some people have them supported and working people pay through the nose...I kind of think thats areseways and unfair tbh but Im sure some fancy theory will prove me wrong

    so what happens if the funds required to support these kids doesnt happen?


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,558 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    JJJackal wrote: »
    I actually think the opposite to you. We should pay more for child 4 upwards.

    Encourage families to have more kids.

    Thus more workers in 18 years time. Ireland at present has the land space for more people

    or maybe encourage better redistribution of wealth, possibley preventing over population of the planet, money creation is easy, redistributing it better is the hard bit


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    They take in deposits and lend a multiple out.

    They dont loan from deposits at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,963 ✭✭✭amacca


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    so what happens if the funds required to support these kids doesnt happen?

    Im saying we should not be supporting a free for all in terms of child support payments.....I dont think there will be funds unless there is a limit and we dont incentivise gaming the system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    JJJackal wrote: »
    I dont agree with discouraging people having more children. We need more children to ensure a good ratio of people of pension age to workforce

    We need more self funding couples to have more children, we need middle and upper class couples in europe to have more children, we do not need a lifetime welfare recipient or minimum wage single income household to have more children, we do not beed to import more unskilled workers to have children. We need to actively discourage people who cannot afford children from having children and encourage those who can afford it to have children, converting child benefit to a tax credit does this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    To be honest alot what of this talk boils down a person not understanding something and instead of acknowledging how little they know or researching it, they call it evil, parasitical etc. You have to be aware of law of unintented consequences.

    Who are you accusing of "not knowing anything". I am tired of the Econ 101 shysters in this thread with their banal cliches who then disappear when challenged. I answered with a simple example of how financial credit doesn't increase real wealth, Ireland in the last boom.

    (And everything comes back to Marxism doesnt it, if you cant make the argument).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    We need more self funding couples to have more children, we need middle and upper class couples in europe to have more children, we do not need a lifetime welfare recipient or minimum wage single income household to have more children, we do not beed to import more unskilled workers to have children. We need to actively discourage people who cannot afford children from having children and encourage those who can afford it to have children, converting child benefit to a tax credit does this.

    Funny enough I agree with that. I am probably coming across as a left winger in this thread, from my point of view though middle income people should be onboard with higher taxes on the actual rich. The middle is squeezed because it is squeezed on both ends.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Funny enough I agree with that. I am probably coming across as a left winger in this thread, from my point of view though middle income people should be onboard with higher taxes on the actual rich. The middle is squeezed because it is squeezed on both ends.

    those in the middle are not known as " the hated middle class " for nothing


    the rich always have the ear of power and the so called vulnerable are very well represented by media and countless quangos


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