Time to tax wealth - Covid cost Solution

Feets

Feets wrote: »

When a factory is not enforcing social distancing, I believe that is neglect and I speak with current experience of enforcing such measures. If the company does not make it possible for staff to work safely, that is neglectful.

Actually it works both ways. Why are the staff not practicing social distancing?

LuasSimon

Eric Cartman wrote: »

whats your obsession with Larry. Ive done contracting work for two meat processing companies, both have on site canteens feeding workers, they're both in rural enough towns but provide employment for most of the town, the carparks are huge because everybody owns a car and drives there, they all pay cheap rent in the surrounding area.

I would go as far as to say that a meat processing worker in cavan etc.. has a better standard of living than somebody packing shelves in a Dublin City centre Tesco. A lot of Latvians and Lithuanians like these factories because they have set 8 hour shifts, theres cheap rent, the local pub and off licences are marginally cheaper than Dublin and they can afford to drive bmw's and Mercedes that they could have only dreamed of owning before coming to Ireland.

I see some poor misfortune died in a meat factory in Kildare yesterday .
Hundreds of meat workers diagnosed with covid , 12 hospitalisations , 2 dead in accidents and the minimum wage meat industry ploughs on regardless making more money to be channeled through some off shore tax systems.

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see some poor misfortune died in a meat factory in Kildare yesterday .
Hundreds of meat workers diagnosed with covid , 12 hospitalisations , 2 dead in accidents and the minimum wage meat industry ploughs on regardless making more money to be channeled through some off shore tax systems.

Source, please.

LuasSimon

https://www.thejournal.ie/kildare-meat-plant-death-5099518-May2020/

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/kildare-meat-plant-death-5099518-May2020/

One dead in a workplace accident. Not Covid related.

Shefwedfan

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see some poor misfortune died in a meat factory in Kildare yesterday .
Hundreds of meat workers diagnosed with covid , 12 hospitalisations , 2 dead in accidents and the minimum wage meat industry ploughs on regardless making more money to be channeled through some off shore tax systems.

:P
Your grasping at straws not and just slightly off topic

Eric Cartman

LuasSimon wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/kildare-meat-plant-death-5099518-May2020/

Do you eat meat ?

LuasSimon

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One dead in a workplace accident. Not Covid related.

I’d like to see some of ye here go through what meat workers endure for minimum wage , loads of sharp practice by meat factories but once ye have yere fillet steaks nobody cares what meat factory workers go through similar to Keelings Bulgarian slave camp .
Lots of Donald trump types on here , fcuk the little people mentality , look after the super rich is the motto here on this thread

Shefwedfan

LuasSimon wrote: »

I’d like to see some of ye here go through what meat workers endure for minimum wage , loads of sharp practice by meat factories but once ye have yere fillet steaks nobody cares what meat factory workers go through similar to Keelings Bulgarian slave camp .
Lots of Donald trump types on here , fcuk the little people mentality , look after the super rich is the motto here on this thread

So what have you done to help them?

PeadarCo

LuasSimon wrote: »

I’d like to see some of ye here go through what meat workers endure for minimum wage , loads of sharp practice by meat factories but once ye have yere fillet steaks nobody cares what meat factory workers go through similar to Keelings Bulgarian slave camp .
Lots of Donald trump types on here , fcuk the little people mentality , look after the super rich is the motto here on this thread

So what you are saying is that do don't buy from any of the multiples, only but from local markets or direct from the farmer, only eat food when in season and that's only the start. If you can afford to buy from the most expensive/highest quality providers you aren't short of money and if you do shop at any of the multiples well you are benefiting directly from the hard bargains they drive.

On what basis are you calling Keelings a slave labour camp? You are looking at seasonal labour's who come from abroad. They aren't forced any obviously what ever they are getting paid covers their costs and then some. Calling it slave labour just demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the food industry in general.

The reason why the factories make so much money out of farming is because there are too many small beef farmers. A lot of these farmers are lifestyle farmers with either no other option from lack of education or a second off farm income that enables production at or below cost.

GreeBo

LuasSimon wrote: »

I’d like to see some of ye here go through what meat workers endure for minimum wage , loads of sharp practice by meat factories but once ye have yere fillet steaks nobody cares what meat factory workers go through similar to Keelings Bulgarian slave camp .
Lots of Donald trump types on here , fcuk the little people mentality , look after the super rich is the motto here on this thread

I'd like to see you go through what the meat goes through.

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

I’d like to see some of ye here go through what meat workers endure for minimum wage , loads of sharp practice by meat factories but once ye have yere fillet steaks nobody cares what meat factory workers go through similar to Keelings Bulgarian slave camp .
Lots of Donald trump types on here , fcuk the little people mentality , look after the super rich is the motto here on this thread

Oh, Dear. I seem to have touched a nerve. No ones forcing them to work. They choose to.
FWIT, I consider myself one of the little people. Minimum wage worker. But.....That’s MY choice. It suited my needs and that of my family. Don’t knock it. I’ve looked after my own and hope that I’ve raised my kids to know the importance of doing the same. I work to live, not live to work.

Gunmonkey

LuasSimon wrote: »

I’d like to see some of ye here go through what meat workers endure for minimum wage , loads of sharp practice by meat factories but once ye have yere fillet steaks nobody cares what meat factory workers go through similar to Keelings Bulgarian slave camp .
Lots of Donald trump types on here , fcuk the little people mentality , look after the super rich is the motto here on this thread

I probably would be fine, given I grew up on a farm and have worked in numerous factories and years as a chef (so used to carving up meat).

And its now funny in a thread where you propose a "wealth" tax you are now sneering at Keelings as a "slave camp". Holy off-topic rant, Batman! You wanna expand on that point; how is Keelings a "slave camp"? Actual, backed up verified facts please, no hyperbolic whinges about "de evil corporations stepping on de working man" nonsense.

Also, again back on topic....how much "wealth" tax should Larry Goodman pay if he is worth €4.5 billion? Its a simple question, that only asks you to expand on your original assertion.

KyussB

There's a consistent trend of saying that the wealthy are 'job creators' - no distinction made between CEO's and the wealthy, the statement is that the wealthy create the jobs due to investing their wealth/money - so the statement is that whoever provides the money, is the job creator.

By and large, the wealthy do not provide most of the money for jobs - it comes, in one form or another, largely from commercial loans - from money that is created from nothing - from money that is ultimately provided by a government institution, the central bank (through the reserves it provides the private banks).

If money is the judge as to who the job creators are, then the government is the main job creator - through the central bank.

What are the wealthy then? They inhabit positions of power in the economy, with significant control over private industry, and over finance in particular - the wealthy are the gatekeepers who decide what work is done, and just as importantly, what is not done - not exclusively of course, but the more their wealth/power as a group concentrates, the more control they get over this - both in industry and their control over politics/government.

What is a CEO then? Well, this one is a bit tricky - you have to focus on the concept, that a business must operate in a for-profit system in order to survive, and that is separate to job creation - because e.g. completely unprofitable jobs can be permanently sustained for the public good, by e.g. government provided work.

So it doesn't matter how innovative a CEO or a founder is, how great a business idea they have, or how well they can manage the companies books - without the money needed to kick it all off in the first place, the jobs don't get created - and there's nothing special about balancing arbitrary numbers/accounting to keep businesses afloat (it's just a rather arbitrary system we've chosen, for deciding which businesses/jobs to keep around and which to kill - and it works fairly well, albeit with many problems we have to put up with) - that's not job creation, that's just part of a self-regulating system for deciding which jobs we want and don't want.

So yea, if the provision of money is the decider in who the 'job creators' are - government is the creator of the vast majority of jobs, not just through the public sector, but through the private sector as well - and the wealthy/powerful have primarily just put themselves in a position of undue influence, in regulating the work that gets done - and how much work gets done.

The last bit is important - because when the for-profit system can't sustain enough work for people, and when the wealthy/powerful choose to not allow profitable work that would go against their interests (e.g. massive house building programs, to end the speculative warping of the property market), the wealthy/powerful actually want to have persistent huge amounts of long term unemployment in downturns - in order to preserve their control over jobs, as well as to discipline labour (keep wages down) - and they do this by using their political influence to direcly oppose having the government engage in direct employment of people (on both a for-profit and not-for-profit basis), despite the government provision of money making them the biggest job creators in all other respects.

So, forget taxing existing wealth etc. - let those who are already wealthy, keep their existing wealth - focus instead on ending the control of the wealthy/powerful (this control is mostly political, not economic!) over using government provided money to decide what work gets done, and have governments use this power instead, to permanently end unemployment - and enable the for-profit (i.e. self funding...) work in areas of the economy, that the wealthy/powerful are using to exploit us all (property/accommodation in particular), and all of the unprofitable but socially beneficial work we need, to have better societies (and all of this, with an emphasis on returning hired workers back into the private sector, as that sector recovers).

declanflynn

KyussB wrote: »

There's a consistent trend of saying that the wealthy are 'job creators' - no distinction made between CEO's and the wealthy, the statement is that the wealthy create the jobs due to investing their wealth/money - so the statement is that whoever provides the money, is the job creator.

By and large, the wealthy do not provide most of the money for jobs - it comes, in one form or another, largely from commercial loans - from money that is created from nothing - from money that is ultimately provided by a government institution, the central bank (through the reserves it provides the private banks).

If money is the judge as to who the job creators are, then the government is the main job creator - through the central bank.

What are the wealthy then? They inhabit positions of power in the economy, with significant control over private industry, and over finance in particular - the wealthy are the gatekeepers who decide what work is done, and just as importantly, what is not done - not exclusively of course, but the more their wealth/power as a group concentrates, the more control they get over this - both in industry and their control over politics/government.

What is a CEO then? Well, this one is a bit tricky - you have to focus on the concept, that a business must operate in a for-profit system in order to survive, and that is separate to job creation - because e.g. completely unprofitable jobs can be permanently sustained for the public good, by e.g. government provided work.

So it doesn't matter how innovative a CEO or a founder is, how great a business idea they have, or how well they can manage the companies books - without the money needed to kick it all off in the first place, the jobs don't get created - and there's nothing special about balancing arbitrary numbers/accounting to keep businesses afloat (it's just a rather arbitrary system we've chosen, for deciding which businesses/jobs to keep around and which to kill - and it works fairly well, albeit with many problems we have to put up with) - that's not job creation, that's just part of a self-regulating system for deciding which jobs we want and don't want.

So yea, if the provision of money is the decider in who the 'job creators' are - government is the creator of the vast majority of jobs, not just through the public sector, but through the private sector as well - and the wealthy/powerful have primarily just put themselves in a position of undue influence, in regulating the work that gets done - and how much work gets done.

The last bit is important - because when the for-profit system can't sustain enough work for people, and when the wealthy/powerful choose to not allow profitable work that would go against their interests (e.g. massive house building programs, to end the speculative warping of the property market), the wealthy/powerful actually want to have persistent huge amounts of long term unemployment in downturns - in order to preserve their control over jobs, as well as to discipline labour (keep wages down) - and they do this by using their political influence to direcly oppose having the government engage in direct employment of people (on both a for-profit and not-for-profit basis), despite the government provision of money making them the biggest job creators in all other respects.

So, forget taxing existing wealth etc. - let those who are already wealthy, keep their existing wealth - focus instead on ending the control of the wealthy/powerful (this control is mostly political, not economic!) over using government provided money to decide what work gets done, and have governments use this power instead, to permanently end unemployment - and enable the for-profit (i.e. self funding...) work in areas of the economy, that the wealthy/powerful are using to exploit us all (property/accommodation in particular), and all of the unprofitable but socially beneficial work we need, to have better societies (and all of this, with an emphasis on returning hired workers back into the private sector, as that sector recovers).

Very well written.
I have two neighbours, one is a builder works very hard has around 30 people working for him, has a massive house, wife drives a merc and so on.
Up the road further is a guy who 30 years ago was sacked from his job for stealing hasn't worked since except the odd day here and there, is on the social, is in the pub everyday and so on.
Many people on here think we need to transfer wealth from the first guy to the second, I think that system rewards wasters.

JimmyVik

declanflynn wrote: »

Very well written.
I have two neighbours, one is a builder works very hard has around 30 people working for him, has a massive house wife drives a merc and so on.
Up the road further is a guy who 30 years ago was sacked from his job for stealing hasn't worked since except the odd day here and there, is on the social, is in the pub everyday and so on.
Many people on here think we need to transfer wealth from the first guy to the second, I think that system rewards wasters.

He might want to transfer his massive house wife though

LuasSimon

declanflynn wrote: »

Very well written.
I have two neighbours, one is a builder works very hard has around 30 people working for him, has a massive house, wife drives a merc and so on.
Up the road further is a guy who 30 years ago was sacked from his job for stealing hasn't worked since except the odd day here and there, is on the social, is in the pub everyday and so on.
Many people on here think we need to transfer wealth from the first guy to the second, I think that system rewards wasters.

Wouldn’t be on for rewarding wasters in fact I’d cut dole for those who never worked and stop children’s allowance and benefits at 4 kids .

What I also would do is pay staff working in very profitable business like meat factory’s more than the minimum wage for very physically demanding work . Would it be that bad if the meat plant owner made 7 million per plant each year instead of 8 million . I also feel that the 7 million should be taxed here not Luxembourg. Hardly unfair

JimmyVik

LuasSimon wrote: »

Wouldn’t be on for rewarding wasters in fact I’d cut dole for those who never worked and stop children’s allowance and benefits at 4 kids .

What I also would do is pay staff working in very profitable business like meat factory’s more than the minimum wage for very physically demanding work . Would it be that bad if the meat plant owner made 7 million per plant each year instead of 8 million . I also feel that the 7 million should be taxed here not Luxembourg. Hardly unfair

Cut the dole and pay more to those workers you mention.
Probably be easier than convincing the owners

LuasSimon

In today’s independent of all papers gene Kerrigan has an article saying we have the fifth most billionaires per capita in the world and workers across Europe get an average of 61% of the national income , in Ireland its 55%.

The main parties uptonow FG and FF are more interested in the super rich , landlords and investors as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of ordinary tax payers .

Paulownia

If you inherited 2 million from a parent, money that inheritance tax and income tax was paid on over the years you would be liable to about 700k in capital transfer tax under Irish law, nobody would be happy to pay that and indeed you are paying tax not only on what you end up with but also on the tax you pay.
This is wealth tax by another name

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

In today’s independent of all papers gene Kerrigan has an article saying we have the fifth most billionaires per capita in the world and workers across Europe get an average of 61% of the national income , in Ireland its 55%.

The main parties uptonow FG and FF are more interested in the super rich , landlords and investors as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of ordinary tax payers .

More begrudgery.

FVP3

Paulownia wrote: »

If you inherited 2 million from a parent, money that inheritance tax and income tax was paid on over the years you would be liable to about 700k in capital transfer tax under Irish law, nobody would be happy to pay that and indeed you are paying tax not only on what you end up with but also on the tax you pay.
This is wealth tax by another name

World's smallest violin here. I mean you end up with 1.3 million from doing nothing except picking the correct parents. Thats more than most workers will earn net in their working lives .

Deleted User wrote: »

More begrudgery.

The facts are begrudgery, now?

What get me is how people who are nowhere near a billionaire, are on the side of the super rich. Some billionaires want to pay more taxes but the middle income common joe is opposed to taxing em.

jackboy

FVP3 wrote: »

World's smallest violin here. I mean you end up with 1.3 million from doing nothing except picking the correct parents. Thats more than most workers will earn net in their working lives .

Do you want to ban inheritance now? Or is there an acceptable amount that someone can inherit?

gary550

FVP3 wrote: »

What get me is how people who are nowhere near a billionaire, are on the side of the super rich. Some billionaires want to pay more taxes but the middle income common joe is opposed to taxing em.

Out of curiosity,

How would you propose we tax wealthy individuals?

LuasSimon

gary550 wrote: »

Out of curiosity,

How would you propose we tax wealthy individuals?

What’s your policy ? ... tax the tax payer more and allows Larry JP and all other tax exiles get richer and richer ....

Lundstram

Tax their income in relation to their assets and capital. Include the ordinary joe soap in this too, e.g folk who inherit land, property and businesses.

Attacking the middle class once again will not fix our problems coming down the line.

Also, increase inheritance tax, it’s money a person has gotten for nothing. No sympathy.

Hubertj

FVP3 wrote: »

World's smallest violin here. I mean you end up with 1.3 million from doing nothing except picking the correct parents. Thats more than most workers will earn net in their working lives .




The facts are begrudgery, now?

What get me is how people who are nowhere near a billionaire, are on the side of the super rich. Some billionaires want to pay more taxes but the middle income common joe is opposed to taxing em.

Picking the correct parents? What a stupid comment. Some people work much harder than others to provide for their families. They pay tax on what they earn and their children pay further CAT on inheritance. You sound bitter about it or did you not pick the correct parents?

Randy Archer

Hubertj wrote: »

Picking the correct parents? What a stupid comment. Some people work much harder than others to provide for their families. They pay tax on what they earn and their children pay further CAT on inheritance. You sound bitter about it or did you not pick the correct parents?

Not to mention many of the kids would have played in a role in running the family business and ensure smooth succession of said business . Doubt many young lads are that crazy about taking up large farms now a days when there are more options in the world for them ...quiet a few sme’s eg shoe shops and pubs close down when the owners retire because the kids want nothing to do with two arguably dying trades

You’d swear 2 million is actually much in todays world either 😂. Ah but sure, some one has to pick up on the welfare allowance, child allowance tabs of the lazy and unemployable . Let’s squeeze Middle Ireland again, despite already paying income tax,vat, CGT etc

markodaly

Oh the Inheritance tax, myth again.

Do you know that Sweden, the Utopia that every Irish left winger points to, abolished inheritance tax in 2004.
Norway got rid of it in 2014 and flavour of the month New Zealand hasn't had it since 1992.

These are not unequal capitalist hell holes and are doing just fine without it. The trend has actually been to abolish it, replacing it with more consumption-based taxes.

Eric Cartman

LuasSimon wrote: »

In today’s independent of all papers gene Kerrigan has an article saying we have the fifth most billionaires per capita in the world and workers across Europe get an average of 61% of the national income , in Ireland its 55%.

The main parties uptonow FG and FF are more interested in the super rich , landlords and investors as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of ordinary tax payers .

the worst country in the world to be a non institutional landlord with some of the highest taxation and lowest amount of deductible expenses.

some of the highest personal taxation rates in europe

one of the lowest thresholds for the higher rate of income tax worldwide

policy documents completely focussed on spending and social programs with little to no support for SME's or Enterprise

A FG Taoiseach who presided over billions more welfare and social spending and who, even when elected on a mandate to cut taxes, has not cut taxes for any middle of high income earners in any meaningful way.


pull the other one mate....