Time to tax wealth - Covid cost Solution

saabsaab

Ever since the bust in 2008/9 wealth has been concentrated into the hands a a increasingly small group of billionaires. This is not good for the planet or most people and there must be some new ways found to moderate this trend or it may lad to revolutions. I know that one country can't go it alone as wealth at this level is international and would have to be done by many states acting together.

JimmyVik

saabsaab wrote: »

Ever since the bust in 2008/9 wealth has been concentrated into the hands a a increasingly small group of billionaires. This is not good for the planet or most people and there must be some new ways found to moderate this trend or it may lad to revolutions. I know that one country can't go it alone as wealth at this level is international and would have to be done by many states acting together.

How would you feel if all the wealth of the entire population of Europe was distributed so that all Europeans, Indians, South Americans, Africans, Chinese all had the same wealth? Include America if you like.

saabsaab

JimmyVik wrote: »

How would you feel if all the wealth of the entire population of Europe was distributed so that all Europeans, Indians, South Americans, Africans, Chinese all had the same wealth? Include America if you like.

I don't know how I'd feel but it might be a great idea.



I do feel that increasing concentration of huge wealth in the hands of a few individuals isn't to the world's benefit and should be tackled.

saabsaab

saabsaab wrote: »

I don't know how I'd feel but it might be a great idea.



I do feel that increasing concentration of huge wealth in the hands of a few individuals isn't to the world's benefit and should be tackled.

Are you talking about huge earned wealth or huge inherited wealth?

raze_them_all_

JimmyVik wrote: »

How would you feel if all the wealth of the entire population of Europe was distributed so that all Europeans, Indians, South Americans, Africans, Chinese all had the same wealth? Include America if you like.

People all have this idea of give everyone money but eventually over time the same thing will happen, people who don't value money/earn it will lose it all and the bill Gates types will be billionaires again

saabsaab

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

People all have this idea of give everyone money but eventually over time the same thing will happen, people who don't value money/earn it will lose it all and the bill Gates types will be billionaires again

History shows that wealth concentrates as you say but it also shows that at some point war, plague, social unrest and revolution redistribute it very quickly, often chaotically. Better to have a siphoning off than a burst.

FVP3

Hubertj wrote: »

Picking the correct parents? What a stupid comment. Some people work much harder than others to provide for their families. They pay tax on what they earn and their children pay further CAT on inheritance. You sound bitter about it or did you not pick the correct parents?

The people who pay tax on their earnings are not the children who inherit it. Two distinct people.

As for "working harder than others", only the utterly naive think you get rich enough to be a billionaire by working hard. No ordinary person is saving 25M a year to become a billionaire by age 65.

Hubertj

FVP3 wrote: »

The people who pay tax on their earnings are not the children who inherit it. Two distinct people.

As for "working harder than others", only the utterly naive think you get rich enough to be a billionaire by working hard. No ordinary person is saving 25M a year to become a billionaire by age 65.

What’s that got to do with your idiotic comment about picking correct parents? You’re just jealous.

markodaly

FVP3 wrote: »

The people who pay tax on their earnings are not the children who inherit it. Two distinct people.

They may be two distinct people, but in our society and indeed in every society around the world, the family unit is what structures our world.
We don't pop out kids to hand them over to the state, or some strangers or to a business.

Thus, inheritance is also a lot older than people think.
Again, as I said, taxing inheritance is actually trending away. Its lazy talk to advocate it.

And to those who say, the kids got this unearned 'gift', please do tell us why the state or some random stranger 'earns' it more instead?

jimmycrackcorm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the worst country in the world to be a non institutional landlord with some of the highest taxation and lowest amount of deductible expenses.

some of the highest personal taxation rates in europe

one of the lowest thresholds for the higher rate of income tax worldwide

policy documents completely focussed on spending and social programs with little to no support for SME's or Enterprise

A FG Taoiseach who presided over billions more welfare and social spending and who, even when elected on a mandate to cut taxes, has not cut taxes for any middle of high income earners in any meaningful way.

pull the other one mate....

The problem for FG is the same as it was for Labour when they were in coalition. The 'mandate' is effectively nullified by not having a majority to implement your policies.


Can't implement water charges becuase "quango" or it might be potentially privatised; despite these charges being a feature of every other socialist or not leaning contry in Europe. FF, who initialised the idea jumped on the populism bandwagon so that was that.

Yet not a peep about the ESB who have probably the staff with the best pay and conditions in the country and run an equivalent national network.

To be fair to FG though, the current need to remote work for so many has just demonstrated the value in the very expensive national broadband plan that has been so widely criticised.

FVP3

markodaly wrote: »

They may be two distinct people, but in our society and indeed in every society around the world, the family unit is what structures our world.
We don't pop out kids to hand them over to the state, or some strangers or to a business.

Thus, inheritance is also a lot older than people think.
Again, as I said, taxing inheritance is actually trending away. Its lazy talk to advocate it.

The first argument is an appeal to tradition. And if someone earns money from working for their family, do they not pay taxes?

The second one is merely stating what is, but I am clearly arguing for a future tax.

And to those who say, the kids got this unearned 'gift', please do tell us why the state or some random stranger 'earns' it more instead?

Why would a random stranger need my worked for taxes? I don't think you are an anarcho libertarian so presumably you believe that taxes should be paid by someone.

The debate here is about whether the billionaires pay it or the squeezed middle. Some people have tried to distract from this by criticising the social welfare classes, but that's both a false dilemma and a pointless argument, as most of the cost of social welfare and nearly all of its accelerating costs are in pensions.

So its us in the middle, or them at the top who will pay.

gary550

FVP3 wrote: »

The first argument is an appeal to tradition. And if someone earns money from working for their family, do they not pay taxes?

The second one is merely stating what is, but I am clearly arguing for a future tax.



Why would a random stranger need my worked for taxes? I don't think you are an anarcho libertarian so presumably you believe that taxes should be paid by someone.

The debate here is about whether the billionaires pay it or the squeezed middle. Some people have tried to distract from this by criticising the social welfare classes, but that's both a false dilemma and a pointless argument, as most of the cost of social welfare and nearly all of its accelerating costs are in pensions.

So its us in the middle, or them at the top who will pay.

Ireland has the lowest effective income tax rates in Europe for low income earners and one of the highest (top 4 I think) for high middle and high income earners. Why look to people who already pay a boat load of tax to pay more tax? How would that help middle income earners?

The country has an issue with how low income earning self employed and paye workers are taxed, which equates to very a small effective rate. Are they less likely to use our expensive public services? nope. Social welfare is for the most part not taxed at all, why don't we treat that as a taxable subsidy and put a blanket rate of 15% (taken at source) for everything except carers allowance type payments (which saves the country money in most cases).

If I earn €100k I will be paying close to €40k in income tax, prsi, usc etc. If I earn €250k I will pay closer to €120k in income tax. Will I use €120k worth of public services?

FVP3

gary550 wrote: »

Ireland has the lowest effective income tax rates in Europe for low income earners and one of the highest (top 4 I think) for high middle and high income earners. Why look to people who already pay a boat load of tax to pay more tax? How would that help middle income earners?

FFS, the people paying the highest level of tax are in the middle.. We are talking about the rich, not some schlep who earns a measly 100K.

Nothing to do with the wealth tax I am proposing except to reduce those numbers if possible on higher PAYE income. The low taxation on low earners is also wrong, as far as I am concerned but not relevant to this discussion.

The country has an issue with how low income earning self employed and paye workers are taxed, which equates to very a small effective rate. Are they less likely to use our expensive public services? nope. Social welfare is for the most part not taxed at all, why don't we treat that as a taxable subsidy and put a blanket rate of 15% (taken at source) for everything except carers allowance type payments (which saves the country money in most cases).

Nothing to do with the wealth tax I am proposing

If I earn €100k I will be paying close to €40k in income tax, prsi, usc etc. If I earn €250k I will pay closer to €120k in income tax. Will I use €120k worth of public services?

Nothing to do with the wealth tax I am proposing.

FVP3

Me: We should tax the real rich ( multi millionaires and billionaires) with a wealth and inheritance tax to reduce PAYE tax..
Them: WHY ARE YOU INCREASING THE TAX ON PAYE WORKERS?

FVP3

Back when socialism was actually a workers movement, this happened.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2020/0108/1105084-paye-protest/

700,000 PAYE workers take to the streets in protest at a tax system which they believe bleeds the workers and ignores the wealthy.

In Dublin alone, approximately 350,000 men and women marched from Parnell Square to Government Buildings demanding a better deal for ordinary workers. Many of the protesters interviewed in O’Connell Street Dublin want to see farmers pay their fair share of tax.

This campaign by workers is almost a year old and emerged when the government caved to farming lobbyists and failed to bring farmers into the tax net. The PAYE sector believes that they are holding a major share of the tax burden with the perception that the farmers get off very lightly. As anger increased among workers, they were mobilised by trade unions and took to the streets. Unions have met with Taoiseach Charles Haughey demanding action in the forthcoming February budget.

Nothing in there about increasing taxes on higher paid PAYE workers.

Now the Irish left, which is basically an alliance of lumpenproletariat, the self employed and rich kid trustafarians oppose property and environmental taxes.

Hubertj

FVP3 wrote: »

Back when socialism was actually a workers movement, this happened.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2020/0108/1105084-paye-protest/

700,000 PAYE workers take to the streets in protest at a tax system which they believe bleeds the workers and ignores the wealthy.

In Dublin alone, approximately 350,000 men and women marched from Parnell Square to Government Buildings demanding a better deal for ordinary workers. Many of the protesters interviewed in O’Connell Street Dublin want to see farmers pay their fair share of tax.

This campaign by workers is almost a year old and emerged when the government caved to farming lobbyists and failed to bring farmers into the tax net. The PAYE sector believes that they are holding a major share of the tax burden with the perception that the farmers get off very lightly. As anger increased among workers, they were mobilised by trade unions and took to the streets. Unions have met with Taoiseach Charles Haughey demanding action in the forthcoming February budget.

Nothing in there about increasing taxes on higher paid PAYE workers.

Now the Irish left, which is basically an alliance of lumpenproletariat, the self employed and rich kid trustafarians oppose property and environmental taxes.

Yawn, you still haven’t answered my question about your stupid comment on picking the right parents? Are you going to admit it was idiotic or just continue with this socialist bol*oxology? Maybe you would be wealthier if you worked harder?

FVP3

FVP3 wrote: »

Me: We should tax the real rich ( multi millionaires and billionaires) with a wealth and inheritance tax to reduce PAYE tax..
Them: WHY ARE YOU INCREASING THE TAX ON PAYE WORKERS?

What exactly are you suggesting?

Say I start with nothing and through hard work, build a personal fortune of for example €5,000,000 in businesses and investments but only have €500,000 cash in bank.

Or I inherited €5,000,000 cash from ma and pa, paying a couple of hundred grand in inheritance taxes.

What further taxes would you suggest in either scenario?

da_miser

Cut dole to €100 a week by €10 a month starting september
Have zero tax on PAYG work up to €50k, all you earn , all you keep.
This money will be no doubt be spent and put straight back into the economy, creating more jobs
So you have option to stay on dole and live on boiled potato or get out there and get a job.

Win win for everyone, so naturally it will never happen

FVP3

Hubertj wrote: »

Yawn, you still haven’t answered my question about your stupid comment on picking the right parents? Are you going to admit it was idiotic or just continue with this socialist bol*oxology? Maybe you would be wealthier if you worked harder?

I am pretty sure I did answer that question. Nor is it stupid.

( Also what a crazed and aggressive posting style you have. Take it easy, lest you get a stroke).

FVP3

da_miser wrote: »

Cut dole to €100 a week by €10 a month starting september
This money will be no doubt be spent and put straight back into the economy, creating more jobs
So you have option to stay on dole and live on boiled potato or get out there and get a job.

Win win for everyone, so naturally it will never happen

So no tax until 50K? Putting even more burden on the PAYE worker on slightly more than median income?

FVP3

Deleted User wrote: »

What exactly are you suggesting?

A wealth tax.

Say I start with nothing and through hard work, build a personal fortune of for example €5,000,000 in businesses and investments but only have €500,000 cash in bank.

A percentage tax on the 5 million. Not on income. If somethings have to be liquidated, so be it. Most rich people will have easy access to liquidization. I mean if I have million in stocks and I have to liquidate a percentage to pay tax, so what.

Or I inherited €5,000,000 cash from ma and pa, paying a couple of hundred grand in inheritance taxes.

What further taxes would you suggest in either scenario?

In that case a higher inheritance tax and a wealth tax on the rest.

We have these kind of taxes in the post war period in Europe but it is fairly hard to do them now, as we have gotten rid of capital controls. The US taxes people where-ever they are so it could work there. Economically I mean, but probably not politically. That said, who knows, Elizabeth Warren had a proposal.

FVP3

FVP3 wrote: »

A wealth tax.




A percentage tax on the 5 million. Not on income. If somethings have to be liquidated, so be it. Most rich people will have easy access to liquidization. I mean if I have million in stocks and I have to liquidate a percentage to pay tax, so what.



In that case a higher inheritance tax and a wealth tax on the rest.

We have these kind of taxes in the post war period in Europe but it is fairly hard to do them now, as we have gotten rid of capital controls. The US taxes people where-ever they are so it could work there. Economically I mean, but probably not politically. That said, who knows, Elizabeth Warren had a proposal.

Could you define or be more specific about a wealth tax.

Hubertj

FVP3 wrote: »

I am pretty sure I did answer that question. Nor is it stupid.

( Also what a crazed and aggressive posting style you have. Take it easy, lest you get a stroke).

You didn’t answer the question. Aggressive, yes, crazed definitely not. You’re the 1 coming out with crazy socialist nonsense.
Did your voice the wrong parents? Or is it your are bitter others work harder than you and earn more money?

da_miser

FVP3 wrote: »

So no tax until 50K? Putting even more burden on the PAYE worker on slightly more than median income?

How is it more burden?
No tax until €50k then start at 20% and hit the high tax bracket at €100k.
Get more money into peoples pockets, they will spent it, the economy grows, those who want a better life will work for it, if your a bum, you get €100 a week to live of, Porridge and potato are cheap, you wont starve to death, the dole should not be a lifestyle choice, its a safety net for when you fall on hard times, its not meant to be from cradle to grave.
The dole should only cover the cost of feeding yourself, you want Sky TV, get a job, you want to Smoke, get a job, you want to drink Beer, get a job.

jackboy

da_miser wrote: »

The dole should only cover the cost of feeding yourself, you want Sky TV, get a job, you want to Smoke, get a job, you want to drink Beer, get a job.

True. It’s staggering that a large proportion of the population believes that tax payers money should be used to buy them fags and booze.

gary550

FVP3 wrote: »

Me: We should tax the real rich ( multi millionaires and billionaires) with a wealth and inheritance tax to reduce PAYE tax..
Them: WHY ARE YOU INCREASING THE TAX ON PAYE WORKERS?

But your reference to wealth is one of an extremely broad term, are you proposing on taxing assets or the disposal of assets? How many times are you going to propose we tax the same asset holdings? Are you talking about heavily taxing property ownership? Are you talking about taxing companies with a high asset holding?

Geuze

A wealth tax is typically an annual tax on the stock of wealth owned by an individual.

Few countries have a wealth tax.

Many countries have abandoned wealth taxes.


Switzerland has wealth taxes:

https://voxeu.org/article/wealth-taxation-swiss-experience

An article on possible wealth tax in the USA:

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Saez-Zucman_conference-draft.pdf

Geuze

I hope Saez and Zucman don't mind me quoting the opening paragraph to section 4.2 of their conference paper on progressive wealth taxation.


4.2 Why Have Wealth Taxes Been Abandoned in a Number of European Countries?

As pointed out in the recent study of progressive wealth taxation by the OECD (2018), 12
OECD countries (all of them in Europe) had progressive wealth taxes in 1990, but only 4 still
had wealth taxes in 2017 (Switzerland, Spain, France, and Norway). As of 2019, four OECD
countries levy a progressive wealth tax on individuals. The decline of wealth taxation abroad
is one of main arguments used by skeptics in the US debate (see e.g., Summers and Sarin,
2019a, b). It is important to understand why wealth taxes have been repealed in a number of
European countries.

smurgen

gary550 wrote: »

Ireland has the lowest effective income tax rates in Europe for low income earners and one of the highest (top 4 I think) for high middle and high income earners. Why look to people who already pay a boat load of tax to pay more tax? How would that help middle income earners?

The country has an issue with how low income earning self employed and paye workers are taxed, which equates to very a small effective rate. Are they less likely to use our expensive public services? nope. Social welfare is for the most part not taxed at all, why don't we treat that as a taxable subsidy and put a blanket rate of 15% (taken at source) for everything except carers allowance type payments (which saves the country money in most cases).

If I earn €100k I will be paying close to €40k in income tax, prsi, usc etc. If I earn €250k I will pay closer to €120k in income tax. Will I use €120k worth of public services?

Chances are at that stage the government will be subsidising your business to some extent e.g tax incentives, grants. You're benefitting from indirect benefits.

JimmyVik

I propose a 30% tax on all income that you didnt pay paye on.
Dont touch the PAYE workers. They pay enough tax already, especially anyone earning €50k plus.

So if you earn money from investments it is taxed. Oh wait. It already is, and more than 40%.

So lets go to the other unearned income. The dole and the rent allowance.
30% tax on all money you receive without working for it.
Dole €11k per year. Pay €3450 per year tax on it. Thats only 30%.

Oh and when you get a council house you should be taxed on the total value. 30% is fair I think.
So you get a €╬300 house that you didnt earn you pay €90k tax up front.

Or you choose you can pay 30% on the gift that you are getting of the difference in what you pay for rent and proper market rent.
So lets say you pay €100pm rent but the market rent would be €2000 per month. You pay €6840 tax on the €22,800 gift you are getting every year.

I think 30% is very generous. Most people have to pay way more than that on their profits from investments.