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Time to tax wealth - Covid cost Solution

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    #242
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Imo people paying 40% are effectively subsidising said MNCs who arent paying fair share


    Mad buzz,differing views on things.

    The mental and economic gymnastics needed to reach that conclusion are staggering. The problem is how much we spend. For an island nation and population our 80 billion quid intake is far more than enough.


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    #243
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Leave Ireland and go where? This a completely false narative especially if we act as a european whole.

    Don't you ever wonder how you got to a postion of wanting to inflict pain and suffering on little children but the idea of a millionaires and companies valued in the trillions paying a small bit more tax is what you rush to oppose?

    "if a thing that will almost certainly not happen, happens, then your point is invalid"
    Another country would cut them a deal, we all know it, its easy for them to leave.


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    #244
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I don't know about you but I pay a hell of a lot more than a few pennies in tax.

    This notion that throwing them a few quid of the welfare and allowing them have unlimited kids is the only thing stopping Ireland from descending into a crime and drug riddle sh*thole says more about their lack of morality and makes more of a case for rounding up the unemployed and putting them on an island for the safety of decent citizens. than it does for giving them money.

    Key word 'extra'. Well the poorest areas have the worse drug and crime issues. I said nothing about Ireland desending into a a ****thole so you can take down your strawman. Awh your a drug addition is a moral failing (** expect when its the acceptible middle class drug, I assume) type of guy.


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    #245
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    The mental and economic gymnastics needed to reach that conclusion are staggering. The problem is how much we spend. For an island nation and population our 80 billion quid intake is far more than enough.
    So are you cutting the eldery or the disabled first? Maybe it's the sick that make you want to vomit?


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    #246
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    So are you cutting the eldery or the disabled first? Maybe it's the sick that make you want to vomit?
    Just the lifetime dolers and career mothers


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    #247
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Your worried about people having 14 kids the can't afford , despite the fact the evidence of such is near 0. I said having a european style child care system would help us all pay for it.


    When did I say about 14 kids?


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    #248
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Just the lifetime dolers and career mothers

    so what causes these type of situations?


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    #249
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Great idea comrade, that's never been tried and failed in many places.
    How's venezuela working? Or the CCCP?
    Ah yes, the "Any policy I dislike, is the same as Communism" crowd has arrived - importing US right-wing shite-smearing, to a country that doesn't exist in.

    Same policy as the UK, US, or any other major economy implemented during WWII.


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    #250
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Just the lifetime dolers and career mothers

    Great so we are in agreement. Now what do you do with such cases?

    UBI is one potential solution. Letting them starve to death is the solution at the other end of the scale


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    #251
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Leave Ireland and go where? This a completely false narative especially if we act as a european whole.


    Anywhere? every country in Europe and the World would have no issues taking HP, Intel, IBM, Facebook etc and wouldn't give a cr*p about Ireland

    Just because we are in Europe doesn't mean we dont compete to get these companies into our shores


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    #252
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,401 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    ELM327 wrote: »
    There's a big difference between someone receiving the covid payment after years of working, and those receiving years of JSA, lone parents, 90% rent discount etc. I have no problem at all with the former (there for the grace of god) but the latter should be condemned.

    I thought the covid payment was for only for those who have been laid off. I did not think that here was any change in benefits for the "long term" unemployed..


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    #253
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    When did I say about 14 kids?

    Well i just hyberboled your hyberbole. Hyberbole is fun.


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    #254
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I like the way these threads go. It starts tax the rich.

    Anyone mentions actually looking at the social welfare system in Ireland and you have everyone up in arms about starving children etc etc...

    Why not discuss the topic without it always been reduced to hyperbole.....childish points been made now because people on here have nothing to back it up


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    #255
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Well i just hyberboled your hyberbole. Hyberbole is fun.


    How is 3 going to 14?


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    #256
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Anywhere? every country in Europe and the World would have no issues taking HP, Intel, IBM, Facebook etc and wouldn't give a cr*p about Ireland

    Just because we are in Europe doesn't mean we dont compete to get these companies into our shores
    They'd all up sticks and leave if we increase our tax rate by 1%?


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    #257
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I thought the covid payment was for only for those who have been laid off. I did not think that here was any change in benefits for the "long term" unemployed..


    Yes and I didnt see anyone talk about the Covid payments, the discussion is about long term social. But the usual drama queens have looped in and instead of having a proper conversation it starts getting to this


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    #258
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    so what causes these type of situations?
    Incentives funded by those who work, often against their volition, by redistribution of tax.

    KyussB wrote: »
    Ah yes, the "Any policy I dislike, is the same as Communism" crowd has arrived - importing US right-wing shite-smearing, to a country that doesn't exist in.

    Same policy as the UK, US, or any other major economy implemented during WWII.
    No no, just those that presumes to take money earned and give it to those who are bone idle
    lawred2 wrote: »
    I thought the covid payment was for only for those who have been laid off. I did not think that here was any change in benefits for the "long term" unemployed..
    It is. That was my point.


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    #259
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    They'd all up sticks and leave if we increase our tax rate by 1%?
    No, but it would introduce uncertainty.

    Make no illusions, our 500m jobs based on FDI are here in large part due to the 12.5%.


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    #260
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ELM327 wrote: »
    No, cars are limited by speed limits that are enforced.
    So, there's a system, there's a limit


    As opposed to the (expensively borrowed) money printing machine that is the DSP bill.

    Welfare fraud is limited by the the rules of the welfare system .


    Can people stop saying the DSP bill if you mean the small percentage of the DSP bill that is spend on the "never employed"? It makes you look like an American style free market nut .


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    #261
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Yes and I didnt see anyone talk about the Covid payments, the discussion is about long term social. But the usual drama queens have looped in and instead of having a proper conversation it starts getting to this
    Never let facts get in the way of a good ould lefty rant eh :D
    I think Boyd Barret et al, loony as they are, have got nothing on some posters here.


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    #262
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    They'd all up sticks and leave if we increase our tax rate by 1%?


    If we increase by 1% that shows intent and yes they will look around. Look at Boris for Brexit saying he would reduce his corporate tax to rival Ireland


    So we increase, what is to say in 12 months we dont do the same? when all these companies are already suffering due to the crisis, it would be a kick in the teeth and would really set Ireland back in terms of relations.


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    #263
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,725 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I like the way these threads go. It starts tax the rich.

    Anyone mentions actually looking at the social welfare system in Ireland and you have everyone up in arms about starving children etc etc...

    Why not discuss the topic without it always been reduced to hyperbole.....childish points been made now because people on here have nothing to back it up

    That's because everyone spends their time insisting that they are not rich and someone else is, and they are evil and should pay.

    Reality is that if wealth redistribution is the goal, then we should all be taking massive paycuts, and sending money out of the country (especially as a lot of our balance wasn't even earned in Ireland).

    Ask PBP how much they want to cut the welfare allowances to fund proper wealth redistribution, and you'll see them crawl away.


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    #264
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,999 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Welfare fraud is limited by the the rules of the welfare system .


    Can people stop saying the DSP bill if you mean the small percentage of the DSP bill that is spend on the "never employed"? It makes you look like an American style free market nut .
    I'm not talking about fraud though.
    These people are not fraudulently claiming.


    They genuinely have 4,5,6+ kids and get the money for them. They do exist it's not fraud. It's a lifestyle incentivised by the system.


    The DSP bill is (before covid) ~20bn per annum. 8bn goes on pensions etc. That leaves 14bn on non pensions. Of the 14bn at least15% goes on disabililty (we have one of the highest per capita disability rates in the world) and the rest is spread between JSB (no issue with this as it is contributions based), JSA, Hap, etc.
    It's the "JSA, Hap, etc" that we need to reduce.


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    #265
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    SO lets give an example. IBM have 4000 people hired in Ireland.

    Lets say across the company we take an average of 100k per employee(some earn more, some earn less). That means the majority will pay circa 50k taxs(thsats include car tax, LPT etc).

    You increase by 1%, IBM get pi**ed and move out,. You have just taken 200 million tax out of the economy plus 200 million of wages which are spent in Ireland or saved in Ireland.

    Sorry but how does it make sense to hit the american companies?

    Plus you hit one, you hit all of them


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    #266
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ELM327 wrote: »
    No, but it would introduce uncertainty.

    Make no illusions, our 500m jobs based on FDI are here in large part due to the 12.5%.

    So we can cut from the poorest but never even consider asking the rich to pay more?


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    #267
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    How is 3 going to 14?

    You said more than 5 at one point.


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    #268
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    I raised the point about stopping children allowance after 3 kids. Thats the number I would have to clear up the confusion with one poster. That would start from today, so if more already well thats ok.

    Now the response to that seems to be
    1. Well nobody has more than 3 anyway: if that is the case then why such a problem introducing? if nobody is affected>
    2. Your hitting the poorest: if they cant afford children, well then dont have them. I know loads of my friends who would love to have 5-6 kids, they cant afford them so dont have

    Its not like we live in the early 1900's wiht no contraception available. People need to start to take responsibility. If they want more than 3, fine, nobody is stopping you, you just have to pay for the kids


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    #269
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You said more than 5 at one point.


    You posted the exact same thing yesterday, I answered it then so I aint going to bother now


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    #270
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,514 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Rodin wrote: »
    Christmas bonus was scrapped in the last recession.
    Should go again. €265 million it cost last year. Scandalous.

    Thanks for reminding me about this, I had forgotten.

    I suggest abolish it for Social Assistance (SA), but keep it for Social Insurance (SI).


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    #271
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    If we increase by 1% that shows intent and yes they will look around. Look at Boris for Brexit saying he would reduce his corporate tax to rival Ireland


    So we increase, what is to say in 12 months we dont do the same? when all these companies are already suffering due to the crisis, it would be a kick in the teeth and would really set Ireland back in terms of relations.

    Every company knows that tax rates are changable , this agruement is complete nonsense.


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