Why are Irish conservatives not represented in the media/politics?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

So if the electorate had informed themselves they'd have voted for Corbyns Labour, but because they voted for Bj they were ill informed.

That's your hypothesis, not mine, so I did you the honour of removing the question mark so as to reduce confusion.

If someone votes for a candidate who opnely dodges questions and doesn't ask what they're hiding, you'd have to ask why. My personal opinion is because most of them associated Brexit with less brown people running around in their community, but that's just my theory.

Strange how it works, considering the red wall collapsed. Sounds to me like voters were perfectly informed. The long time labour supporters who voted Conservative will bounce right back to Labour provided Starmer takes the party back towards the center.

The reported antisemitism within labour came from Labour members, delegates and MPs themselves. Next to no such accusations were labelled at the Tories as a whole, or at a level comparable to that of anti semitism in Labour.

At least we can both agree that the BBC didn't 'hand' power to the Tories like another poster suggested earlier.

Already commented on racism/bigortry in the election.

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes indeed, no one ever suggested that the Tories were racist, right?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/06/boris-johnson-s-racist-insults-dog-whistles-and-slurs

It's quite clear in what I posted that I never suggested Noone has claimed that the Tories aren't racist. Read it again.

CtevenSrowder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's your hypothesis, not mine, so I did you the honour of removing the question mark so as to reduce confusion.

If someone votes for a candidate who opnely dodges questions and doesn't ask what they're hiding, you'd have to ask why. My personal opinion is because most of them associated Brexit with less brown people running around in their community, but that's just my theory.



Already commented on racism/bigortry in the election.

I put a question mark there as I was asking a question. Removing it and then proclaiming that it's my hypothesis is a whole new level of disingenuous. One of the more pathetic things I've seen on this site.

People voted Tories over Labour's Corbyn because Labour under Corbyn were atrocious, and many viewed him as being incapable of leading. You can literally watch interviews of former Labour voters giving their reasons for switching!
For Northern Englanders his association with stop the War Coalition was also a huge negative, as its associated with being anti British military, and most in Northern England will know people or have been in the military themselves. Ofcourse its easier to ignore this, and just proclaim those that voted Tory, who were also the only party seriously talking of implementing a democratic vote, are racist. The same old lazy insult that's been thrown at those that voted Brexit again and again, that absolves one of having to engage in any real analysis.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I put a question mark there as I was asking a question. Removing it and then proclaiming that it's my hypothesis is a whole new level of disingenuous. One of the more pathetic things I've seen on this site.

No it's a statement with a question amrk on the end.

A question would have read: "...would they have voted Labour?" instead of stating that they would have.

People voted Tories over Labour's Corbyn because Labour under Corbyn were atrocious, and many viewed him as being incapable of leading. You can literally watch interviews of former Labour voters giving their reasons for switching!
For Northern Englanders his association with stop the War Coalition was also a huge negative, as its associated with being anti British military, and most in Northern England will know people or have been in the military themselves. Ofcourse its easier to ignore this, and just proclaim those that voted Tory, who were also the only party seriously talking of implementing a democratic vote, are racist. The same old lazy insult that's been thrown at those that voted Brexit again and again, that absolves one of having to engage in any real analysis.

They were both racist. We cleared that up ages ago.

The issue that one the election was Brexit and Labout lost becsue they underestimated it. "Get Brexit Done" was pretty much his mantra.

(Hypothetical) question then is: why is Brexit so important to the Brish voter...?

CtevenSrowder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No it's a statement with a question amrk on the end.

A question would have read: "...would they have voted Labour?" instead of stating that they would have.



They were both racist. We cleared that up ages ago.

The issue that one the election was Brexit and Labout lost becsue they underestimated it. "Get Brexit Done" was pretty much his mantra.

(Hypothetical) question then is: why is Brexit so important to the Brish voter...?

I don't believe Corbyn or BJ are racist. The racism was said to be endemic in the party, but at lower levels of the party.

They don't like being net contributers to the EU, and as such feel they get less out of it then they put in.
They feel that the EU exerts too much power of their affairs.
They dislike the free movement that exists within the EU, and feel by leaving it can reduce immigration numbers.

I disagree with all of the above, but none of it is racist.

AndrewJRenko

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It's quite clear in what I posted that I never suggested Noone has claimed that the Tories aren't racist. Read it again.

You suggested that "Next to no such accusations were labelled at the Tories as a whole, or at a level comparable to that of anti semitism in Labour". A ten second search showed up a nice article showing 15 examples of BJ coming out with racist drivel like a drunken uncle at an Irish wedding.

If BJ is not a racist, he does a damn good impression of one.

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You suggested that "Next to no such accusations were labelled at the Tories as a whole, or at a level comparable to that of anti semitism in Labour". A ten second search showed up a nice article showing 15 examples of BJ coming out with racist drivel like a drunken uncle at an Irish wedding.

If BJ is not a racist, he does a damn good impression of one.

BJ isn't the whole Tory party. He's one person. There were at best 2 examples of potential racism in that article, number 5 being the main one.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I mentioned Fox and Facebook because you asked about the media influence on Trump election. The media won Trump election, Brexit vote and Boris election.

Your 'media pillorying Casey voters' never happened. You just made it up in your mad rush to position the poor middle aged middle class white man as the victim. Yet another in your long line of exaggerations.

Can you produce some evidence that this is the case please...you are not the first moran to believe that the media got Trump elected so I'd be interested in seeing what evidence you have.

Or are you just making it up....or did you hear it from some barstooler or some idiot on twitter....

Silentcorner

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

BJ isn't the whole Tory party. He's one person. There were at best 2 examples of potential racism in that article, number 5 being the main one.

If anyone can't understand how Boris got elected, you just need to look at how incompetent Theresa May was, and then look over at the Labour Party, a party which will split between feminists who believe that people who are born with penises can't be women and feminists who believe that kids are born with no gender....and that is aside from it's well documented issues with Anti Semitisim arguably the dumbest of all human prejudices....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/13/labour-leadership-contenders-split-over-trans-group-pledge-card

And that is before we get into the car crash Lib Dems, who's feminist leader was incapable of holder her own seat....a party that seems now to embracing Islam.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-lib-dems-ramadan-stunt-is-spectacularly-bad-politics

Things are that bad, that Boris Johnson will probably serve a number of terms.

The Democratic Party in the US are just as bad...

2ndcoming

Brexiteers were motivated by dark money, primarily their donors annoyance that EU regulations were limiting their ability to make money hand over fist and the big one, the potential that EU tax law would outlaw their ability to hide that money in offshore bank accounts in the Virgin Islands and Panama.

The Reese-Moggs, Farages and Ian Duncan-Smiths then jumped on every cynical ploy imaginable to appeal to as much of the middle aged and under-educated in the population to achieve that goal. From laudable causes like "funding the NHS instead" to nudge-nudge-wink-winking casual racism to bring in the closet racists to the outright foaming nationalists. They were helped in this regard by 70 years of self-mythologising good old Blighty putting it up to the Gerrys. These ploys can be seen in everything from the Annual Poppy Nazi campaign to the 2012 orgy of flag waving that was the London Olympics.

Ultimately, they didn't believe any of it, either funding the NHS instead or the outright racist stuff. They believed in the true goal though, and they managed to whip up the requisite fervour in the frothing masses to ensure their masters would be happy.

Silentcorner

2ndcoming wrote: »

Brexiteers were motivated by dark money, primarily their donors annoyance that EU regulations were limiting their ability to make money hand over fist and the big one, the potential that EU tax law would outlaw their ability to hide that money in offshore bank accounts in the Virgin Islands and Panama.

The Reese-Moggs, Farages and Ian Duncan-Smiths then jumped on every cynical ploy imaginable to appeal to as much of the middle aged and under-educated in the population to achieve that goal. From laudable causes like "funding the NHS instead" to nudge-nudge-wink-winking casual racism to bring in the closet racists to the outright foaming nationalists. They were helped in this regard by 70 years of self-mythologising good old Blighty putting it up to the Gerrys. These ploys can be seen in everything from the Annual Poppy Nazi campaign to the 2012 orgy of flag waving that was the London Olympics.

Ultimately, they didn't believe any of it, either funding the NHS instead or the outright racist stuff. They believed in the true goal though, and they managed to whip up the requisite fervour in the frothing masses to ensure their masters would be happy.

There is a lot of truth in that...

But I reakon you think that anyone who doesn't think like you is part of "the frothing masses"

The Brits were never really on board with EU...it's in their DNA, the results of the last election was staggering in its vindication of the Brexit Referendum.

We don't know how the next ten years will pan out...I'd hope for our sake the British economy doesn't tank, because not only did we have to go cap in hand to them a few short years ago we may have to again and our youth have flocked there for decades seeking employment opportunities they'd never get here.

Leaving the EU would be a disaster for us here in this small backwater with our reliance on FDI and indeed EU oversight...if I'd my way the IMF would still control Government spending.

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

Can you produce some evidence that this is the case please...you are not the first moran to believe that the media got Trump elected so I'd be interested in seeing what evidence you have.

Or are you just making it up....or did you hear it from some barstooler or some idiot on twitter....

Sure - start with this and we can keep going for quite a while.

And please do some digging on the the connection between Robert Mercer, owner of Cambridge Analytica and the Trump campaign
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/17/facebook-cambridge-analytica-kogan-data-algorithm
https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwalladr_facebook_s_role_in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

Any chance you could return the favour for any of your fantastical claims?

AndrewJRenko

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

BJ isn't the whole Tory party. He's one person. There were at best 2 examples of potential racism in that article, number 5 being the main one.

Yes, he's just one person - the leader, elected by the members who knew exactly what they were getting.

Manach

It should be an internet rule at this stage that any argument made by the progressive at has some element of waving the race card as well as a soupcon of dated lexicon from the socialist doctrine. That the majority of people in the UK wished to leave based on a belief that they could chart their own destiny better as a nation state is a fact that non-conservatives have trouble grasping.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sure - start with this and we can keep going for quite a while.

And please do some digging on the the connection between Robert Mercer, owner of Cambridge Analytica and the Trump campaign
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/17/facebook-cambridge-analytica-kogan-data-algorithm
https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwalladr_facebook_s_role_in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy?utm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

Any chance you could return the favour for any of your fantastical claims?

I'm not the one making fanstastical claims here buddy....

Go back and read what you said....

Because it was my understanding that trust in media, including social media is plummeting across the world....

https://www.google.ie/search?source=hp&ei=WG2sXsfpE6LsxgORzpbgAg&q=trust+in+media+america&oq=trust+in+media+america&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQFhAeOgUIABCDAToCCAA6BAgAEAo6CAgAEBYQChAeOggIABANEAoQHjoICAAQCBANEB5QjQJYwDhg7D5oAHAAeACAAUeIAZcKkgECMjKYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjH9eO7qJPpAhUitnEKHRGnBSwQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

https://www.google.ie/search?source=hp&ei=7WysXsK4LdHoxgOh87agCw&q=trust+in+media+uk&oq=trust+in+media+uk&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzICCAAyBggAEBYQHjoFCAAQgwE6BAgAEApQtQJY5Rtg7CBoAHAAeACAAVGIAdoHkgECMTeYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiC4_qIqJPpAhVRtHEKHaG5DbQQ4dUDCAc&uact=5

So...how can an industry, that is in serious crisis, that is hemorrhaging trust...get a man elected to the highest office in the world.

I look forward to your detailed evidence to the contrary.

AndrewJRenko

Manach wrote: »

That the majority of people in the UK wished to leave based on a belief that they could chart their own destiny better as a nation state is a fact that non-conservatives have trouble grasping.

Any news on when they're going to get their hands on the £350 million a week to chart their own destiny?

Oh wait no, it was all a big lie.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Any news on when they're going to get their hands on the £350 million a week to chart their own destiny?

Oh wait no, it was all a big lie.

Any news on your evidence that people who voted for Trump were influenced by media to a greater degree than those who voted for Clinton....

Or are you talking through your backside?

CtevenSrowder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes, he's just one person - the leader, elected by the members who knew exactly what they were getting.

Still doesn't counteract what I said.

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

Any news on your evidence that people who voted for Trump were influenced by media to a greater degree than those who voted for Clinton....

Or are you talking through your backside?

In fairness, I made a good start on the evidence here, whereas you still haven't posted any evidence to support any of your fantastical claims, like the huge cost of gender quota for businesses, or the NGOs paying good money and achieving little, or the value achieved by Limerick regeneration, or the requirement for political parties to sign up to a feminist manifesto, or the deteriorating education standards (in the light of the very strong PISA results) or that Casey voters were pilloried in the media, or anything at all really.

So maybe you'd like to take a long, hard look in the mirror and start coming up with some evidence yourself before you try calling out others?

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

In fairness, I made a good start on the evidence here, whereas you still haven't posted any evidence to support any of your fantastical claims, like the huge cost of gender quota for businesses, or the NGOs paying good money and achieving little, or the value achieved by Limerick regeneration, or the requirement for political parties to sign up to a feminist manifesto, or the deteriorating education standards (in the light of the very strong PISA results) or that Casey voters were pilloried in the media, or anything at all really.

So maybe you'd like to take a long, hard look in the mirror and start coming up with some evidence yourself before you try calling out others?

Take a read back over the thread....I'm just holding you to your standards....

I listed a few issues I'd like to see discussed by politicians, I don't have the answers...but it's not healthy to ignore those issues.

So....can you produce evidence or are you just repeating something some moran on twitter has said?

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

Take a read back over the thread....I'm just holding you to your standards....

I listed a few issues I'd like to see discussed by politicians, I don't have the answers...but it's not healthy to ignore those issues.

So....can you produce evidence or are you just repeating something some moran on twitter has said?

I'm just holding you to my standard. If you're going to apply a standard, you have to walk the talk. I'm not expecting you to have solutions, but you have to at least produce evidence of a problem.

So let's go - where's the evidence or huge cost of gender quota for businesses, or the NGOs paying good money and achieving little, or the value achieved by Limerick regeneration, or the requirement for political parties to sign up to a feminist manifesto, or the deteriorating education standards (in the light of the very strong PISA results) or that Casey voters were pilloried in the media,

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm just holding you to my standard. If you're going to apply a standard, you have to walk the talk. I'm not expecting you to have solutions, but you have to at least produce evidence of a problem.

So let's go - where's the evidence or huge cost of gender quota for businesses, or the NGOs paying good money and achieving little, or the value achieved by Limerick regeneration, or the requirement for political parties to sign up to a feminist manifesto, or the deteriorating education standards (in the light of the very strong PISA results) or that Casey voters were pilloried in the media,

There is no evidence that those issues have ever being discussed in any meaningful way....


"Is there a single party in this country who willingly discusses".

I'd have concerns over the issues I listed...who knows, I could be wrong or misled...

Tokyo

Silentcorner wrote: »

There is no evidence that those issues have ever being discussed in any meaningful way....you complete moron.

Look back at my first post in this thread...read the words carefully....slowly...or call you mum into to the room to read it to you if you have to....

Mod: @Silentcorner - take 24 hours from the thread to learn how to discuss like an adult.

Yellow_Fern

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm just holding you to my standard. If you're going to apply a standard, you have to walk the talk. I'm not expecting you to have solutions, but you have to at least produce evidence of a problem.

So let's go - where's the evidence or huge cost of gender quota for businesses, or the NGOs paying good money and achieving little, or the value achieved by Limerick regeneration, or the requirement for political parties to sign up to a feminist manifesto, or the deteriorating education standards (in the light of the very strong PISA results) or that Casey voters were pilloried in the media,

Gender quotas on corporation boards are bs. They dont help anyone and demean women. A UK company recently left the stock market to avoid them so there is a cost but the real cost is the unmeasured cost of hiring token women.

Have you ever talked to senior cycle maths teachers? They tend to agree with the idea that maths standards are declining. It is hard to get objective data showing this but I guess to prove your point you have to show that education attainment is increasing to justify the increase in high marks over the last half century.

2u2me

Manach wrote: »

It should be an internet rule at this stage that any argument made by the progressive at has some element of waving the race card as well as a soupcon of dated lexicon from the socialist doctrine. That the majority of people in the UK wished to leave based on a belief that they could chart their own destiny better as a nation state is a fact that non-conservatives have trouble grasping.

At this stage I think they deliberately infer intention just to muddy the waters. A post-modernist trick, logic, reason and argument be damned, advocating for one's side and winning is the only goal. Easier to attack a strawman then a steelman.

Case in point, one of the conservatives from the quote in your signature, Roger Scruton(RIP).

George Eaton deliberately took quotes from their conversation out of context, in the hope that the tapes would never be released. When they did - it didn't even matter anymore.

"Anatomy of a Modern Hitjob": Douglas Murray

j8wk2feszrnpao

Manach wrote: »

That the majority of people in the UK wished to leave based on a belief that they could chart their own destiny better as a nation state is a fact that non-conservatives have trouble grasping.

Ive heard from a lot of Brexit voters, and never/rarely heard them use that as their main rational for voting to leave. A lot of Brexit-means-Brexit, EU army (which they had a veto against), fishing, blue passports, unrestricted EU immigration (which the UK allowed by not utilising EU directives).

Lots of free-trade-deals stuff, which hasn’t gone so great with India rebuking May on her visit, Aus priority to get a deal with the EU first, and with Trump in the US it depends on what side of the bed he gets out of (and the US will need to see the GFA adhered to), and already losing good faith in EU negotiations by going back on the EU having an office in NI.

Independent borders is a perfectly rational mindset for people to have. Those that just blame the EU, when Britain (at least their own politicians) allowed immigration to occur without implementing their own measures, is what I observed from many people.

Moving out of a huge trading block, into a World where you have less influence, where you’ll largely be the junior negotiator; we’ll have to wait to see what destiny has in store.

AndrewJRenko

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Gender quotas on corporation boards are bs. They dont help anyone and demean women. A UK company recently left the stock market to avoid them so there is a cost but the real cost is the unmeasured cost of hiring token women.

Does the UK have gender quotas for corporate boards? This article from six months ago indicates that they don't:

https://www.grantthornton.co.uk/insights/are-gender-quotas-good-for-business/

What UK company are you talking about that delisted?

Either way, the OP wasn't talking about boards and wasn't talking about the UK, so it's really not relevant to this discussion.

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Have you ever talked to senior cycle maths teachers? They tend to agree with the idea that maths standards are declining. It is hard to get objective data showing this but I guess to prove your point you have to show that education attainment is increasing to justify the increase in high marks over the last half century.

The PISA results show Irish students better than average at maths, and among top performers in reading and literacy.

But I'm not really trying to 'prove a point'. The OP claimed declining educational standards, so it's really up to the OP to prove his point.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/pisa-rankings-irish-teens-among-the-best-at-reading-in-developed-world-1.4102951

2ndcoming

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Gender quotas on corporation boards are bs. They dont help anyone and demean women. A UK company recently left the stock market to avoid them so there is a cost but the real cost is the unmeasured cost of hiring token women.

Have you ever talked to senior cycle maths teachers? They tend to agree with the idea that maths standards are declining. It is hard to get objective data showing this but I guess to prove your point you have to show that education attainment is increasing to justify the increase in high marks over the last half century.

I'd talk to the one I live with, but she's a bird so probably only making up the numbers.