Why are Irish conservatives not represented in the media/politics?

Silentcorner

suicide_circus wrote: »

how are you defining "conservative" to come to this conclusion?

He/she believes that the ordinary Irish voter is extremely discerning and will vigorously examine the respective party manifestos looking for not one/two or three but up to a dozen issues that they feel must be addressed...

Who knows, he/she might be right!!!

Everlong1

2ndcoming wrote: »

You can't address social welfare dependency when every time there's a bit of a squeeze the centre-right CONSERVATIVE political parties that have been in power since the year dot cut nearly all of the services helping people raise themselves out of that life.

Are you having a laugh? Welfare rates have been untouchable in this country for decades now and both FF and FG regularly use the welfare system to buy votes. There is without question a culture of welfare dependency among a cohort of the population, as epitomised by the likes of Margaret Cash and her ilk, who want the "right" to churn out baby after baby while not making even a token attempt to "lift themselves" out of their situation.

Everlong1

2ndcoming wrote: »

Mississippi may be closed but what's Afghanistan's immigration policy like? You may feel more at home there...

This kind of lazy knee jerk nonsense doesn't help. I'm no drooling redneck racist nor am I an Opus Dei type loon. I do share many of the OP's concerns about law and order and welfare dependency and I resent being dismissed as a nutter because of it.

Everlong1

Idbatterim wrote: »

Totally agree, many workers really struggling here, now imagine several million of the welfare budget was spent reducing income taxes, and abolishing stamp duty etc for first time buyers, instead of several billion being blown on alcohol, bookies , taks aways and rip off smart phone and tv / broadband packages...

I'd love to have a trump here, someone who doesn't care about offending anyone, because irish politicians are spineless populist weasels

Trump has been proven to be an idiot but you're spot on about the fact that we desperately need someone to start telling people the facts of life in this country. If we had an intelligent conservative who didn't come across as a buffoon like Trump or Boris Johnson I'd vote for them.

Silentcorner

Everlong1 wrote: »

This kind of lazy knee jerk nonsense doesn't help. I'm no drooling redneck racist nor am I an Opus Dei type loon. I do share many of the OP's concerns about law and order and welfare dependency and I resent being dismissed as a nutter because of it.

I used to believe that warped piety was a religious thing....it seems it's not!

osarusan

You would think that there would be a space among the Irish electorate for a party to embrace pretty basic conservative positions on social welfare, law and order, taxation, prison sentencing, and so on.

But the fact that no such party has emerged (apart from those with religious/xenophobic sides which make them unpalatable to most) suggests that such a space isn't really there on a worthwhile scale. The PDs were doing ok for a while, but with the group of politicians that had been with other parties, and by and large failed to bring a new generation of PD politicians through.

The chameleon-like flexibility of the two main parties has a lot to do with it I suppose.

donvito99

Why are we trying to shoe horn foreign (American) political concepts into our political landscape?

I had never heard of 'liberal' or 'conservative' being used in an Irish context prior to everyone's aunt and uncle joining Facebook and being radicalised by American political hysteria and conspiratorial, dog dirt youtubers.

It's pathetic.

Everlong1

Eric Cartman wrote: »

there isn't because usually they come with a religious affiliation (e.g renua) or a xenophobic link (e.g the national front) which precludes sensible conservatives from entertaining their vote. Were we to have a party which could navigate the ship avoiding those dangerous waters it would do well, but its a tough ask.

Spot on.

People respond to leadership if given half a chance. If we had a political party, or even a few courageous individuals within the mainstream political parties, who were prepared to go public on issues such as law and order, welfare reform and immigration, who weren't tainted by the religious/racist vibe you'd see more people voting for them. Look at how much publicity - and votes - Peter Casey got after only a few - very lukewarm - comments about Travellers. Yes, he might have only got 2% of the vote, but imagine what a well funded, coherent, slick PR campaign run by a professional conservative party could do. I think there is an untapped silent cohort out there who want to talk about these issues and vote for a party that's not composed of religious or racist nuts.

Everlong1

donvito99 wrote: »

Why are we trying to shoe horn foreign (American) political concepts into our political landscape?

I had never heard of 'liberal' or 'conservative' being used in an Irish context prior to everyone's aunt and uncle joining Facebook and being radicalised by American political hysteria and conspiratorial, dog dirt youtubers.

It's pathetic.

There's nothing foreign about basic political concepts. Unless there's some wonderful, unique Irish version of left wing, right wing, liberal and conservative that I've never heard of before. Feel free to enlighten us.

Everlong1

osarusan wrote: »

You would think that there would be a space among the Irish electorate for a party to embrace pretty basic conservative positions on social welfare, law and order, taxation, prison sentencing, and so on.

But the fact that no such party has emerged (apart from those with religious/xenophobic sides which make them unpalatable to most) suggests that such a space isn't really there on a worthwhile scale. The PDs were doing ok for a while, but with the group of politicians that had been with other parties, and by and large failed to bring a new generation of PD politicians through.

The chameleon-like flexibility of the two main parties has a lot to do with it I suppose.

Here's an idea. Maybe the way to go here is for an organised cohort of conservatives to join an established mainstream party - Fine Gael would seem to be the obvious choice - and try to push the conservative agenda from within that party? Remember the Militant Tendency in the British Labour party years ago? Yes, they failed ultimately because there was no taste for hard left politics in Britain at that time, but there may well be a receptive audience for more conservative politics here that could be exploited within FG. Any thoughts?

Fred Cryton

I think it's largely because Ireland was such a poor country only a generation ago. People associate the bad times in their minds with socially conservative times so they all want to be on the "progressive train". This is not the case for the UK or US where the 1950's and 1980's were boom times. So there is more of a counter culture in those nations due to the effect of de-industrialization.

Whatever about social conservatism, Ireland is absolutely crying out for a fiscally conservative party with a focus on tax cutting, major public sector reform and cutting the enormous 20 billion euro a year welfare budget. FG seem to have abandoned all of that in order to appeal to the smug middle class public sector workers and endear themselves to welfare recipients (little good that did them in last election).

donvito99

Everlong1 wrote: »

Unless there's some wonderful, unique Irish version of left wing, right wing, liberal and conservative that I've never heard of before.

There is. The fact that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have lead (almost) every government since the foundation of the State would suggest that the political spectrum and political issues you wish to force on Ireland won't fit.

Silentcorner

donvito99 wrote: »

There is. The fact that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have lead (almost) every government since the foundation of the State would suggest that the political spectrum and political issues you wish to force on Ireland won't fit.

And we have suffered three massive waves of emigration...gone bankrupt only ten years ago...we are one of the most indebted nations in the EU....we have the highest jobless households in the EU...we have a dysfunctional housing market for about 30 years now....cocaine epidemic, obesity epidemic, mental health epidemic....a complete joke of a health system, terrible public transport...

If it wasn't for our Corporation Tax scam we would be one of the poorest countries in Europe.

It's not working out too well really when you scratch beneath the surface....

And that is before we get into Tribunals and Political corruption and it's cost to all of us.

Silentcorner

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I think it's largely because Ireland was such a poor country only a generation ago. People associate the bad times in their minds with socially conservative times so they all want to be on the "progressive train". This is not the case for the UK or US where the 1950's and 1980's were boom times. So there is more of a counter culture in those nations due to the effect of de-industrialization.

Whatever about social conservatism, Ireland is absolutely crying out for a fiscally conservative party with a focus on tax cutting, major public sector reform and cutting the enormous 20 billion euro a year welfare budget. FG seem to have abandoned all of that in order to appeal to the smug middle class public sector workers and endear themselves to welfare recipients (little good that did them in last election).

We do seem to be scarred from those dark times, in a very unhealthy manner too...if someone asks, what is the cost of this to the taxpayer they'll be accused of every ism/phobic twitter can throw at them.....

The direction of FG has mystified me in recent years....they have abandoned the very thing they had a reputation for...as a fiscally conservative party...they'll pay a huge price in time for that, they already are!

kowloonkev

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Have you tried listening to Newstalk? Or watching Ivan and Matt's gammon fest on VMTV? Or reading the Business Post or the Mail?

Newstalk? You must be joking. The Irish Mail is central at best; but it's right of all the others if that's what right means now.

The problem as has been stated is that people in the public eye are afraid of coming down on the same side of the line as the church on any issue. Until church rule fades into history then it would be hard to come out with conservative views especially on social issues.

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

What do you think the purpose of it is?
What do you think the purpose of setting targets for Female Directors is?

This is private enterprise, how they recruit, how much they pay their employees, who they appoint directors is entirely up to the owners, the government has no business interfering.

So just to be clear, there is no gender quota legislation applying to Irish businesses, agreed?

Were there many other inaccuracies or exaggerations in your initial list?

Everlong1

donvito99 wrote: »

There is. The fact that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have lead (almost) every government since the foundation of the State would suggest that the political spectrum and political issues you wish to force on Ireland won't fit.

The two parties you refer to have their own political ideologies. They might not call themselves left wing or right wing, liberal or conservative, but they do fit into those categories quite easily. FF = traditionally conservative on social issues, happy to throw money at everyone to buy votes makes them populist or, if you prefer, left wing. FG = traditionally liberal on social issues, conservative on economics (although the current FG seem just as happy to throw money at welfare as FF were).

What exactly is uniquely Irish about any of this? Just because we don't label our politics as left/right, conservative/liberal the way other countries do doesn't mean we don't follow those trends. You're deluded if you think we have some happy unique Irish "third way". We don't.

AndrewJRenko

Idbatterim wrote: »

Those were very different times! A huge sort of the sf surge was people being robbed on housing...

A new worker first party, would do well here

Worker first? Great idea - improved rights to trade union representation, better treatment of worker cooperatives, elimination of worker exploitation through the gig economy - that sort of thing?

listermint

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am going to respectfully disagree...

Without being condescending.


You disagreeing and the facts are two different things.

If you were right, the party would exist and would be actually challenging for government or be in it.


The figures speak for themselves.

You've combined so many of your personal topics together that you are blinded by reality.

osarusan

Everlong1 wrote: »

Here's an idea. Maybe the way to go here is for an organised cohort of conservatives to join an established mainstream party - Fine Gael would seem to be the obvious choice - and try to push the conservative agenda from within that party? Remember the Militant Tendency in the British Labour party years ago? Yes, they failed ultimately because there was no taste for hard left politics in Britain at that time, but there may well be a receptive audience for more conservative politics here that could be exploited within FG. Any thoughts?

Again, begs the question as to why an organised cohort of conservatives haven't tried this.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So just to be clear, there is no gender quota legislation applying to Irish businesses, agreed?

Were there many other inaccuracies or exaggerations in your initial list?

No, there is not currently gender quota legislation applied to the Private Sector, so I used misleading terminology initially, I should have said proposed as opposed to being.

It is fair to assume that there will be...given the direction of the current legislation...that is not an exaggeration or inaccurate to suggest.

My issue is that the Government has no business interfering with Private Enterprises.

Everlong1

Silentcorner wrote: »

We do seem to be scarred from those dark times, in a very unhealthy manner too...if someone asks, what is the cost of this to the taxpayer they'll be accused of every ism/phobic twitter can throw at them.....

But here's the thing: who's orchestrating the hysteria that ensues when a conservative raises their head? It's not Joe or Jane Public, who may well want to hear these issues discussed in a frank and open manner. It's the Fintan O'Tooles and their ilk who are stifling any real debate and who seem to have a ready made audience. In part this is probably a backlash against generations of Church rule, but it's high time we moved on. If people can vote SF and forget about the kind of atrocities that party condoned we should be willing to vote conservative and not assume we'll be plunged back into the Middle Ages era of sexual mores.

Silentcorner

listermint wrote: »

Without being condescending.


You disagreeing and the facts are two different things.

If you were right, the party would exist and would be actually challenging for government or be in it.


The figures speak for themselves.

You've combined so many of your personal topics together that you are blinded by reality.

Well...my vote was not included in the 2%....I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Blinded by what reality?

I have a different stance on very pertinent economic and social issues....are you shocked by that?

Everlong1

osarusan wrote: »

Again, begs the question as to why an organised cohort of conservatives haven't tried this.

The revolution starts here! If only. I'd actually be interested in taking this further myself but unfortunately my chosen career path precludes me from overt political activity.

Silentcorner

Everlong1 wrote: »

But here's the thing: who's orchestrating the hysteria that ensues when a conservative raises their head? It's not Joe or Jane Public, who may well want to hear these issues discussed in a frank and open manner. It's the Fintan O'Tooles and their ilk who are stifling any real debate and who seem to have a ready made audience. In part this is probably a backlash against generations of Church rule, but it's high time we moved on. If people can vote SF and forget about the kind of atrocities that party condoned we should be willing to vote conservative and not assume we'll be plunged back into the Middle Ages era of sexual mores.

It's a combination of elements, we have always had shocking public discourse in this country...it's like we are terrified of offending someone or terrified that someone might think less of us...it's weird....it also makes things very slow to change here....media in this country never touched Church Sex Abuse Scandals or Political Corruption in any meaningful way until they could no longer ignore them.

Currently our media is riddled with Political Correctness that has swept across our culture over the last two decades....no one can step out of line, the industry itself is suffering as a consequence.

But people's trust in media is at an all time low, and politicians aren't exactly too far from that either....

It is however extremely difficult for a new political party to emerge from a funding and administration point of view.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

there isn't because usually they come with a religious affiliation (e.g renua) or a xenophobic link (e.g the national front) which precludes sensible conservatives from entertaining their vote. Were we to have a party which could navigate the ship avoiding those dangerous waters it would do well, but its a tough ask.

Then why hasn't somebody set up said party? Even you?

There is NO oblgation by the State to provide you with you such an option. Or any other option.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Worker first? Great idea - improved rights to trade union representation, better treatment of worker cooperatives, elimination of worker exploitation through the gig economy - that sort of thing?

Now you are talking....we don't get to discuss those issues either...

Eric Cartman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Worker first? Great idea - improved rights to trade union representation, better treatment of worker cooperatives, elimination of worker exploitation through the gig economy - that sort of thing?

Yeah except those things dont help anyone except unions and the tax man... if we wanted that craic we could vote pbp and all be poor

Silentcorner

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then why hasn't somebody set up said party? Even you?

There is NO oblgation by the State to provide you with you such an option. Or any other option.

Because FF along with FG and Labour (who were in office) changed the rules on Political Party Funding, you are very limited in what a person can donate to a party, it was sold to us as a way of regaining trust in political parties....it had the added benefit of course of eliminating the possibility of giving established parties any meaningful competition.

It takes huge resourses to launch a new political party...

AndrewJRenko

kowloonkev wrote: »

Newstalk? You must be joking. The Irish Mail is central at best; but it's right of all the others if that's what right means now.

The problem as has been stated is that people in the public eye are afraid of coming down on the same side of the line as the church on any issue. Until church rule fades into history then it would be hard to come out with conservative views especially on social issues.

Yes Newstalk - have you listened to Pat Kenny or Ivan or Ciara (on economic matters)? They are classic Tories.

And who are the conservatives who are afraid to speak out? Would it be the Iona folks with their weekly national newspaper columns about being silenced? Or the usual economists or consultants wheeled out at every opportunity to bemoan regulation or taxation - like Eddie Molloy or Karl Deeter or IBEC or ISME.