Offices Reopening-Will you go?

JimmyVik

seamus wrote: »

Though one guy is still going into the office every day, I don't know why. Maybe he likes the peace.

A few of the tough guys in our office going in.
Sending emails everyday - "This virus is only a bad flu, sure we all probably had it already. Ive been coming in every day and I havent got it".


One of them got clamped outside the office yesterday

JTMan

How are these people allowed come in to the office? How are senior management allowing it? The government advise is clear, those who can do their job from home, even in essential services, must work from home.

gimli2112

road_high wrote: »

Don’t mean to be blunt but if they want you there and you’ve signed up to it and it’s deemed safe why wouldn’t they be within their rights to expect you in ?

I work from home already in my role but I can’t wait to get out and meet colleagues and clients face to face again. Only so much you can do over the phone and emails. Sooner we are back in business the better

by the same token why would you force people to come into work when they can do the job adequately from home? employers should be flexible, many won't be however and will make a bad situation worse for no real reason

I also wouldn't trust any employer or even government as to a workplace being safe, it certainly won't be as safe and they may deem it an acceptable risk to get back up and running again

hmmm

I've no problem with the office, but I am uncomfortable with using public transport.

Our company is taking this on-board. Initially it looks like the office will be open for people who want to work in an office (e.g. unsuitable home working environment), while the rest can continue WFH.

It's hard to gauge productivity. Some are definitely more productive, some less. You also miss the accidental collisions that occur in the office. I'd say 40 to 50% would be happy to continue working at home after this, with no loss of productivity and a happier workforce.

I agree the open plan office is potentially dead. We'll have to have cubicles, or else one employee per 4 desks.

If an employer forced me to come into the office I'd start looking for a new job. That's easier for more senior employees only of course.

Unearthly

JTMan wrote: »

How are these people allowed come in to the office? How are senior management allowing it? The government advise is clear, those who can do their job from home, even in essential services, must work from home.

Yes in my place of work you need a letter from HR to say you are an essential worker which I assume is what you present to the Garda if they stop you. Only a tiny % are eligible for this. Security would send me packing if I even attempted to go to the building

JimmyVik

JTMan wrote: »

How are these people allowed come in to the office? How are senior management allowing it? The government advise is clear, those who can do their job from home, even in essential services, must work from home.

Here is a story that I may or may not have first hand knowledge of. If you know what I mean.

This company want people in the office, even if they can work from home. Its the culture. If you are sick they will insist you to work from home, but if you ask to work from home they wont let you.

Then the lawyers twisted the wording for essential services so staff were made to be essential workers. They are not, but the wording could be stretched to say they are.

The company that owns them is a bank. Not a high street bank. And a bank not in the classic sense of a bank. Its not even in Ireland. The part in ireland develop training software for them and other companies. So they are classed as financial / banking or whatever and therefore essential workers.

Now banking is essential to keep wages going into accounts and money flowing etc. They and even their mothership have nothing to do with that at all, but are included by stretching the definition.
If a company has enough high powered lawyers they can twist anything to suit themselves.

So they were all told to come into the office from the start. They had a few covid cases and staff all got sent home then. Only because people started calling in sick in order to be able to stay out of the office. Now they want everyone back ASAP.

I will add that the orders for the Irish workers to be in the office are not coming from Ireland either.

ChikiChiki

Snow Garden wrote: »

So if a vaccine isn't available by say April 2021 (highly likely), you think it's ok for an employee to refuse to come to work even if the employer implements safety practices?

In 2020, there is all the technology available for the employer to make it work for an office based employee. Its not just being in the office that is the danger. It is the commute to the office also.

Employee could have compromised family members. Yes it is ok for an employee to refuse to travel to work in a Pandemic. These are exceptional times.

Snow Garden

ChikiChiki wrote: »

In 2020, there is all the technology available for the employer to make it work for an office based employee. Its not just being in the office that is the danger. It is the commute to the office also.

Employee could have compromised family members. Yes it is ok for an employee to refuse to travel to work in a Pandemic. These are exceptional times.

Yeah Yeah Yeah. if my auntie had balls, she's be my uncle.

If the employee works on a production line and has his/her own car and the employer provides social distancing practices and masks and gloves etc etc etc....does that employee have the right to stay at home on full pay while waiting for a vaccine in 2021 or 2022 or never?

JTMan

Unearthly wrote: »

Yes in my place of work you need a letter from HR to say you are an essential worker which I assume is what you present to the Garda if they stop you. Only a tiny % are eligible for this. Security would send me packing if I even attempted to go to the building

There is supposed to be 2 criteria before someone is allowed into the office:
(1) They are an essential services worker.
(2) Their job cannot be performed at home.

What type of office work are these people doing that is both essential and cannot be done from home? Surely very little work meets these 2 criteria.

So they were all told to come into the office from the start. They had a few covid cases and staff all got sent home then. Only because people started calling in sick in order to be able to stay out of the office. Now they want everyone back ASAP.

I will add that the orders for the Irish workers to be in the office are not coming from Ireland either.

This reflects very poorly on the type of company and how they treat their staff. When good times hit again, these type of companies lose good staff.

JoeA3

I work in the area of remote collaboration tools. Working from home is nothing new for me, I have everything I need here to get my job done and my day job hasn't changed a great deal since this start (aside from juggling family stuff during the working day).

However, as soon as the green light is given, I'm going back, at least part of the week... I miss the face to face interaction, jeez I even miss the canteen.

JimmyVik

JTMan wrote: »

There is supposed to be 2 criteria before someone is allowed into the office:
(1) They are an essential services worker.
(2) Their job cannot be performed at home.

What type of office work are these people doing that is both essential and cannot be done from home? Surely very little work meets these 2 criteria.



This reflects very poorly on the type of company and how they treat their staff. When good times hit again, these type of companies lose good staff.

I know. Its a horrible company.
So you have the staff marked as essential workers.
And that their jobs cannot be performed at home is subjective.


And sure anyone can give you a letter to say anything.
The gardai arent following up the letters are they.


Sure I heard of someone yesterday with a fake letter from HSE so they can go shopping at whatever time etc.

seamus

JTMan wrote: »

How are these people allowed come in to the office?

Don't ask, don't tell, basically.

Nobody wants to be firing staff if they're not putting anyone else at risk (i.e. not mixing with other employees), and can feign ignorance if the Gardai ask why an employee has been turning up in the office.

Large companies obviously can just lock the doors and have their security guys sitting outside all day.

In smaller companies, everyone will have a key to the office, so there's practically very little you can do to stop someone coming in if they insist.

manlad

seamus wrote: »

I think it's going to go deeper than that.
HSA regulations will start mandating that employers put in general controls around infection spread, that may make the open plan office practically unworkable.

Such as "where employee work areas are not separated by a physical barrier, employees must be able to work so they are no less than 2m from any other employee.

This may not be a requirement to set up whole offices for people, but potentially the return of the four-walled cubicle

Seems to be fairly accepted in my place that nobody is going back until the end of the summer at the earliest.

Though one guy is still going into the office every day, I don't know why. Maybe he likes the peace.

You're over thinking it. Companies with open planned offices are not going to spend significant investment to revert back to cubicle working environments. If you're going to isolate staff then money would be better spent in enabling your work from home/flexible working policy strategy. The office will become an extension of someone's job, somewhere they attend sporadically to collaborate in a way the are unable to do virtually. The remaining desks in the office will be agile/hot desks for staff to use when they are onsite. Real estate costs too much to not utilise correctly.

GreeBo

hullaballoo wrote: »

The idea that hotdesking will increase any time soon is laughable. It shows no understanding of transmission of the virus. The expense of cleaning every desk, keyboard, monitor, chair etc. on a daily basis and deeply enough to actually effectively prevent spread would be a crippling cost for business.

Those returning to offices will have their own desk and will be required to leave it clear each day and a routine cleaning will be done after hours. A deep clean over the weekend.

What office managers are going to have to really start thinking about are shared surfaces. Printers, lifts, coffee machines, water coolers. Even paper.

My own office is still fairly poor at doing paperless. Old habits really. But WFH may hopefully break those habits because the printers really should be thrown into a skip in this day and age.

Returning to office based work is really a minefield that I don't think many employers in the area have thought about. Or maybe they won't think about them and will just reopen as soon as it's allowed.

As has been rightly pointed out, it's a risky game.

Its much more than this.
Our office has been estimating what is involved in cleaning shared areas hourly (communal areas, toilets, lifts, stairs, etc, etc) and basically determined that going back while social distancing is in place is not feasible.

GreeBo

hmmm wrote: »

I've no problem with the office, but I am uncomfortable with using public transport.

That makes no sense to me tbh.
Even if you drive yourself you are going to be in contact with everyone else in your office, many of whom would have used public transport themselves.

seamus

manlad wrote: »

You're over thinking it. Companies with open planned offices are not going to spend significant investment to revert back to cubicle working environments. If you're going to isolate staff then money would be better spent in enabling your work from home/flexible working policy strategy. The office will become an extension of someone's job, somewhere they attend sporadically to collaborate in a way the are unable to do virtually. The remaining desks in the office will be agile/hot desks for staff to use when they are onsite. Real estate costs too much to not utilise correctly.

Perhaps. But if you consider modern open-plan environments, even sending half of your staff home would be barely sufficient to maintain distance between employees.

Many companies don't have the resources to send half of their staff home. I'd eat my hat if half of staff have the space to work at home even part time. People are making do at the moment, but that doesn't mean they're happy to make it a permanent arrangement.

As hulla mentions, the cleanliness/h&s requirements might make hotdesking an absolute no-no in the medium term.

So simple partitioned cubicles might become the most reasonable way to get people back into the office in the short-term without having to massively increase your office space. Everyone has 2m-high, 3 cm thick walls around them. They can sit 50cm away from their nearest neighbour and nobody is at risk.

nelly17

Honestly I think my place whill have their eyes opened as we rent a couple of big buildings and see the opportuinity as a cost saving measure and probably give people of working from home more long term and downsize on the property estate

hullaballoo

GreeBo wrote: »

Its much more than this.
Our office has been estimating what is involved in cleaning shared areas hourly (communal areas, toilets, lifts, stairs, etc, etc) and basically determined that going back while social distancing is in place is not feasible.

After I posted this last night, I really turned my mind to the problem and realised this. It's just not a runner until post vaccine really without creating huge numbers of cases.

If they are feigning to try and contain transmission in the office environment, do they send everyone home for 2 weeks any time there's a case in the office? In the building?

Never mind the total impracticality of containing transmission in the office world, why tf would anyone take the risk in the face of the very obvious costs?

GreeBo

seamus wrote: »

So simple partitioned cubicles might become the most reasonable way to get people back into the office in the short-term without having to massively increase your office space. Everyone has 2m-high, 3 cm thick walls around them. They can sit 50cm away from their nearest neighbour and nobody is at risk.

But everyone shares a door, toilet, hallway, lift, stairs, lightswitch, tea station, etc, etc

I can't see it working while any sort of distancing is in place.

Kintarō Hattori

The company I work for have an office with a mix of people who'd be in every day and then sales who would have been out on the road, only coming into the office occasionally. Realistically everyone could do their job from home but the attitude was there that they wanted people in the office when they weren't out visiting clients. Some folk got to work from home once a week if you wanted it.

As of now, the attitude seems to be shifting that we don't all need to be in an office all the time. Productivity is high and the parts of the company that have been affected by other businesses shutting down are moving focus to help the parts which aren't affected. Once this is done and dusted there is every likelihood that people will be allowed to continue working from home.

GreeBo

hullaballoo wrote: »

After I posted this last night, I really turned my mind to the problem and realised this. It's just not a runner until post vaccine really without creating huge numbers of cases.

If they are feigning to try and contain transmission in the office environment, do they send everyone home for 2 weeks any time there's a case in the office? In the building?

Never mind the total impracticality of containing transmission in the office world, why tf would anyone take the risk in the face of the very obvious costs?

Unless everyone is in a hazmat suit or has a personal cleaner its not possible imo.

Anyway, what is the point in going into an office if you cant congregate with your colleagues in meeting rooms etc? might as well be at home.

GreeBo

Problem solved!

hmmm

GreeBo wrote: »

That makes no sense to me tbh.
Even if you drive yourself you are going to be in contact with everyone else in your office, many of whom would have used public transport themselves.

I can avoid contact with people in my office.

I can't avoid people on public transport. I don't actually know how public transport is even going to operate, having large numbers of strangers all squashed together just makes no sense.

plodder

hmmm wrote: »

I can avoid contact with people in my office.

I can't avoid people on public transport. I don't actually know how public transport is even going to operate, having large numbers of strangers all squashed together just makes no sense.

and if someone in your office contracts the virus, everyone else will be contactable, unlike necessarily on public transport. Just before the restrictions kicked off, we were informed of a case in our office, and the people who were in direct contact, were contacted directly. I think the ability to do that will bear on the ability to re-open workplaces.

GreeBo

hmmm wrote: »

I can avoid contact with people in my office.

I can't avoid people on public transport. I don't actually know how public transport is even going to operate, having large numbers of strangers all squashed together just makes no sense.

Your office doesnt have a door or lift or stairwell or corridors or bathrooms or taps or toilets?

Little A

There is supposed to be 2 criteria before someone is allowed into the office:
(1) They are an essential services worker.
(2) Their job cannot be performed at home.

What type of office work are these people doing that is both essential and cannot be done from home? Surely very little work meets these 2 criteria.

XX

JimmyVik

hullaballoo wrote: »

After I posted this last night, I really turned my mind to the problem and realised this. It's just not a runner until post vaccine really without creating huge numbers of cases.

If they are feigning to try and contain transmission in the office environment, do they send everyone home for 2 weeks any time there's a case in the office? In the building?

Never mind the total impracticality of containing transmission in the office world, why tf would anyone take the risk in the face of the very obvious costs?

Or what if someone has a cough

maneno

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There are also 100s or 1000s of civil servants at home getting full pay, who can't go to the offices as they are not open, and don't have the facility to work from home. I have a friend on a 50k salary who wasn't issued a laptop and office isn't open, so he's getting full pay for doing nothing.
How long is it going to be before the public/civil service take wage cuts?

So your expectation is that all public/civil servants should take a wage cut based on your friends circumstances? The mind boggles!!

maneno

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There are also 100s or 1000s of civil servants at home getting full pay, who can't go to the offices as they are not open, and don't have the facility to work from home. I have a friend on a 50k salary who wasn't issued a laptop and office isn't open, so he's getting full pay for doing nothing.
How long is it going to be before the public/civil service take wage cuts?

So your expectation is that all public/civil servants should take a wage cut based on your friends circumstances? The mind boggles!!

JTMan

Fascinating FT article entitled "The end of the office?" here (paywall).

- “The notion of putting 7,000 people in a building may be a thing of the past,” said Jes Staley of Barclays.
- “In six weeks we’ve taken almost the entirety of the back offices of corporate America and moved them to kitchens and living rooms and it’s been pretty seamless,” causing companies are having serious discussions about cutting back on real estate.
- WPP say they expect it to herald a “permanent change” to his working practices“I spend around £35m on property in a year,” he said. “I’d much rather invest that in people than expensive offices.”

Short-term until there is a vaccine:
- Desks in many offices to be separated by perspex but there is a global shortage of perspex.
- Shift work to be introduced in many companies.
- Spreading working over the 7 day week to be introduced in some companies.
- Skyscrapers in London seen totally incompatible with social distancing (not enough lifts etc).
- Thermal imaging being introduced in some buildings.
- Lifts will be disinfected hourly.

I think re-opening buildings will, in many cases, be more hassle than it is worth, until there is a vaccine. Once there is a vaccine, offices can reopen without all this hassle re-jigging offices and at the same time significantly reduce real estate.