Can an employer force employees to change to work from home

average_runner

Connavar wrote: »

Think we were posting at the same time. As I mentioned above, its not the work from home being implemented now that I have a problem with. Its the fact that they are making it permanent

Alot of IT companies doing this and its the way forward. You are entitled to a desk and chair after 3 months.

No need to be in an office anymore. It's the way forward

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Alot of IT companies doing this and its the way forward. You are entitled to a desk and chair after 3 months.

No need to be in an office anymore. It's the way forward

Where is this entitlement set out? I know good employers are doing this, but I don't think it is a legal entitlement.

AndyBoBandy

cython wrote: »

The tax credit is nowhere near that. Employers can (but aren't obliged to) pay employees €3.20 tax free per day to WFH, and if they don't then you can claim relief on a very small amount of your home energy bills

It's 10% of your annual heating/electricity/internet cost. Myself & OH only claimed this credit in the last 2 weeks (home based the last 8 years)

For me, I got 365 days worth of it, for herself, they deducted weekends, bank holidays & annual leave, so it all depends on who you get when you make the claim.... (she's foreign, I'm Irish) We were also able to claim back 4 years back to 2016.

For each year she got a refund of €90, I got a little bit more (don't know the exact figure as I also adjusted my medical insurance relief figure).

It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it's also not nothing, so worth doing...

You can only add the claim in the 2019 review, and for previous years, they need to manually add it for you as the option to include it only appeared in the 2019 reviews.

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Where is this entitlement set out? I know good employers are doing this, but I don't think it is a legal entitlement.

Maybe I am wrong, I know ours did it and a good few others.

Non solum non ambulabit

Connavar wrote: »

My employer has decided to close it's one of its offices in cork and is telling us that some of us will have to work from home full time from now on.
We have the ability to do this at present and are doing it during the lockdown which is fine but I have no interest in doing it long term.
Should we get redundancy if they force it on us and we don't agree?

I'm sure they can

bucketybuck

coolisin wrote: »

I wouldn't expect redundancy.

The employer has closed the office. Shut it down. Permanently.

If I was the OP I would expect to hear the word redundancy very quickly should they start complaining.

Mrs OBumble

bucketybuck wrote: »

The employer has closed the office. Shut it down. Permanently.

If I was the OP I would expect to hear the word redundancy very quickly should they start complaining.

If the contract has the standard clauses about being able to vary the workplace, then I'd expect to hear the word insubordination, rather than the word redundancy.

AndrewJRenko

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If the contract has the standard clauses about being able to vary the workplace, then I'd expect to hear the word insubordination, rather than the word redundancy.

There's a difference between varying the workplace and not having a workplace at all. Work from home is fundamentally different.

rn

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

It's 10% of your annual heating/electricity/internet cost. Myself & OH only claimed this credit in the last 2 weeks (home based the last 8 years)

For me, I got 365 days worth of it, for herself, they deducted weekends, bank holidays & annual leave, so it all depends on who you get when you make the claim.... (she's foreign, I'm Irish) We were also able to claim back 4 years back to 2016.

For each year she got a refund of €90, I got a little bit more (don't know the exact figure as I also adjusted my medical insurance relief figure).

It's not a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it's also not nothing, so worth doing...

You can only add the claim in the 2019 review, and for previous years, they need to manually add it for you as the option to include it only appeared in the 2019 reviews.

BTW you've over claimed this credit, you shouldn't claim 365 days of it. Only the days you worked. Weekends, public holidays and your own 20 days annual leave should be deducted from the 365 days.

It's 10% sum of annual light, heat and broadband. Divided by 365, multiply by no of days working.

AndyBoBandy

rn wrote: »

BTW you've over claimed this credit, you shouldn't claim 365 days of it. Only the days you worked. Weekends, public holidays and your own 20 days annual leave should be deducted from the 365 days.

It's 10% sum of annual light, heat and broadband. Divided by 365, multiply by no of days working.

.

I leave my computers on 24/7, and most weekends would check emails on both days, and reply to a few too.

I’m only assuming they gave me 365 days worth as they never asked me to remove the weekend days and vacation/bank holiday days, but perhaps they calculated this on my behalf, it was just when the OH claimed, they asked her to calculate this...

Akrasia

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If the contract has the standard clauses about being able to vary the workplace, then I'd expect to hear the word insubordination, rather than the word redundancy.

The should definitely check their contract, many contracts do not have such a clause, and some even prohibit working from home except in exceptional circumstances.

Also, even with a relocation clause,
I’m pretty sure there are limits on how far the company can relocate the office before they need to offer redundancy but it would be decided in the courts

They can move to a different location within the same area, but they can’t relocate to a new country and expect their staff to commute an extra 2 hours a day or move house at short notice.

It would come down to your employment contract, and an interpretation of reasonableness on your part and on your employers part

If your house is completely unsuitable to WFH from and your employer isn’t offering you any support to adapt it or move to a better house, then you might have a case. On the other hand, if you have been offered all the support you need and you can WFH but you just do not want to, then you have a much weaker case.

For constructive dismissal you would need to create a record of communication with your employer stating your objections to WFH including statements that the isolation is affecting your mental health and your performance at work cannot be guaranteed

The employer would then have an obligation to put supports in place to address your concerns, should they fail to do so or if they dismiss them entirely and proceed with the change then this could help you build a case

Firblog

Let me get this right, the employer wants the OP to lease them a room in his house for 220 odd days a year for free? They won't have to pay for rent/heating/broadband/electric or maintenance?



Sweet deal

rn

To be fair wfh is win win when you think of reduction in costs of going to work. Don't have the same commuting costs, transit times and clothes costs than if in the office. Maintaining the work life balance is biggest challenge.

Any payments above the 3.20 per day is likely to attract BIK and increased tax bill

Employer still has responsibility of health and safety and a large portion of costs of that, if you're working from home. So desk, chair etc.

These are unusual and ground breaking times for the office. And it's stressful adapting to the change for both employees and employers.

listermint

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

.

I leave my computers on 24/7, and most weekends would check emails on both days, and reply to a few too.

I’m only assuming they gave me 365 days worth as they never asked me to remove the weekend days and vacation/bank holiday days, but perhaps they calculated this on my behalf, it was just when the OH claimed, they asked her to calculate this...

Well that's just silly isn't it . You only use the things probably 40 per cent of their run times if even.

Jim Root

Has anyone got a desk & chair off their employer to WFH?

krissovo

Jim Root wrote: »

Has anyone got a desk & chair off their employer to WFH?

Most people I know myself included expense them back. At least then it fits the decor of your home. I have to sign that it meets health and safety which is the only caveat.

bucketybuck

Firblog wrote: »

Let me get this right, the employer wants the OP to lease them a room in his house for 220 odd days a year for free? They won't have to pay for rent/heating/broadband/electric or maintenance?



Sweet deal

I believe its the employee that would prefer to stay at home, but they also want the employer to pay them and provide extra equipment for it.

One of those "have cake and eat it" deals.

Connavar

bucketybuck wrote: »

I believe its the employee that would prefer to stay at home, but they also want the employer to pay them and provide extra equipment for it.

One of those "have cake and eat it" deals.

Ehh no, I dont want to work from home...
I have said a few times that I plan on leaving the company if I dont get an option to return to the office when things have opened up again

EDIT: Also, looks like my contract states that the company can change the place of work without compensation so looks like they have themselves covered (Thanks to those who pointed this out)

FFVII

Connavar wrote: »

Ehh no, I dont want to work from home...
I have said a few times that I plan on leaving the company if I dont get an option to return to the office when things have opened up again

EDIT: Also, looks like my contract states that the company can change the place of work without compensation so looks like they have themselves covered (Thanks to those who pointed this out)

You must have the crack in work all day.

Firblog

Connavar wrote: »

Also, looks like my contract states that the company can change the place of work without compensation so looks like they have themselves covered (Thanks to those who pointed this out)

Don't believe that they can change the place of work AND make you pay to provide it without covering your costs?

Lets face it at a minimum your heating and electric costs will most likely nearly double, spending an extra 40 hrs a week at home...

It cannot be legal that they can push their cost onto you.

JayRoc

I'm surprised at how few people would have a problem with this.

Some homes simply cannot be worked from.

And that aside, a lot of people would not be interested in using their gaff as a permanent office especially if they weren't even given a choice

Firblog

I forgot to mention you have to pay the mortgage on the room your employer has now taken control off. Lets say its the small box room - 10% of your house is now not yours to do with as you please.. What is 10% of the typical mortgage? €150+ per month?

Stheno

Firblog wrote: »

I forgot to mention you have to pay the mortgage on the room your employer has now taken control off. Lets say its the small box room - 10% of your house is now not yours to do with as you please.. What is 10% of the typical mortgage? €150+ per month?

You can claim tax relief on that

For me saving 800 quid net a year on my bus ticket more than covers additional utilities and I get at least three hours a day extra back, also save on clothes and work lunches

So overall I'd be better off wfh

krissovo

Firblog wrote: »

I forgot to mention you have to pay the mortgage on the room your employer has now taken control off. Lets say its the small box room - 10% of your house is now not yours to do with as you please.. What is 10% of the typical mortgage? €150+ per month?

What a crock of shoite, most home offices double up as guest rooms, gaming rooms or whatever you want to put in there.

Lots of people with no experience making up issues that are never there rather than creative solutions.

Dravokivich

krissovo wrote: »

What a crock of shoite, most home offices double up as guest rooms, gaming rooms or whatever you want to put in there.

Lots of people with no experience making up issues that are never there rather than creative solutions.

Mine doubles up as a kitchen...

listermint

Firblog wrote: »

I forgot to mention you have to pay the mortgage on the room your employer has now taken control off. Lets say its the small box room - 10% of your house is now not yours to do with as you please.. What is 10% of the typical mortgage? €150+ per month?

Are you on the wind up or...

JayRoc

krissovo wrote: »

What a crock of shoite, most home offices double up as guest rooms, gaming rooms or whatever you want to put in there.

Lots of people with no experience making up issues that are never there rather than creative solutions.

I'm honestly just curious and not having a go, but do people replying to this like it wouldn't be a problem all live in houses?

Stheno

JayRoc wrote: »

I'm honestly just curious and not having a go, but do people replying to this like it wouldn't be a problem all live in houses?

I live in a four bed house with my OH

Both of us work from home at the miment

Two.of the spare rooms are for visitors/his adult kids when they visit and one has a workspace as well

One is used as a home office/laundry room as it stores the tumble drier

I'd find it hard to.wfh in a cramped space where you couldn't shut the door on it at the end of the day tbh

Lurching

I live in a pretty big house with a dedicated office, but I'd crack up if i was forced to work from home full time.
I liked doing maybe a day every second week before this chaos started.

AndrewJRenko

Jim Root wrote: »

Has anyone got a desk & chair off their employer to WFH?

One of the tech multinationals gave staff €300 to fit out their home office.