Do you agree with mandatory vaccinations?

timsey tiger

SomeGuyCalledMi wrote: »

Any truth to the idea that the whole anti vax movement is a conspiracy by a company that manufacturers childrens coffins. Fewer vaccinated children is good for business. Wake up sheeple.

Prob. not, but there could be some truth in the theory that big oil is behind anti vaxers and anti-lock down etc.

They need people to be distrustful of science and scientific method. So attack it everywhere. At the moment people are becoming more trustful of science, because they are beginning to appreciate how it helps us.

This is alarming to them as it may mean that more people will begin to realise global warming is real.

Wibbs

Miccoli wrote: »

I'd take the vaccine myself if it was realesed. However mandatory vaccinations or removing public services for those who don't take it, just doesn't sit right. It would effectively be copying the idea of china's social credit system and would set a dangerous precedent in my opinion.

Indeed. I'm very much pro vaccines and frankly think anti vaccination types are idiots, at least on that subject. I'd also agree with the Bill Gates of this world who think a much smaller world population is a good thing to aim for.

However it troubles, but doesn't altogether surprise me how so many are so happy to increase control and surveillance over a population. And we wonder how totalitarian regimes kick off and get support. Contagion, real or imagined, pathogen or people is a right charm for it and has been used by most such regimes in history as excuses and reasons for reducing liberty and exerting control.

Jeaimi

I don't believe in mandatory vaccines but I run a childcare facility and no man, woman or child without evidence of up to date vaccines will be coming through my front door. You make your decision and those us with actual responsibility for the care of others will make ours. I can't speak for nurses, doctors, hospital co-ordinators, healthcare workers, dentists, teachers, third level employees, other countries, and other employers in general but I think you will find your opportunities in life generally narrowed. So go head, you make your decision and we'll make ours. I wouldn't take away your welfare payments as I reckon you're going to need them.

Captain Flaps

Agree with the others, nobody should be forcibly vaccinated BUT if you don't have a specific exemption on medical grounds you should be excluded from stuff like public schools, playgrounds, employment opportunities etc. You're free to opt out but you also have to accept that you'll be opting yourself or your family out of certain aspects of society, so that's your choice to make. This doesn't just apply to Covid either, I think it should be the case for measles and other infectious diseases.

robinph

The Bishop Basher wrote: »

On the Covid running thread you repeatedly took the position that runners would literally have to stop and cough in each other’s mouths to pass on this virus.

If it’s so difficult to catch, why would you want to enforce social restrictions on people who aren’t vaccinated ?

Not seeing the conflict.

It remains difficult to catch whilst outside. This is about limiting access to services, such as education, for people who are not safe to be around inside because they chose to not get their kids vaccinated for entirely preventable conditions.

Wibbs

Jeaimi wrote: »

I don't believe in mandatory vaccines but I run a childcare facility and no man, woman or child without evidence of up to date vaccines will be coming through my front door.

Then you'll have to ban most people over forty then who for the most part would have caught the "childhood" illnesses like measles, mumps, chicken pox etc rather than have been vaccinated against them. I caught all of the above as a kid, how could I show that in a "vaccine passport"? It would be kinda pointless to be vaccinated against diseases I already have immunity to. Never mind most people wouldn't possess an up to date vaccine passport.

Wibbs

robinph wrote: »

It remains difficult to catch whilst outside.

Actually you have zero clue if this is the case. Certainly you nor anyone else can't make that claim so confidently. We simply don't know.

noodler

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I will kick this off I will not be taken it end of story and I will not be answering to ANYBODY my body my choice.

How many so called PRO CHOICE yes voters will be screaming at people to take their vaccine.

Bill Gates in behind funding seven of these things in development I would not trust that creepy ******* as far as I would throw him.

Funny his own children don't get the jabs.

I will not be responding to insults or name calling I will again state.

My body my choice.

I would be interested in reading how others stand on this.:)

Just need to find a way to isolate you from the rest of the country to minimise the harm you do.

iguana

Wibbs wrote: »

Contagion, real or imagined, pathogen or people is a right charm for it and has been used by most such regimes in history as excuses and reasons for reducing liberty and exerting control.

The thing is before routine vaccinations there were restrictions on people. For example all of the books in Enid Blyton's Malory Tower series (about a girls boarding school, written between 1946-51) feature an early scene where the characters have to hand in their Health Certificates at the start of every term.* These certs specified that they had not been in contact with an infectious disease during the holidays. If they do not have a cert for some reason, they most stay in isolation at school until they have passed a quarantine period. Students who contract mumps are kept in quarantine either at school or at home until they are certified safe to return. If modern boarding schools require presentation of an up to date confirmation that a child has had all vaccines, that's much, much less intrusive and isn't required every term.

*Guess how productively I'm spending my quarantine! I've also got some fresh takes on controversial Buffy episodes!

Jeaimi

Wibbs wrote: »

Then you'll have to ban most people over forty then who for the most part would have caught the "childhood" illnesses like measles, mumps, chicken pox etc rather than have been vaccinated against them. I caught all of the above as a kid, how could I show that in a "vaccine passport"? It would be kinda pointless to be vaccinated against diseases I already have immunity to. Never mind most people wouldn't possess an up to date vaccine passport.

Fair point but there is a myth that over forties haven't been vaccinated, the vast majority of us have been. So I'll rephrase- children without up to date vaccines don't get in as it is and won't be getting in the future. Parents who can't produce evidence that they have been vaccinated for Corona virus will not be getting through the door. That's the point.

robinph

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually you have zero clue if this is the case. Certainly you nor anyone else can't make that claim so confidently. We simply don't know.

There is plenty to show its difficult to catch outside. Have seen several articles about cases of transmission that were traced in South Korea and Japan where out of several hundred transmissions there would be one, or none, cases of transmission in the outdoors.

Plenty of evidence about how long the virus lasts outside, in daylight, how it drops to the ground quickly in heavier droplets, gets blown away by the wind and that people just don't stand as close to each other outdoors anyway. Add on a bit of additional social distancing and the chances of getting enough of a dose whilst outside are reduced even further.

Of course if you are getting up close and personal with someone then if you are inside or outside really doesn't make any difference, but that doesn't change the significantly lower chances of infections being passed along during normal social distance interaction outside.

iguana

Jeaimi wrote: »

Fair point but there is a myth that over forties haven't been vaccinated, the vast majority of us have been.

The MMR was only introduced in Ireland in 1985. Very, very few people of 40+ have had it. Most women our age will have had a rubella vaccine pre-puberty but we weren't vaccinated against the other two.

Water John

Extended family member recently had a baby. Three weeks later up rocks a 'friend' to the door with two unvaccinated kids in tow. I mean WTF??

Triangle

I wonder where the civil rights stop with people that demand mandatory vaccinations?

Embryos don't need protecting, but immune compromised people do? Do you think the government should monitor all digital transmissions to find criminals (to save lives and stop crime)? Where's the line that you don't cross with infringing a person's rights?

I'm pro choice (edit: and would get the vaccine), If someone is pregnant and refuses a blood transfusion to save their life. Their beliefs, their choice. Who am I to force my beliefs on others? Seems like the Catholic Church did that for centuries.......

One eyed Jack

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I would be interested in reading how others stand on this.:)

Ill-informed numbnuts are inevitably going to declare that vaccines should be compulsory, or mandatory on condition of depriving people of services. It’s the authoritarian wishful thinker coming out in them (no vaccine for that yet unfortunately).

However if one were to actually express more than just a passing interest in reality they would understand that making vaccinations mandatory wouldn’t increase their uptake in Western society -


So, why is there a trend towards mandates and other legal instruments? Political science research on the value of international sanctions against rogue nations has found that while they are often ineffective, sanctions may give some satisfaction to the government implementing the rules. The same may apply to vaccine mandates. ‘Sanctions are often more about the sender than the recipient,’ says Dr Katie Attwell, University of Western Australia, ‘Maybe it’s more of an emotional experience for those who want to punish a country – or, in in the case of vaccinations, a citizen – that deviates from the norm.’

The impact of mandates in European countries has been assessed by the EU-funded ASSET project which found no clear link between vaccine uptake and mandatory vaccination. The report, which has been cited by the European Commission in response to questions from Members of the European Parliament states: ‘The enforcement of mandatory vaccinations does not appear to be relevant in determining childhood immunisation rate in the analysed countries. Those [countries] where a vaccination is mandatory do not usually reach better coverage than neighbour or similar countries where there is no legal obligation.’

ASSET experts have also argued that while mandatory vaccination might fix a short-term problem, it is not a long-term solution. Better organisation of health systems and strong communication strategies may prove more effective. ‘Mandatory vaccinations for both healthcare workers and the public can obtain a rapid improvement in immunisation rates, but in the end, have high costs, especially in term of litigation,’ says Dr Darina O’Flanagan, previous Director of Health Protection Surveillance Centre Ireland and a member of the Advisory Forum of the European Centre for Disease Control 2005-2016.

This is echoed by the EU Commissioner with responsibility for health, Dr Vytenis Andriukaitis ‘The legitimate goal of achieving the highest possible immunisation rates can be attained through less stringent policies, and most Member States prefer the adoption of ‘recommendation policies’ or else a mix of obligation/recommendation policies,’ according to EU Commissioner.

MANDATORY VACCINATION: DOES IT WORK IN EUROPE?


A question for those in the “mandatory vaccination or else” camp -

If the vaccine for Covid was developed and manufactured in China, would you want to be among the first to volunteer for it?


At least two different vaccines -- rabies, and diphtheria and tetanus (DPT) -- manufactured by Changchun Changsheng Biotechnology are known to be defective. State-run Xinhua news agency reports that at least 113,000 doses of the company's rabies vaccine are affected.

In a statement, the Jilin Provincial Food and Drug Administration said a total of 253,338 doses of Changsheng's DPT vaccine were faulty. This batch was sold to the Shandong Provincial Disease Prevention and Control Center.

It follows an earlier incident, in November 2017, when at least another 400,000 doses of the same vaccine, produced by a different, second company, the Wuhan Institute of Biological Products, were found to be substandard.


Outrage in China over thousands of faulty vaccines for children

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

I will kick this off I will not be taken it end of story and I will not be answering to ANYBODY my body my choice.

Taken to where?

Jeaimi

iguana wrote: »

The MMR was only introduced in Ireland in 1985. Very, very few people of 40+ have had it. Most women our age will have had a rubella vaccine pre-puberty but we weren't vaccinated against the other two.

Yes that vaccine as one shot began in the eighties. Measles 1968, Mumps 1948, Rubella 1968. We have vaccination programs that go all the way back to the fifties (thank you Noel Browne) and there was a huge uptake. Don't forget Polio and the BCG. No I don't expect people to have had vaccination in the sixties that didn't exist at the time. I think the idea that people over their forties did not partake in vaccination programs is dangerous and gives fodder to the anti-vaccine brigade. Most of us had the full vaccination schedule that was available at the time.

iguana

Jeaimi wrote: »

Yes that vaccine as one shot began in the eighties. Measles 1968, Mumps 1948, Rubella 1968.

Nope. Those were not available as part of Irish public health care. And while Noel Browne was responsible for great changes to healthcare, the real hero of Irish vaccinations was Dr Dorothy Stopford Price.

Beasty

Simple to me - if there's a vaccine available people have a responsibility to others to have it. It's totally selfish for individuals to claim to be above all this sort of stuff

I suspect we are not only a long way off getting a vaccine, but when it is available the roll out will probably be very extended as every country in the world would be clamboring for it.

If people don't want to have it when it is offered, that's fine. They can stay in lockdown

robinph

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If the vaccine for Covid was developed and manufactured in China, would you want to be among the first to volunteer for it?

Why not?

It may well be developed in China, but equally likely to be anywhere else. Where it will be manufactured though is most likely to be somewhere in Europe. Chinese people will get it from a Chinese lab, Europeans will get it from a European lab and the US will get it from a US lab.

I really can't see any country being allowed to get away with keeping it for themselves. There is also just as likely to be multiple versions developed simultaneously, but wherever it emerges from they will not be able to produce it in the numbers required for 7 billion people and so production will be farmed out around the world. Any country that happens to develop a vaccine first but then refuses to license it to other labs around the world might briefly find themselves ahead of the game economically, but the rest of the world will develop their own soon enough afterwards and will not be looking kindly on whoever was keeping it to themselves.

Ddad

My Aunt and uncle went to their graves early because there was no vaccine for TB. My grandmother followed them shortly; the remainder of her life darkened by a grief so intense she couldn’t cross the threshold of the house she shared with her children.the grief killed her, not the TB. The family moved.

My fathers lungs were scarred by TB, but that was mild compared to the fear and sorrow in his eyes when he talked (without meeting your eye) of sanitoriums and other children he’d seen wilt and die for want of a cure.

I’ve taken every vaccine going. I opted to get my kids the BCG when you had to request it.

I’ve no time for this anti Vaccine nonsense. I think it’s anti intellectualism taken to extremes. I don’t trust those that hold these views. I think they are logically deficient and intellectually flawed. They are covered by the luxury of a brief spell in human kinds history where we live without the expectation that we will bury a child, at least one before we visit the grave. Like children whose parents have protected them from every discomfort their sense of reality becomes warped. They don’t see risk. They don’t have the intellectual tools to reflect outside of their own bubble.

Every time I get in my car I may die, information and reason tells me this but I choose to do so as I’ve weighed up the benefits and risks. If we followed the logic of the anti vaccine brigade we’d be living in caves because everything carries inherent risk.

Jeaimi

iguana wrote: »

Nope. Those were not available as part of Irish public health care. And while Noel Browne was responsible for great changes to healthcare, the real hero of Irish vaccinations was Dr Dorothy Stopford Price.

I didn't say they were in either of my posts. I didn't mention MMR at all in my initial post. And I will be interested in reading about Dr Dorothy Stropford Price. Thank you.

iguana

Jeaimi wrote: »

I didn't say they were in either of my posts. I didn't mention MMR at all in my initial post. And I will be interested in reading about Dr Dorothy Stropford Price. Thank you.

I'm reading a biography on her at the moment. She was massively interesting and influential. A shame she doesn't even get a paragraph in our school history books.

nozzferrahhtoo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ill-informed numbnuts are inevitably going to declare that vaccines should be compulsory, or mandatory on condition of depriving people of services. It’s the authoritarian wishful thinker coming out in them (no vaccine for that yet unfortunately).

Always easy to hurl name calling and invective at people who disagree with you. However I see nothing authoritatian about it. We make many things compulsory in our society without people screaming any of your favorite buzz words like "autocracy". For example we make a minimum standard of education of children a must, and putting seat belts on children when they are in our cars.

When we suggest something should be mandatory it is because we believe it to be the right thing to do, not because we are all Kim wannabes in a magical autocracy in your imagination.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

However if one were to actually express more than just a passing interest in reality they would understand that making vaccinations mandatory wouldn’t increase their uptake in Western society

Actually that is not a given at all, nor does one cherry picked article make it so. In fact we simply do not have a very clear picture on the effects of making it mandatory. There are several places that did it with seemingly high success, and others where success was lower. For example in the US specific mandates went from 20 states to all 50 between 1963 and 1980 and indeed incidence of measles was found to be higher in states without mandates, and lowest in states where mandates were strict.

One of the big problems is that changing the laws will put the issue forefront in public thought. Which means some of the increase in vacination uptake we see is related to it now being mandatory. While other uptake will simply be because the media attention of the issue made people get on with it and get them.

However the biggest issue I see with your pretence that only people agreeing with you are in touch with reality, is that much like a previous discussion with you about legalising and regulating sex work, there is a very simplistic approach to declaring "some countries did it and it was not successful". In that neither you nor the articles you cite ever get into the nuances of how each jurisdiction did it differently, or the specifics of exactly how the changes in laws was implemented, regulated, processed, pursued, prosecuted, or excempted.

To simply decree "making it mandatory would not work" is naively simplistic. The real question is to ask how would making it mandatory be done, what would be the consequences of refusing it, how would this be processed and tracked, how would prosecutions or removal from services be done, and in effect what would the SPECIFIC effect on any end customer be of their refusal. The problem is "making it mandatory will not work" and "making it mandatory will work" are both perfectly justifiable statements DEPENDING on the specifics of how it is made mandatory. I believe simply decreeing it to be mandatory and doing nothing else, will of course fail. Just like simply legalising sex work and putting nothing else in place will and has failed.

One huge issue, to give an example of what I mean, is how exceptions to the mandate are attained. If they are too stringent you have an issue. If they are too leniant you can also have a problem. For example when 2016 mandates came into the US it was found that doctors were granting exemptions by listing conditions in the patient not know to be contraindications for vaccination. So in late 2019, I believe, the conditions for excemption were specified more stringently to prevent this.

So when I read a line like "Those [countries] where a vaccination is mandatory do not usually reach better coverage than neighbour or similar countries where there is no legal obligation." in your article all I am hearing from a sentence like that is "We seemingly did not bother to normalize for pretty much ANY factors at all, we simply compared two countries on two variables and ignored everything else".

I am against a simplistic quick fix legislation. It would do more harm than good, and ultimately fail. However I think well done legislation and mandates can be effective. Especially as part of a hollistic program to address also the underlying reasons for failure to uptake.

One aspect of that should be to address and combat fear mongers on the subject of vaccines. On that note in fact......

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A question for those in the “mandatory vaccination or else” camp -

If the vaccine for Covid was developed and manufactured in China, would you want to be among the first to volunteer for it?

.... what you have done here is cherry picked some figures. Specifically for one vaccinee 253,338 + 400,000 = 653.338 cases of defective vaccine. And I am sure anyone reading those figures who did not know better would be made fearful by them.

There is however a lot of details (willfully?) left out of that, and some important specifics. For example the words "defective" and "faulty" are just left hanging there. Ominous as they are. Makes it sound like something awful could happen if you were one of the people who got it huh? Actually the defect in question was that they did nothing, and were ineffective. Which while unfortunate, is not so ominous at all really. "Changsheng acknowledged that its vaccines could be ineffective, but said they would not cause any safety issues."

Another detail that is left out of the ominous tones is also what % of vacinnes produced this overall represents. "In 2018, 116 million children were immunized against diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (DTP)"

So your ominous 650k cases if bad product reflects 0.5% of the product of ONE SINGLE YEAR let alone the quantity of that product ever produced. Hardly so ominous now is it ??? I have seen product recalls on frozen meals that contain actually HARMFUL defects much higher than that %. Yet somehow no one is here saying things like "Would you people who think its ok for German Firms to open up in ireland be the first to eat this Chicken Dinner from LIDL??" and citing product recalls to back it up.

The fact is vaccines are NOT "safe". Not 100% anyway. Just close to it. There is a risk in taking them as with taking any or all medical interventions. It is impossible to roll out a nationwide, let alone worldwide, medical program without causing some harm. But when the harm is a very low % and the gains relatively massive and wonderful, then we do it anyway.

So to answer your question would I take the vaccine from china if and when it comes from there? Yes I would, because I am not ignorant of statistics, nor am I narcissistic enough to think of only myself and not the whole of my family and society in my decisions. I would take a vaccine from a source with a 0.5% rate of being ineffective for the same reason I would eat food from a store where, say, 2% of it's product has been recalled in the last year.

One eyed Jack

robinph wrote: »

Why not?

Because it would likely be dodgy as fcuk, that’s why not, and that’s why I would understand that someone would be hesitant to be vaccinated with a vaccine developed and manufactured in China. Many Chinese people feel the same way.

robinph wrote: »

I really can't see any country being allowed to get away with keeping it for themselves. There is also just as likely to be multiple versions developed simultaneously, but wherever it emerges from they will not be able to produce it in the numbers required for 7 billion people and so production will be farmed out around the world. Any country that happens to develop a vaccine first but then refuses to license it to other labs around the world might briefly find themselves ahead of the game economically, but the rest of the world will develop their own soon enough afterwards and will not be looking kindly on whoever was keeping it to themselves.

Countries don’t develop vaccines though? Companies develop vaccines, and I don’t think the issue is that companies will keep their IP to themselves, but rather that these companies won’t be granted a licence to produce vaccines in their opposing political systems. Economics undoubtedly plays a fundamental part in the development of vaccines and all sorts of drugs and whether Governments are prepared to purchase drugs, and who they purchase drugs from, or who the US for example give foreign aid to on condition that they implement certain healthcare policies.


Essentially, China will patent a Coronavirus vaccine and sell it back to the West, as it’s too costly an exercise for the West to produce a vaccine, but China won’t do it for nothing, and they don’t want any Western companies licensed to manufacture and sell vaccines in their country either -


China Wants to Patent Gilead’s Experimental Coronavirus Drug

How China’s protectionist vaccine policy has backfired on Beijing

Wibbs

iguana wrote: »

Nope. Those were not available as part of Irish public health care.

Exactly. Though thankfully while we have had vaccination programmes for many decades(smallpox goes way back and thanks to vaccines is now extinct) , the majority of the certainly over fifty's "full vaccination schedule" was polio and the BCG, tetanus if you got an owie that landed you in the local GP's office(I got that a few times ). Otherwise they caught measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox and gained immunity that way.

robinph

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because it would likely be dodgy as fcuk, that’s why not, and that’s why I would understand that someone would be hesitant to be vaccinated with a vaccine developed and manufactured in China. Many Chinese people feel the same way.

I assume you don't posses any other products manufactured in China then if they are so dodgy?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Countries don’t develop vaccines though? Companies develop vaccines, and I don’t think the issue is that companies will keep their IP to themselves, but rather that these companies won’t be granted a licence to produce vaccines in their opposing political systems. Economics undoubtedly plays a fundamental part in the development of vaccines and all sorts of drugs and whether Governments are prepared to purchase drugs, and who they purchase drugs from, or who the US for example give foreign aid to on condition that they implement certain healthcare policies.


Essentially, China will patent a Coronavirus vaccine and sell it back to the West, as it’s too costly an exercise for the West to produce a vaccine, but China won’t do it for nothing, and they don’t want any Western companies licensed to manufacture and sell vaccines in their country either -


China Wants to Patent Gilead’s Experimental Coronavirus Drug

How China’s protectionist vaccine policy has backfired on Beijing

China does not have a monopoly on developing a vaccine, every country with the resources to do so is working on it, every company with the resources to do so is working on it, every university with the resources to do so is working on it. I'm sure the reports last week about the trials starting in the UK, that was just one of the vaccines that even that one university was working on.

Any one of those hundreds, thousands(?), of projects would be successful, and if any of them are successful then there will probably be multiple of them that are successful. Just because one group develops a vaccine doesn't prevent another group from also being able to independently develop one.

The companies and countries will be falling over themselves to license to other companies and countries if they get something that works.

2u2me

It should be mentioned there are different types of vaccines. Live attenuated vaccines, inactivated vaccines and possibly RNA vaccines.

RNA vaccines currently used in animals are a cheaper way to produce a vaccine with no risk to immune weakened people.

It tricks your immune system into believing the pathogen is present by presenting only the outer shell and not the inner genetic material.


Would anti-vaxxers still have a problem with one of these vaccines?

Jeaimi

iguana wrote: »

I'm reading a biography on her at the moment. She was massively interesting and influential. A shame she doesn't even get a paragraph in our school history books.

It seems like a lot of vey clever woman and conscientious woman have been left out of the history books. It is a shame, especially for our children.

One eyed Jack

robinph wrote: »

I assume you don't posses any other products manufactured in China then if they are so dodgy?

That’s a fair assumption given the quality of anything which is mass marketed cheaply isn’t going to be of exceptional quality, but I own plenty of electronics manufactured in China. They’re dodgy as **** too, but I’m prepared to take a risk with their electronic goods where I wouldn’t with their vaccines. I’m not one of those 5G conspiracy nutters with a bee in my bonnet about Huawei network equipment.

robinph wrote: »

China does not have a monopoly on developing a vaccine.

Absolutely not (not yet anyway :pac:), but I’m not suggesting that they do. It was more of a hypothetical question to point out the silliness of suggesting that it should be mandatory for anyone to be subjected to a vaccine that hasn’t even been developed yet. That’s why I wondered would the same people who are such keen advocates of vaccines without knowing anything about them, be so keen to be vaccinated with a vaccine developed and manufactured in China?

You danced around the question rather than giving a simple yes or no. I don’t need to know your reasons one way or the other. I’m not interested in having the State compel you to do anything. That’s China’s way of doing things, doesn’t really go down well in Western democracies.