Catholic Church, Mass Attendance

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would you gents or any other believers have any thoughts on why your supreme being allowed this Covid 19 crisis to happen?

Or why childhood cancer exists?

Or why mental health conditions leading to suicide exist?

Are you familiar with evolution?

Covid 19 - Evolution

Cancer - Evolution

Mental health - Evolution

Suicide - Entirely the choice of the individual who chooses to take their own life.

I don’t pretend to know the mind of God, so I can’t answer for him either, but there’s no conflict there between belief in God, and scientific inquiry. You’re basically attempting to set up a false dichotomy.

Or is it Creationists you were thinking of?

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So no answers to the actual question then?

For the record, I don't hate Catholics. I didn't suggest that religious people are more likely to commit suicide or have mental health conditions.

I just asked about why an all-powerful, supposedly loving supreme being would allow childhood cancer to exist.

It's an utterly infantile question to ask.

Catholicism, like all religions, is an ideology....just because us Irish decided to drown ourselves in it doesn't make it anything more than an ideology.

I'm sure it brings peace of mind in difficult times...what is so wrong with that...it is also a religion rooted in Self Discipline, Personal Responsibility and Self Sacrafice...those ideals aren't everyone's cup of tea but as long as they are not allowed to influence our laws or interfere with our childrens education then what of it!!!

We are surrounded by other ideologies today, and it seems, we are gorging on them again.

I do find it interesting that you would bring mental health issues and suicide into the discussion though, seeing as we are now taking anti depressants in huge numbers and dealing with one of the most severe mental health crisis in Europe...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-has-one-of-the-highest-rates-of-mental-health-illness-in-europe-report-finds-1.3707073

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/0218/1031271-massive-rise-antidepressant-prescribing/

If we didn't allow Bishops and Priests the power we allowed them maybe we wouldn't have ditched the religion as quickly as we did...maybe we wouldn't have all those serious issues we have today.

Maybe the problem wasn't the religion, maybe it was us Irish people...did you ever stop to think that?

pearcider

Silentcorner wrote: »

It's an utterly infantile question to ask.

Catholicism, like all religions, is an ideology....just because us Irish decided to drown ourselves in it doesn't make it anything more than an ideology.

I'm sure it brings peace of mind in difficult times...what is so wrong with that...it is also a religion rooted in Self Discipline, Personal Responsibility and Self Sacrafice...those ideals aren't everyone's cup of tea but as long as they are not allowed to influence our laws or interfere with our childrens education then what of it!!!

We are surrounded by other ideologies today, and it seems, we are gorging on them again.

I do find it interesting that you would bring mental health issues and suicide into the discussion though, seeing as we are now taking anti depressants in huge numbers and dealing with one of the most severe mental health crisis in Europe...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-has-one-of-the-highest-rates-of-mental-health-illness-in-europe-report-finds-1.3707073

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/0218/1031271-massive-rise-antidepressant-prescribing/

If we didn't allow Bishops and Priests the power we allowed them maybe we wouldn't have ditched the religion as quickly as we did...maybe we wouldn't have all those serious issues we have today.

Maybe the problem wasn't the religion, maybe it was us Irish people...did you ever stop to think that?

Well said. The Faith is always strongest when times are hard and hard times are coming. In the meantime people will continue to worship at the altar of vapid philosophies like consumerism and celebrity culture. Just don’t expect your children to thank you for it.

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Are you familiar with evolution?

Covid 19 - Evolution

Cancer - Evolution

Mental health - Evolution

Suicide - Entirely the choice of the individual who chooses to take their own life.

I don’t pretend to know the mind of God, so I can’t answer for him either, but there’s no conflict there between belief in God, and scientific inquiry. You’re basically attempting to set up a false dichotomy.

Or is it Creationists you were thinking of?

Isn't Creationism the whole basis of Christianity?

Are you suggesting that your supreme being didn't know about evolution when he or she created the universe that was going on to evolve? Or just didn't care enough about the world to have created one that didn't include childhood cancer?

pearcider wrote: »

Well said. The Faith is always strongest when times are hard and hard times are coming. In the meantime people will continue to worship at the altar of vapid philosophies like consumerism and celebrity culture. Just don’t expect your children to thank you for it.

There are alternatives to Christianity that don't involve consumerism and celebrity culture.

Silentcorner wrote: »

It's an utterly infantile question to ask.

Catholicism, like all religions, is an ideology....just because us Irish decided to drown ourselves in it doesn't make it anything more than an ideology.

I'm sure it brings peace of mind in difficult times...what is so wrong with that...it is also a religion rooted in Self Discipline, Personal Responsibility and Self Sacrafice...those ideals aren't everyone's cup of tea but as long as they are not allowed to influence our laws or interfere with our childrens education then what of it!!!

We are surrounded by other ideologies today, and it seems, we are gorging on them again.

I do find it interesting that you would bring mental health issues and suicide into the discussion though, seeing as we are now taking anti depressants in huge numbers and dealing with one of the most severe mental health crisis in Europe...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-has-one-of-the-highest-rates-of-mental-health-illness-in-europe-report-finds-1.3707073

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2019/0218/1031271-massive-rise-antidepressant-prescribing/

If we didn't allow Bishops and Priests the power we allowed them maybe we wouldn't have ditched the religion as quickly as we did...maybe we wouldn't have all those serious issues we have today.

Maybe the problem wasn't the religion, maybe it was us Irish people...did you ever stop to think that?

So definitely no answer to the question about what your supreme being was thinking or planning when he created a world that includes childhood cancer?

Silentcorner

[


So definitely no answer to the question about what your supreme being was thinking or planning when he created a world that includes childhood cancer?[/QUOTE]

You never specified which one of the 100 genders the child was....

keano_afc

Are people really still banging the "dont believe in God because bad things happen" drum? Wow.

I remember a friend of mine sending me on the video of Gaybo's interview with Fry. The headline on the piece was about Fry coming out with "the question that nobody can answer". I thought it was going to be something new and profound, instead it was something a 6 year old would say.

mikhail

keano_afc wrote: »

Are people really still banging the "dont believe in God because bad things happen" drum? Wow.

I remember a friend of mine sending me on the video of Gaybo's interview with Fry. The headline on the piece was about Fry coming out with "the question that nobody can answer". I thought it was going to be something new and profound, instead it was something a 6 year old would say.

People have been asking that question since at least 300 B.C. They'll keep asking until you acknowledge that the all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent god such as the modern Catholic god is a contradiction.

whisky_galore

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I cant remember the last wedding, christening, communion where the people involved actually wanted to be there. it was jut expected so they went through the motions

I'd go to a wedding if it was a bit of craic, under duress if it was a relative. The other two i couldn't give a shiny shyte about. Couldn't wait to get away from my own communion and confirmation. It was meaningless twaddle from my pov, the money was welcome though.

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Isn't Creationism the whole basis of Christianity?

No, it’s not. There’s a lot more to Christianity than simply Creationism, but I think you’re well aware I was referring to a specific denomination of Christianity -


The term creationism most often refers to belief in special creation; the claim that the universe and lifeforms were created as they exist today by divine action, and that the only true explanations are those which are compatible with a Christian fundamentalist literal interpretation of the creation myths found in the Bible's Genesis creation narrative. Since the 1970s, the commonest form of this has been Young Earth Creationism which posits special creation of the universe and lifeforms within the last 10,000 years on the basis of Flood geology, and promotes pseudoscientific creation science. From the 18th century onward, Old Earth Creationism accepted geological time harmonized with Genesis through gap or day-age theory, while supporting anti-evolution. Modern old-Earth creationists support progressive creationism and continue to reject evolutionary explanations. Following political controversy, creation science was reformulated as intelligent design and neo-creationism.

Mainline Protestants and the Catholic Church reconcile modern science with their faith in Creation through forms of theistic evolution which hold that God purposefully created through the laws of nature, and accept evolution. Some groups call their belief evolutionary creationism.


Creationism

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are you suggesting that your supreme being didn't know about evolution when he or she created the universe that was going on to evolve? Or just didn't care enough about the world to have created one that didn't include childhood cancer?

Either you didn’t read what I wrote, or you have difficulty with the concept when someone says -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t pretend to know the mind of God, so I can’t answer for him either, but there’s no conflict there between belief in God, and scientific inquiry. You’re basically attempting to set up a false dichotomy.

You’re the only person who’s making suggestions as to God’s motivations when I gave you a straight answer already - I don’t know what the fcuk he was thinking! I don’t know what the fcuk he was thinking that he created a world filled with arseholes either, but here we are - evolution baby!

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Corinthians 2:11

You have a beef with God or something, talk to Job, he was another miserable wanker, same vein as Fry who thinks he’s a fierce clever bastard altogether.

beauf

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is there really an Interesting discussion to be had? Is seems pretty clear cut. People are Increasingly choosing to not be Catholics. The religion has a strong foothold from early indoctrination but even that isn't enough to stop it's gate receipts falling.

What more is there to say?

What people find interesting is subjective. I wouldn't assume because I find something not interesting that no one else does.

One eyed Jack

mikhail wrote: »

People have been asking that question since at least 300 B.C. They'll keep asking until you acknowledge that the all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent god such as the modern Catholic god is a contradiction.

They’d be continuing to show their own ignorance if that is what they actually believe.

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

[


So definitely no answer to the question about what your supreme being was thinking or planning when he created a world that includes childhood cancer?

You never specified which one of the 100 genders the child was....[/quote]

In the case closest to me, it was a male child.

Now, any answer to the question?

AndrewJRenko

keano_afc wrote: »

Are people really still banging the "dont believe in God because bad things happen" drum? Wow.

I remember a friend of mine sending me on the video of Gaybo's interview with Fry. The headline on the piece was about Fry coming out with "the question that nobody can answer". I thought it was going to be something new and profound, instead it was something a 6 year old would say.

So the answer for the six year old is?

beauf

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It depends on what you mean by "completely free".

I would consider ireland free from the Catholics when, for example, they don't automatically get a seat in the debates on laws of the land. They had absolutely no reason to get a seat on TV debates about abortion or gay marriage.
...

The clear separation of state and religion is a reasonable expectation.

Canis Lupus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So the answer for the six year old is?

God works in mysterious ways.

And then when the doctors cure the child.

Thanks be to god.

Simples!

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it’s not. There’s a lot more to Christianity than simply Creationism, but I think you’re well aware I was referring to a specific denomination of Christianity -


The term creationism most often refers to belief in special creation; the claim that the universe and lifeforms were created as they exist today by divine action, and that the only true explanations are those which are compatible with a Christian fundamentalist literal interpretation of the creation myths found in the Bible's Genesis creation narrative. Since the 1970s, the commonest form of this has been Young Earth Creationism which posits special creation of the universe and lifeforms within the last 10,000 years on the basis of Flood geology, and promotes pseudoscientific creation science. From the 18th century onward, Old Earth Creationism accepted geological time harmonized with Genesis through gap or day-age theory, while supporting anti-evolution. Modern old-Earth creationists support progressive creationism and continue to reject evolutionary explanations. Following political controversy, creation science was reformulated as intelligent design and neo-creationism.

Mainline Protestants and the Catholic Church reconcile modern science with their faith in Creation through forms of theistic evolution which hold that God purposefully created through the laws of nature, and accept evolution. Some groups call their belief evolutionary creationism.


Creationism





Either you didn’t read what I wrote, or you have difficulty with the concept when someone says -





You’re the only person who’s making suggestions as to God’s motivations when I gave you a straight answer already - I don’t know what the fcuk he was thinking! I don’t know what the fcuk he was thinking that he created a world filled with arseholes either, but here we are - evolution baby!

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Corinthians 2:11

You have a beef with God or something, talk to Job, he was another miserable wanker, same vein as Fry who thinks he’s a fierce clever bastard altogether.

OK, so let me put it another way so

Do you see any conflict between a god that supposedly loves us, and a god that creates a world that includes (or will evolve to include) childhood cancer?

AndrewJRenko

Canis Lupus wrote: »

God works in mysterious ways.

And then when the doctors cure the child.

Thanks be to god.

Simples!

And when the doctors don't cure the child - so the parents watch their child dying in front of their eyes for months or maybe years?

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

OK, so let me put it another way so

Do you see any conflict between a god that supposedly loves us, and a god that creates a world that includes (or will evolve to include) childhood cancer?

This is the third time now you’ve tried to phrase the same question in different ways. My answer will be the same no matter how many times or how many ways you attempt to phrase the question to get the answer you really want.

The answer is no, I don’t see any contradiction there. I completely get that you see a contradiction, but I don’t. In a similar way, I might regard someone simply as an imbecilic arsehole, whereas you might regard them as a pillar of intellectual rigour. Different people see different things, differently. A child could grasp the concept you appear to be struggling with as an adult.

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is the third time now you’ve tried to phrase the same question in different ways. My answer will be the same no matter how many times or how many ways you attempt to phrase the question to get the answer you really want.

The answer is no, I don’t see any contradiction there. I completely get that you see a contradiction, but I don’t. In a similar way, I might regard someone simply as an imbecilic arsehole, whereas you might regard them as a pillar of intellectual rigour. Different people see different things, differently. A child could grasp the concept you appear to be struggling with as an adult.

So no conflict between unending love and causing your child to die in agony over months or years?


With friends like that...

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And when the doctors don't cure the child - so the parents watch their child dying in front of their eyes for months or maybe years?

According to my parents it was part of Gods plan. They derived comfort from that belief. At the time my immediate thought was “that’s one shìtty plan!”, but in later years I came to understand what it meant to them to believe that God had a plan - because the alternative was that God didn’t have a plan, shìt just happens, like evolution, evolution doesn’t have a plan. I’m not a believer in the idea of an interventionist God myself tbh.


Actually reminds me of one of my favourite songs -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnHoqHscTKE

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So no conflict between unending love and causing your child to die in agony over months or years?


With friends like that...

Surely you mean with parents like that? And again there we would disagree, because again, I don’t see any conflict, where you do, based on your own simplification of reality. That’s what’s commonly known as a loaded question - you’re asking a question when you’ve already determined that your answer is objectively the correct one, you’ve already determined there is a contradiction there, and for anyone to say there’s not, is unacceptable to you.

Silentcorner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You never specified which one of the 100 genders the child was....

In the case closest to me, it was a male child.

Now, any answer to the question?[/QUOTE]

The reason I asked a stupid (ideology related) inane question was because you've asked a stupid (ideology related) inane question.

Manach

Genuinely amusing to watch the frothing anti-Catholics engage in one of few pastimes that would not get them hauled before their own PC councils. The instinct of the chattering class always seems to blame someone, currently the Church and once the Brits. Given if not for the former providing some form of health instruction after independence, a lot more people would have need to emigrate and we in our own times have brought the country to a halt over a disease that would have been barely noticeably with all the others in ages past.

pearcider

Manach wrote: »

Genuinely amusing to watch the frothing anti-Catholics engage in one of few pastimes that would not get them hauled before their own PC councils. The instinct of the chattering class always seems to blame someone, currently the Church and once the Brits. Given if not for the former providing some form of health instruction after independence, a lot more people would have need to emigrate and we in our own times have brought the country to a halt over a disease that would have been barely noticeably with all the others in ages past.

Anti religious are the same all over. They want to ridicule the notion of faith, sin and redemption so they can justify their sin with no guilt. “Do what thou wilt” is their creed. I doubt they will scoff so vigorously when the mystery of faith draws close to them on their deathbed.

Canis Lupus

pearcider wrote: »

Anti religious are the same all over. They want to ridicule the notion of faith, sin and redemption so they can justify their sin with no guilt. “Do what thou wilt” is their creed. I doubt they will scoff so vigorously when the mystery of faith draws close to them on their deathbed.

Which god or goddess should I chose on my deathbed? Now I'll have something else to worry about!

maestroamado

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if you did understand then perhaps you can clarify as to what personal attacs of mine you were referring to?

I have little interest in this topic but you made a personal attack on me by saying i am "ignorant"


I said i have no interest in talking to you and i don't, i will allow you to
justify this comment if you think you can?


I can check back the # of comment if you cannot remember.

maestroamado

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Interesting that you actually take note of how often your priest changes his car, and for what model. Still the valley of the squinting windows.

He lived 200 metres from me and i knew him well, he gone from here about 2 years,

I did not say the model i said make as i not really into this.


"valley of the squinting windows" are you talking about Leo?
That's the last time i heard this comment...

Baggly

Mod

Let's make sure our posts are civil and not thinly veiled insinuations.

At the same time let's remember this is AH and not CA. Keep it lighthearted folks.

AndrewJRenko

Silentcorner wrote: »

The reason I asked a stupid (ideology related) inane question was because you've asked a stupid (ideology related) inane question.

Strange though how you're unable to answer the inane question?

AndrewJRenko

pearcider wrote: »

Anti religious are the same all over. They want to ridicule the notion of faith, sin and redemption so they can justify their sin with no guilt. “Do what thou wilt” is their creed. I doubt they will scoff so vigorously when the mystery of faith draws close to them on their deathbed.

Strange though how no-one on this thread has been pushing that particular creed?

AndrewJRenko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Surely you mean with parents like that? And again there we would disagree, because again, I don’t see any conflict, where you do, based on your own simplification of reality. That’s what’s commonly known as a loaded question - you’re asking a question when you’ve already determined that your answer is objectively the correct one, you’ve already determined there is a contradiction there, and for anyone to say there’s not, is unacceptable to you.

The conflict is glaringly obvious. It's not up for debate.

The values of Catholicism are of loving, caring parents. Yet your god either caused, or allowed to be caused, the slow, aching, agonising death from cancer of many children, in front of their parents.

It's seems that your god is, at best, a bit of a hypocrite.

Love the Nick Cave track though

pconn062

Just on my own anecdotal evidence, I'm at the age where a lot of my friends are getting married and having children. Of the last 8 weddings I was at, 5 of them were non religious (including my own), 3 were Catholic ceremonies in a church. That was unthinkable 30 years ago. Of the 3 in a Church, only one could be described as an actual believer who attends mass regularly. The other two were more down to tradition and some pressure from parents. Neither of those two are regular attendees at Mass.

I have noticed though that most of my friends and relatives still get their children baptised, even the ones that didn't have religious weddings. I'm not sure why that is, whether it's to please parents or Grandparents or due to the pressure to secure school places in the future, as sad as that is. In fact most people are still somewhat surprised that we didn't baptised out daughter, even though they know we are non religious! Almost as though we should do it just as a matter of course.

The one thing the church still seems to have a hold of is funerals. I've yet to attend a non religious funeral. I'm thinking this is related to age profile and I see this changing in the future too.

For the record, I have no issues with religious people. My only issue is when religion and the state mix such as the abomination that is the connection between the Catholic Church and our school and hospital system. If religious people feel persecuted, imagine being the parent of an unbaptized child trying to secure a school place in rural Ireland with only Catholic schools to choose from.

If you want to go to mass, synagogue, temple, mosque or what ever you are believer of, on you go (once the restrictions are lifted of course)

The thing is the religious people online would put people off religion more and more when you read their posts, and not specifically in regards religion.
They seem to follow the religious rules that suit them, while judging everyone else, and that doesn't include the ones who believe the conspiracy theories out there.

One eyed Jack

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The conflict is glaringly obvious. It's not up for debate.

The values of Catholicism are of loving, caring parents. Yet your god either caused, or allowed to be caused, the slow, aching, agonising death from cancer of many children, in front of their parents.

It's seems that your god is, at best, a bit of a hypocrite.

Love the Nick Cave track though

Well it wasn’t up for debate as far as I was concerned either, until you raised it by asking the question. If you already had your answer and it wasn’t up for debate as far as you were concerned, then why did you bother to ask the question? I’d like an answer to that question, but you’re under no obligation to answer it.

I think the values of most ideologies are loving, caring parents, and Catholicism or Christianity in general is no different in that regard. Honour thy father and thy mother would seem like a fairly easy to follow instruction on the face of it, but in reality it’s often quite difficult to do, especially when they don’t agree with you or you don’t agree with them. On some level most people even when they fight with their parents, they know their parents have their best interests at heart, that like most parents they will do what they believe is right for their children.

You say that my God (he’s not my God specifically either, but I get what you mean) either caused, or allowed to be caused the slow, agonising death of many children, in front of their parents. You also mentioned mental health and suicide earlier. So let’s put a real life example on your hypothetical circumstances which appear to be stacked in your favour according to your own argument, from your perspective. Let’s take an example like Donal Walsh - a child who was dying from terminal cancer who wanted to discourage other children, his peers, from viewing suicide as a way of alleviating their pain and suffering. Donal Walsh was also Catholic and had a deep faith in God (not ‘his’ God or ‘my’ God, but just God), and this motivated him to want to inspire others and do good with what little time he had left. Instead of sitting at home on his hole bemoaning how tough he had it and how life was unfair and questioning why would God ‘allow’ this to ‘happen’ to him while his parents looked on helplessly, he had a very different perspective than the picture of misery you try to portray, and he left a legacy behind him that people will remember long after his death. He made his parents proud, he made a lot of people proud, he inspired many people and he brought many young people together and changed their perspective and their outlook on life. He had tremendous courage and managed to raise much needed funds for charity -


Donal Walsh: A courageous legacy


It’s understandable that you would feel from your perspective that God is a hypocrite, but when was the last time you actually actively listened to anyone who doesn’t share your opinion of God? Or do you imagine all children who develop cancer and their families who go through the process with them all share your perspective of God and their relationship with God?

Stephen Fry may have thought he was being clever or smart with the question, but in reality, it only served to demonstrate his own blinkered ignorance of humanity, quite the opposite of the towering intellectual he believes himself to be, but then I don’t expect much more from a sheltered Oxford educated gobshìte who has his head so far up his own orifice that his perspective is bound to be limited by his own belief in his superior intellect.

The Golden Miller

Alot of hated towards the organisation on the thread, total condemnation it seems. I take it the organisation never did any good in the country at any point?

It was interesting to see the contrast between the Pope and Queens visit, and people's reactions. The former was wholly negative, the latter wholly positive. Seeing as Britain killed far more people here, and caused more/just as much misery, the contrast in how we view both is interesting

Silentcorner

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Alot of hated towards the organisation on the thread, total condemnation it seems. I take it the organisation never did any good in the country at any point?

It was interesting to see the contrast between the Pope and Queens visit, and people's reactions. The former was wholly negative, the latter wholly positive. Seeing as Britain killed far more people here, and caused more/just as much misery, the contrast in how we view both is interesting

It's about being on board with the herd here.

During the 80s 100,000s of Irish people were convinced the statues were moving...even the bishops were embarrassed.

branie2

I don't think my parents believed in the "moving statues", and they're religious

maestroamado

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

Let's make sure our posts are civil and not thinly veiled insinuations.

At the same time let's remember this is AH and not CA. Keep it lighthearted folks.

I agree.... btw what do AH and CA mean?

branie2

AH is After Hours, and CA is Current Affairs

Silentcorner

branie2 wrote: »

I don't think my parents believed in the "moving statues", and they're religious

Millions didn't...but loads did...the whole summer of 85 was awash with moving statues.

Edgware

Silentcorner wrote: »

Millions didn't...but loads did...the whole summer of 85 was awash with moving statues.

Most people went for the chip van or the ice cream van
The moving statue was a bonus

maestroamado

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Which god or goddess should I chose on my deathbed? Now I'll have something else to worry about!

I think if i got a goddess into the bed i might come alive again and be upstanding citizen...

pearcider

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Alot of hated towards the organisation on the thread, total condemnation it seems. I take it the organisation never did any good in the country at any point?

It was interesting to see the contrast between the Pope and Queens visit, and people's reactions. The former was wholly negative, the latter wholly positive. Seeing as Britain killed far more people here, and caused more/just as much misery, the contrast in how we view both is interesting

The desolation of the Christian faith among the common people in Christendom and the persecution of Christians in the remaining bastions of the faith in Africa and the Middle East are clear signs that we approach the end of the age. The generation that has now passed away were the last of the mass faithful in the western world. Christianity is now suddenly a minority and revolutionary world view. Just as it was when the Caesar Nero tortured and murdered them two millennia ago.

How extraordinary has been the change in the western world in a few decades. Truly our ancestors who constructed such wonders as the Hagia Sophia, the Notre Dame de Paris or Saint Peters Basilica would never have believed the desolation of the faith. True believers, those few faithful that remain, should take heart and read Matthew 24 and pray for humanity. For the hour is late.

jaxxx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Alot of hated towards the organisation on the thread, total condemnation it seems. I take it the organisation never did any good in the country at any point?

It was interesting to see the contrast between the Pope and Queens visit, and people's reactions. The former was wholly negative, the latter wholly positive. Seeing as Britain killed far more people here, and caused more/just as much misery, the contrast in how we view both is interesting

How many people's deaths throughout history can be directly attributed to actions of the Catholic Church?


I would tend to think they more than earned their hatred.. .. ..

I hope I live to see its demise, and I'll gladly pi$$ on its grave if I do.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is the third time now you’ve tried to phrase the same question in different ways. My answer will be the same no matter how many times or how many ways you attempt to phrase the question to get the answer you really want.

The answer is no, I don’t see any contradiction there. I completely get that you see a contradiction, but I don’t. In a similar way, I might regard someone simply as an imbecilic arsehole, whereas you might regard them as a pillar of intellectual rigour. Different people see different things, differently. A child could grasp the concept you appear to be struggling with as an adult.

I absolutely agree. The question only makes sense if there is a god in existence to answer it. Otherwise it makes no sense at all to ask the questions at all.

The simplest way out is if there no God and the questions don't make sense in the first place. If there's a god then the question needs an answer.

I don't expect any gods to answer. The gods, if they exist, they tend to make their existence very hard to corroborated.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

. I’m not a believer in the idea of an interventionist God myself tbh.

If you're not a believer in an interventionist God, what evidence to you have that any God's exist at all?

El_Duderino 09

pconn062 wrote: »

...

I have noticed though that most of my friends and relatives still get their children baptised, even the ones that didn't have religious weddings. I'm not sure why that is, whether it's to please parents or Grandparents or due to the pressure to secure school places in the future, as sad as that is...

I have no time for any of the Catholic nonsense but I would baptise my children if it gave them an option of a better school. Easy choice.

I'd teach them about theology, Catholic and otherwise, and make sure they didn't take Catholicism seriously. But if it gave them more choices in education then I'd do whatever suits.

That Catholics can educate my children in anything except religion.

Das Reich

Wtf ? wrote: »

At the time, contraception, divorce, and homosexuality were illegal

As far as I hate them we can agree that some things were better before.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I absolutely agree. The question only makes sense if there is a god in existence to answer it. Otherwise it makes no sense at all to ask the questions at all.

The simplest way out is if there no God and the questions don't make sense in the first place. If there's a god then the question needs an answer.

I don't expect any gods to answer. The gods, if they exist, they tend to make their existence very hard to corroborated.

You agree with what? I never argued that the question didn’t make any sense. The question makes sense, and it’s one I used ask myself many times, it’s how I came to the belief that while there is a God, he’s not an interventionist God. Andrew didn’t ask God, he asked a question in an open forum of people who are religious. The essence of the question is that God is a hypocrite because Andrew proposes there is a contradiction between a loving God, and a God who he believes causes or allows people to suffer. The point I was making to Andrew is that it isn’t so black and white, but rather it depends upon a person’s perspective of God. I happen to be of the belief that while it might appear to Andrew that God can’t possibly be a loving God if he causes or allows suffering, I don’t think he causes or allows suffering. I used the theory of Evolution and scientific inquiry to make the point - it starts with some basic assumptions and we kind of fill in the gaps in our knowledge with ideas that make sense based upon deductive reasoning.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you're not a believer in an interventionist God, what evidence to you have that any God's exist at all?

The question of belief in an interventionist or non-interventionist God is based upon the belief that God exists in the first place, it doesn’t speak to whether or not he exists, it supposes that he does exist. So based upon the belief that he exists, then what type of God is he - a God on whose constant intercession we rely on for help, or a God to whom we look for guidance and protection throughout our lives? The answer to that will differ even among Catholics themselves, so I can only answer from my own perspective, whereas someone else may offer a different answer based upon their perspective. It’s as I explained earlier and something I’ve always believed - different people see different things, differently. I don’t know for certain that you understand that, I have no evidence that you understand it, but I believe that you do understand the concept that different people see different things, differently.

Baggly

Mod

This discussion is more suited to the religion forum. I am moving the thread there.

If the mods there decide to reopen the thread, please note the local charter there.

If they don't, I'm sure there is another relevant thread to continue the discussion.