The Hobby Horses of Belief (and assorted hazards)

Hotblack Desiato

Hector Savage wrote: »

RCC is pretty much dead in Ireland

Enrolled a non-catholic child in school lately..?

Hotblack Desiato

Letter in yesterday's Irish Times:

Religion is not a hobby

Sir, – It is good that Breda O’Brien (Opinion & Analysis, May 9th) has drawn attention to a recent interview of Sean O’Rourke with Archbishop Eamon Martin in which the archbishop said that the church would not be lobbying to speed up a return to communal worship, and that this view was questioned by Sean O’Rourke.

She is correct in saying that many journalists see the church as either the enemy of all progress or a remnant of the past.

Why should the reopening of churches have to wait until the end of July in common with hairdressing and cattle marts? The Government seems to think that religion is a hobby, not something central to the lives of a great many people. – Yours, etc,

ROBERT MacCARTHY,

(Formerly Dean

of St Patrick’s Cathedral)

ublin 8.

response today:

Sir, – Robert MacCarthy (Letters, May 12th) questions the advice that churches should wait until the end of July to reopen along with hairdressers and cattle marts.

The coronavirus particle sees no difference between these locations.

Churches have been at the centre of several outbreaks across the world and must follow epidemiological advice like all other organisations.

Each new infection has ramifications beyond the individual. – Yours, etc,

Dr BRENDAN

McDONNELL,

Dublin 8.

nozzferrahhtoo

Maybe Mr. MacCARTHY has some financial interests still vested in the Cathedral which has him wanting to get the income stream back up and running? If anything rather than being allowed open sooner, these entirely superfluous and optional pursuits should be opening later. Over here my kids are slowly being integrated back into school which is great. Their extra curriculars like their football and dance and martial arts and music clubs have to wait a good deal longer however. And I have not heard anyone bitching about that yet personally, only a few people in the news like the Muslims I mentions earlier.

Most people I meet seem to understand the difference between necessary and elective pursuits and which ones should get priority.

smacl

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Maybe Mr. MacCARTHY has some financial interests still vested in the Cathedral which has him wanting to get the income stream back up and running? If anything rather than being allowed open sooner, these entirely superfluous and optional pursuits should be opening later. Over here my kids are slowly being integrated back into school which is great. Their extra curriculars like their football and dance and martial arts and music clubs have to wait a good deal longer however. And I have not heard anyone bitching about that yet personally, only a few people in the news like the Muslims I mentions earlier.

Most people I meet seem to understand the difference between necessary and elective pursuits and which ones should get priority.

It is odd what different societies prioritise in a crisis. I see Northern Ireland's roadmap has a heavy focus on getting people back to church with drive-through church services listed in the first stage of lifting lock down. I wonder is there a bit of background panic going on with the clergy that if people have a couple of months without church they mightn't be that bothered to go back? Down south, we seem more concerned about getting the drive through McDonalds up and running

Hotblack Desiato

Get the drive-thru McDonald's to hold confessions over the intercom, and dispense communion at the hatch

Bannasidhe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Get the drive-thru McDonald's to hold confessions over the intercom, and dispense communion at the hatch

d'ja want fries with that?

smacl

Bannasidhe wrote: »

d'ja want fries with that?

Fries are the work of the devil. That'll be five euros, tweny cents and ten hail Marys please.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Get the drive-thru McDonald's to hold confessions over the intercom, and dispense communion at the hatch

"Here, I've got ticket 1-9-8, 1-9-8 - that two gluttonies, a wrath, four prides and a lusty **** - who's got ticket 1-9-8, 1-9-8 please?"

nozzferrahhtoo

smacl wrote: »

a heavy focus on getting people back to church with drive-through church services

"I will have the double cheese burger, a large fries, a coke, the Haunted Bread special with sweet and sour, and a flicking of holy water".

smacl wrote: »

Fries are the work of the devil.

In McDonalds the fries taste like they are made from pretty much the same cardboard as catholic crackers. Especially if you foolishly eat them after they have gone cold.

Bannasidhe

smacl wrote: »

Fries are the work of the devil. That'll be five euros, tweny cents and ten hail Marys please.

:eek:

Thank f I didn't supersize it.

iceman700

Was the original question the difference between religion and spirituality?
If so, I would like to add my two cents worth.
Spirituality is a personal connection with universal energy, spirit or God, combing the oneness of all and mans connection to the planet.
Those in power knew in order to fully control mankind, they had to come between God and man, thus religion was born.
Now man had to go through those in power to get to God.
Religion is spirituality trimmed down, with the control factor added.
As I have said, just my two cents.

smacl

iceman700 wrote: »

Was the original question the difference between religion and spirituality?

Mod: This is a kind of catch all thread for hazards associated with religious belief of any kind so the original question is somewhat moot. Once it involves commentary on religion or belief it is pretty much on-topic and your 2c are always welcome. Note that assumptions on the existence of God are liable to come under harsh scrutiny on this particular forum.

Hotblack Desiato

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

In McDonalds the fries taste like they are made from pretty much the same cardboard as catholic crackers. Especially if you foolishly eat them after they have gone cold.

Maybe a little salt would make the crackers more palatable :cool:

Odhinn

This "mcdonalds" is nothing in comparison to the tempting Satanic Might of the Chinese takeaway.

Hotblack Desiato

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

Timberrrrrrrr

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

I'll try later with a glass or 3 of red

Bannasidhe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'll try later with a glass or 3 of red

I'd need at least one bottle of tequila.

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

Why? I sincerely reckon the effort rather outweighs the reward. As for arguing the toss on the Christianity forum you may as well try to teach a pig to sing. Or to wrestle for that matter.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

Good heavens, no.

Odhinn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

I'm off the drugs that would make that possible, alas.

magicbastarder

it's kinda fascinating though; a fantastic example of starting with pure theory and proving reality (or *a* reality) exists, rather than working out what the theory should be from the reality.
the uncaused causiness refutes the entomological transience by virtue of it being non-reflexive and therefore self-negating.

magicbastarder

anyway, watch this instead. it'll have the same effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2LvQUcwqc

robindch

magicbastarder wrote: »

anyway, watch this instead. it'll have the same effect.

Glad they switched to $HYPED_TECHNOLOGY:

https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/05/10/why-we-at-famous-company-switched-to-hyped-technology/

magicbastarder

i googled the above video and have discovered the script dates back to 1944: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turboencabulator

robindch

Likewise, here's the datasheet for Signetics' random-access write-only memory, complete with application suggestions:

https://www.baldengineer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/25120-bw.pdf

Igotadose

robindch wrote: »

Likewise, here's the datasheet for Signetics' random-access write-only memory, complete with application suggestions:

https://www.baldengineer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/25120-bw.pdf

But.... it was published by a company from SYNNYVALE! See! SYN is everywhere! Repent! Repent!:D:D:D

nozzferrahhtoo

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can somebody take one for the team and read this to the end?

Done. He appears to be copy and pasting it on websites all across the internet.

Mostly it is a word salad version of arguments you have heard before. Specifically the fine tuning of the cosmological constants, and the "First cause" argument.

As always with this nonsense there are core assumptions at the heart of it that are not actually, to my knowledge, safe assumptions for us to be making namely:

1) That all of everything must have been caused. Like the "something from nothing" argument why do we assume one state as default and that therefore the other state was "caused"? They assume their god is eternal and uncaused. So why can all of everything not be? Why do we assume "something from nothing" when we have no valid basis for assuming there ever was nothing?

2) Thinking the constants fine tuned assumes there is only one set of constants that are valid and useable. This is Douglas Adams "Sentient Puddle" essentially. For all we know there might be infinite combinations of constants that would produce a universe capable of sustaining life. Either combinations of the constants we know of, or a universe which has some or all of the constants entirely different to the ones we know about.

3) Causality as we know it is based on time as we know it. The user is applying our version of causality to an assumption that that is always how causality works. Do we know this to be true? Our resident Physicist might be along to tell us. But I am not convinced it is a safe assumption at all. If one of the things that came into existence at/after the big bang was time.... then how can we apply the concept of time based causality to "before" the Big Bang. What does "before" even mean in this context even?

Basically what the user is doing, albeit using a lot more words than usual to do it, is applying some very understandable limits of human experience and thought processes to the universe as a whole and everything before/outside/unrelated to our universe we know nothing about.

Due to the draconian forum rules over there I avoid entering "does god exist" debate lest I fall foul of them. Were the mods to move the thread here, or were the use himself to come and join us here, we could discuss his arguments with him one at a time and poke them well full of holes. Especially as most of them are just copy and pasted from sources we all know and love from many years ago, who have been roundly and repeatedly rebutted over the years. From Aquinus to the.... lovely..... Lane.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

Likewise, here's the datasheet for Signetics' random-access write-only memory, complete with application suggestions:

https://www.baldengineer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/25120-bw.pdf

/dev/null on a chip! Just think what this could do to system performance!!

Odhinn

Bit of a long read but interesting nonetheless.

Last July, the pattern of killings of Muslims grew so dire—in 2018, there were thirteen fatal cow-related lynchings—that the Indian Supreme Court demanded that the legislature formulate laws against the practice, which it has yet to do. Last month, Human Rights Watch released a hundred-and-four-page report documenting the violence, and the inaction—and abuses—of the government officials charged with investigating the crimes.



“Lynching has become a nationalist project,” Mohammad Ali, a prominent Indian journalist who is currently working on a book about the phenomenon, told me. He said few perpetrators are punished, which has created a culture of impunity. Killers are lauded in some quarters as heroes for defending the faith and eradicating Muslims.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-religion/the-violent-toll-of-hindu-nationalism-in-india?utm_campaign=falcon&utm_brand=tny&utm_social-type=owned&utm_medium=social&mbid=social_facebook&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR06lZ8pnM3-eDoOFvAymsivlwQbhKKRfUPYwEJvU6XkhU4CKgDE5xRflvo

robindch

pauldla wrote: »

They paid millions? I must away with some parchment and cold tea...

World famous Dead Sea Scrolls at Museum of the Bible 'are fake'

That Hobby Lobby story involving allegations of wide-scale scholarly dishonesty, theft, palm-greasing and fakery has been running for some years by now and with this latest court case, it doesn't look like it'll be finishing up any time soon:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/hobby-lobby-sues-christies-wants-us-to-feel-sorry-for-them

branie2

Good luck with this

Sorry about that earlier unintended pun

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0519/1139231-wall-of-crosses/

It is good that these deaths are being marked, especially as funerals are so restricted now.
But it does feel a bit presumptious really, as if everyone who has died would have been a catholic/christian.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0519/1139231-wall-of-crosses/

It is good that these deaths are being marked, especially as funerals are so restricted now.
But it does feel a bit presumptious really, as if everyone who has died would have been a catholic/christian.

I think you're maybe being a bit oversensitive there. There is no implication that the dead were all Catholic or Christian. Catholics/Christians pray for/remember the dead because of their own beliefs, not the beliefs of those who have died.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52786242

robindch

^^^ Similar, but less happy outcome, in Cameroon:

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/panic-grips-faithful-after-cameroon-covid-pastor-dies

VOA wrote:

Panic has gripped several hundred people after a popular Cameroon pastor and candidate in the central African state’s last presidential election, Frankline Ndifor, died of COVID-19 following his prayers that hundreds of his supporters should be cured of the coronavirus. [...] "This is a pastor that has been laying hands [on the sick] and claiming that he cures COVID-19," Che said. "If you, the person that claims that you are curing COVID-19, you are dead, what about the fellow people that were affected by the COVID-19? Now that he is dead, I do not know how the people that he was laying hands on will be healed."

Medical staff are asking all those who came in contact with the pastor to report to hospitals to be tested for COVID-19.

nthclare

robindch wrote: »

^^^ Similar, but less happy outcome, in Cameroon:

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/panic-grips-faithful-after-cameroon-covid-pastor-dies

The lack of common sense doesn't discriminate, whatever your beliefs are or lack thereof.

Just because you're religious it doesn't mean that you've less scruples.

I heard that there was a load of Heathens and Atheists organising a party in the Burren this weekend, and they're just as thick and ignorant as any other group of people.
How do I know they're Atheists and Heathens ?

I know because I have been in their company, nice people and great banter but I wasn't having anything to do with their illogical gathering.

If it was raided I'd have no sympathy for them, stupidly and ignorance doesn't discriminate that's for sure.

Hotblack Desiato

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52786242

Religious events have been major spreaders of the virus in many countries, South Korea and France in particular.

10 May or 20 May though? Sloppy, BBC.

Frankfurt-Main presumably, not Frankfurt-Oder, but that is kinda nit-picking

Odhinn

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52786242

In a similar vein, meet the Irish anti-vaccine people, who seem immune to social distancing, as well as sense, facts etc........

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2020/05/25/in-this-together-3/?fbclid=IwAR3a7ZR_eIiX9JDGryu8huRIAQmgRUSlFGziCfkqT6x8cI7sqAKaHiqe4Zw

Pawwed Rig

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Religious events have been major spreaders of the virus in many countries, South Korea and France in particular.

The lord moving in mysterious ways maybe?

Pawwed Rig

More barbarity

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0525/1141486-philip-ogbewe-court/

loobylou

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

More barbarity

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2020/0525/1141486-philip-ogbewe-court/

Shockingly lenient sentence.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-closes-its-doors-after-flouting-public-health-rules-1.4264864

A church in Blackrock, Co Dublin, closed its doors to the public on Thursday after it was reminded of its responsibilities by the Dublin Archdiocese following reports that dozens of mass-goers have been attending services there in recent weeks.

Government guidelines stipulate that churches should not reopen until phase four of the roadmap to ease restrictions and reopen the country comes into effect on July 20th.

However, members of the public have been physically attending mass at the Church of the Guardian Angels in direct violation of the restrictions.

While the church broadcasts mass daily on its website, it is understood parishioners have been taking up seats behind the cameras at the back of the church.

However, those in attendance appear to have been adhering to social distancing guidelines, with seats positioned two metres apart.

It is unclear whether the Dublin Archdiocese, which has explicitly banned the practice, will take any action against the priests involved. However, it is understood they have been contacted and reminded of their responsibilities.

In a statement on Thursday, Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin pointed to a policy statement on the parish’s website which “unambiguously” states: “Public attendance at daily or Sunday mass is not permissible during the current pandemic.”

Archbishop Martin said: “I am assured that the parish has now returned to that policy.

“This Irish church is working intensely to ensure that the reopening of churches for public worship will be take place in a manner and at a time that is safe.

“I appeal to all churches in the Archdiocese of Dublin to adhere strictly to public policy, even if it involves patience and personal suffering.”

Archbishop Martin added that the Irish Bishops Conference will shortly publish a detailed document and checklist regarding the steps that each parish must take before the reopening of churches.

“What is involved is more than simple social distancing,” he said. “A vital dimension of the fight to address the coronavirus crisis is public health policy that proposes a sequenced effort to ensure that the reopening of diverse elements of society is properly and safely managed.

“The current public health policy has required sacrifice on the part of all of us. People have accepted that. I think of those who have had to bury a loved one without the normal process of grieving, with funeral rites limited to a bare minimum. We must show respect for those whose sacrifice has been greatest.

“Public health policy will only work when its proposals and sequencing are fully respected by all. There is no room for self-dispensation from or self-interpretation of the norms.

“Jumping the queue by individuals or communities puts everyone at risk. I have reminded all parishes this week that disregard for the norms of public health is something that is unacceptable.”

Igotadose

Considering the number of people in their 'Sunday best' we see wandering about near the local churches in West Kerry on Sundays, I'm sure there are masses going on behind closed doors throughout the country.

smacl

Reading a piece on the RTE website this morning where riot police were used to clear the crowds to give Trump a photo opportunity to hold up a bible. While I often give off about the RCC and Christianity I wonder are these guys even practicing the same religion. Absolutely heinous stuff.

smacl

And the inevitable Godwinning follows. People say the European project is in crisis but the states look are looking every bit as shaky.

smacl

And the church aren't too pleased about it either, from the beeb

"The Episcopal Bishop of Washington, the Right Reverend Mariann Budde, said: "The president just used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and one of the churches of my diocese, without permission, as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.""

If Christian God ever wanted to prove his existence to the heathens he certainly seems to have missed out on an ideal 'pillar of salt' opportunity with that one

robindch

Seems to be a lot of religious pushback, at least from the Episcopalians whose church it is and theological nitpicking aside, honestly, I can't say I disagree with any of it.

https://twitter.com/revgregbrewer/status/1267610896513282051
https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1267630231055204355

Elsewhere, the normally reliable people over in Bellingcat are suggesting that the police are actively targeting media organizations:

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2020/05/31/us-law-enforcement-are-deliberately-targeting-journalists-during-george-floyd-protests/

Here are the cops taking out an Australian TV crew, live:

https://twitter.com/sunriseon7/status/1267587976986427393

robindch

The burn is strong with this one:

https://twitter.com/angrypiln/status/1267902419570167811

With referential goodness.

robindch

When you've lost Pat Robertson:

https://mobile.twitter.com/BelfastAgmt/status/1267996711756148736

Odhinn

This is just bizarre

Speaking in the White House Rose Garden on Friday, Mr Trump said: "We all saw what happened last week. We can't let that happen.
"Hopefully George is looking down and saying this is a great thing that's happening for our country. A great day for him. It's a great day for everybody."
He added: "This is a great, great day in terms of equality."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52941258