Should city centres be pedestrianised and the space given to restaurants and bars?

Harry Palmr

To be fair on the west coast you have to be born with dampproofing! The weather is appalling to this Waterfordian.

jippo nolan

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Eric Cartman's plan is actually to run over junkies and drunks in SUV's I think, a sort of Death Race 2000 for the middle classes

Sounds like a plan!

Beechwoodspark

CageWager wrote: »

I always found it mildly amusing when there was talk of pedestrianising College Green and all the bohemian types where talking about a “civic plaza” where they probably think people will recite poetry and discuss spirituality and drink coffee from fancy little cups. In reality it would be covered in fast food outlets, aggressive beggers, junkies, and pigeons.

Also, the weather is usually shíte.

Totally. Tapping central.

andekwarhola

jippo nolan wrote: »

But, how will I transport my Brown Thomas shopping bags Back to south County Dublin?

On your shoulders, once you remove the plank-sized chips.

Thelonious Monk

They've put up a few protected cycle lanes with wands and orcas over the last few days. Longest stretch is on the North Quays, and over at Westland Row and Nassau St.
Hopefully safer cycling and less room for cars, leads to more people ditching the car and walking or cycling.
I love how any talk of this kind of thing is met with such disgust by people who don't even live in Dublin.

jippo nolan

andekwarhola wrote: »

On your shoulders, once you remove the plank-sized chips.

Sarcasm?

Fred Cryton

Harpon wrote: »

Was reading how the Lithuanian capital is doing this and giving the space to bars, restaurants and cafes to allow them to set up outdoor tables to allow social distancing. I know many will object as it’s their god given right to drive a diesel spewing SUV through a city centre, but I think it sounds like a great idea, and would be the only way I would consider visiting one of these places in the next few months at least.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/lithuanian-capital-to-be-turned-into-vast-open-air-cafe-vilnius

No - the local beggers and other characters would make it impossible.


Plus the Irish weather. Not so much the rain and the cold. It's the constant wind that would be a killer.


Works on the continent because of the better weather and also because the undesirables are usually located on the outskirts of the city, not the centre.

Thelonious Monk

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No - the local beggers and other characters would make it impossible.


Plus the Irish weather. Not so much the rain and the cold. It's the constant wind that would be a killer.


Works on the continent because of the better weather and also because the undesirables are usually located on the outskirts of the city, not the centre.

Regardless of the weather we'll still have lots of people walking and cycling everywhere, so we need less private cars in the city. Anyway I've been commuting by bicycle in Dublin for 20 odd years and you probably get soaked less than 10 times a year if you're cycling in and out every day.

TheBoyConor

Grand pedestrianizing areas but all pedestrian areas should still only be a very short walk from places where there is vehicular access. If pedestrianisation covers too much of a contiguous area then how are the mobility impaired, wheelchair users, parents with buggies, the frail and elderly going to access premises well inside the pedestrian areas. To maintain accessibility for those who are not as able bodied as the rest of us, you'd need to make sure that the areas adjoining the pedestrian areas are provided with an increased amount of disabled parking and mother and child spaces.
You also need to mind that a lot of shoppers will be carrying stuff, possibly heavy or bulky items, back to their cars - if the parking areas are too far away from the pedestrianised areas it'll hurt footfall to those shops and so those shops may be opposed to pedestrianisation. You also need to make adequate provision for deliveries to shops and so on. Will access for public transport and taxis be maintained in order to bring people into and out of the area?

Careful thought needs to go into any pedestrianisation plans. You can't just block off a place and say "that's it now, pedestrians only, no more cars".

People and goods need to be facilitated to come and go to the pedestrian area, with an emphasis placed on those who may not be in a position to walk several hundred meters or more to get to it because of carrying loads or because of disability. This could be catered for by carefully selecting the areas to be pedestrianised, and allocating adequate regular/disabled parking, loading/set down space on the periphery of the area and perhaps on one or two shared spaces with pedestrian priority within the ped zone.

At the end of the day if you create a big pedestrian zone, in an ill thought out hap hazard manner that makes it more difficult for people to access the facilities and shops there, you are going to come up against resistance from businesses, traders groups, disability access groups.

I'm all for pedestrianisation but only where it is in an appropriate areas and where there is a well though out design to it and that any possible negative impacts are spotted and designed out or minimised as much as possible.

wakka12

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Grand pedestrianizing areas but all pedestrian areas should still only be a very short walk from places where there is vehicular access. If pedestrianisation covers too much of a contiguous area then how are the mobility impaired, wheelchair users, parents with buggies, the frail and elderly going to access premises well inside the pedestrian areas. To maintain accessibility for those who are not as able bodied as the rest of us, you'd need to make sure that the areas adjoining the pedestrian areas are provided with an increased amount of disabled parking and mother and child spaces.
You also need to mind that a lot of shoppers will be carrying stuff, possibly heavy or bulky items, back to their cars - if the parking areas are too far away from the pedestrianised areas it'll hurt footfall to those shops and so those shops may be opposed to pedestrianisation. You also need to make adequate provision for deliveries to shops and so on. Will access for public transport and taxis be maintained in order to bring people into and out of the area?

Careful thought needs to go into any pedestrianisation plans. You can't just block off a place and say "that's it now, pedestrians only, no more cars".

People and goods need to be facilitated to come and go to the pedestrian area, with an emphasis placed on those who may not be in a position to walk several hundred meters or more to get to it because of carrying loads or because of disability. This could be catered for by carefully selecting the areas to be pedestrianised, and allocating adequate regular/disabled parking, loading/set down space on the periphery of the area and perhaps on one or two shared spaces with pedestrian priority within the ped zone.

At the end of the day if you create a big pedestrian zone, in an ill thought out hap hazard manner that makes it more difficult for people to access the facilities and shops there, you are going to come up against resistance from businesses, traders groups, disability access groups.

I'm all for pedestrianisation but only where it is in an appropriate areas and where there is a well though out design to it and that any possible negative impacts are spotted and designed out or minimised as much as possible.

Your points are valid but at the same time you'd have to wonder how those demographics survive in entirely pedestrianised city centres of southern European cities? And I'm not just talking about the touristic ones, there are numerous examples of cities in that region with very little tourism that are entirely pedestrian. These cities also have much older populations than Dublin as well as that. Perhaps the struggles those demographics would encounter in a pedestrian space are overexaggerated.

I think people will adjust to what is in reality very minor issues.Carrying heavy goods, seriously? Nobody buys heavy goods in the city centre. And if they do, get a friend to carry it with you and get over it. I'd prefer a few more pedestrian zones that arent worked out to functional perfection than most of the city being completely car dominated by default for fear of stepping on the toes of a single demographic that might take issue with it. Anyway, there are dozens of car routes that are positively awful experiences, for the disabled, for the elderly, shoppers , people with buggies, and everyone with eyes, ears, noses and normal human senses. Yet no mandate to improve the functionality or experience of these spaces. Why are pedestrian zones held to such a different and much higher standard of planning and design? They are expected to cause no possible problems in order to justify their existence yet many streetscapes in Dublin are are already as inhumane as they come

Thelonious Monk

Narrow footpaths, streets clogged with traffic, clutter on the pavements, cars parked on footpaths are the real obstacles for people with mobility issues not pedestrianised streets ffs

Fred Cryton

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Regardless of the weather we'll still have lots of people walking and cycling everywhere, so we need less private cars in the city. Anyway I've been commuting by bicycle in Dublin for 20 odd years and you probably get soaked less than 10 times a year if you're cycling in and out every day.

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

Phil.x

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

Well the greens don't think outside of Dublin.

Thelonious Monk

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

Ok then let them all drive to the city centre that'll work out well

Thelonious Monk

Phil.x wrote: »

Well the greens don't think outside of Dublin.

DCC brought in the recent changes not the Greens. It's about time they made some changes. If you choose to live in westmeath and work in Dublin it doesn't mean the city should ne designed to suit you.

wakka12

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

He said less, not none. Obviously there is a lot of people commuting from areas far away from the city centre but they dont need to be able to drive all over the entire city centre either. A bit of balance, and that balance is currently very much weighted towards accomodating drivers

Pete_Cavan

Fred Cryton wrote: »

haha don't make me laugh....and for the 500,000 people who work in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin every day? Cycle you say?

No, that's what public transport is for and to provide it effectively, it needs to be prioritised. Restricting cars helps with that too so I can only assume that you are fully supportive of these changes given your deep concern for the 500,000 people who live in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and commute into Dublin?

Better Than Christ

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Id rather SUV’s outside cafes and bars than hoards of junkies. Dublin isnt ready for more pedestrianised and open spaces, the boardwalk, the spire, christ church, garden of rememberance. We have too many problems with drink and heroin to in any way pull this off successfully.

Road traffic creates a level of safety that keeps people a lot safer than an open space with seating would.

Entitled scum in their SUVs are a far bigger social problem in Dublin city than alcoholics or drug addicts. If the likes of you had your way, and people with addictions were all rounded up and thrown into the Liffey, you'd no doubt find some other equally spurious reason why Dublin isn't 'ready' for pedestrianisation and open spaces.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

I've strolled down there on the coldest and wettest days and observed a lot of outdoor seating being used.

"convert outdoor space to help bars and restaurants operate"

"But what about the weather?"

"obviously we'll cover the space in.............."

Better Than Christ

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Entitled scum in their SUVs are a far bigger social problem in Dublin city than alcoholics or drug addicts. If the likes of you had your way, and people with addictions were all rounded up and thrown into the Liffey, you'd no doubt find some other equally spurious reason why Dublin isn't 'ready' for pedestrianisation and open spaces.

Maybe not thrown into the Liffey but they need to be got out of the city before any wishy washy climate rubbish is focused on. A blight on the city and not one would be missed.

Better Than Christ

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Maybe not thrown into the Liffey but they need to be got out of the city before any wishy washy climate rubbish is focused on. A blight on the city and not one would be missed.

Private cars are a blight. Quite apart from their negative effect on the environment, they impede public transport and prevent people from walking or cycling safely around the city.

Better Than Christ

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Private cars are a blight. Quite apart from their negative effect on the environment, they impede public transport and prevent people from walking or cycling safely around the city.

They’re not a blight. They’re not ideal in such numbers but shouting and roaring like an extremist about them isn’t doing the whole thing any favours.

Better Than Christ

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

They’re not a blight. They’re not ideal in such numbers but shouting and roaring like an extremist about them isn’t doing the whole thing any favours.

In such numbers, private cars are a blight. They ruin the city for literally everyone else (pedestrians, public transport users and cyclists). That's not an extreme view; it's a fact.

Thelonious Monk

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Maybe not thrown into the Liffey but they need to be got out of the city before any wishy washy climate rubbish is focused on. A blight on the city and not one would be missed.

What wishy washy climate rubbish are you talking about? This is a discussion about giving more space to pedestrians and bicycles in the city centre.

Thelonious Monk

Better Than Christ wrote: »

In such numbers, private cars are a blight. They ruin the city for literally everyone else (pedestrians, public transport users and cyclists). That's not an extreme view; it's a fact.

Yes but if you're in a car for some reason your journey is more important than everyone else's so you should be prioritised.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What wishy washy climate rubbish are you talking about? This is a discussion about giving more space to pedestrians and bicycles in the city centre.

That’s usually what it all boils down to. Isn’t that the whole reason for bicycles anyway?
Also, if a pedestrian can’t wait a few seconds to cross a road then we’ve bigger problems than some cars, sorry entitled scum in SUV’s I should say.

Better Than Christ

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

That’s usually what it all boils down to. Isn’t that the whole reason for bicycles anyway?
Also, if a pedestrian can’t wait a few seconds to cross a road then we’ve bigger problems than some cars, sorry entitled scum in SUV’s I should say.

Why should pedestrians have to wait (a few minutes in most cases)? Why should they have to press a button to get 'permission' to walk from one dangerously narrow pavement to another? We accept these things because it's "just the way things are", not because it's right or fair.

Guy:Incognito

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What wishy washy climate rubbish are you talking about? This is a discussion about giving more space to pedestrians and bicycles in the city centre.

Is it not a discussion about giving the space to restaurants and bars?

AndrewJRenko

Better Than Christ wrote: »

Why should pedestrians have to wait (a few minutes in most cases)? Why should they have to press a button to get 'permission' to walk from one dangerously narrow pavement to another? We accept these things because it's "just the way things are", not because it's right or fair.

How about 'beg buttons' for motorists, where they have to wind down the window and press a button to get permission to go through a junction?

Phil.x wrote: »

Well the greens don't think outside of Dublin.

You should tell that to the 40% of their TDs that represent constituencies outside Dublin.

Billgirlylegs

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Is it not a discussion about giving the space to restaurants and bars?

silly you.
no it's about cyclists.

I work in the city centre. I either use Public Transport or I walk to get there.
The biggest continual threat I face is from cyclists whizzing around the footpaths or the (current) pedestrianised areas.