Will you download the contact tracing app?

stephenjmcd

Was wondering who would run a privacy story first today and its the examiner. This app is literally the least of your worries if your concerned about privacy. Its funny looking at Facebook and people complaining about their data, if only they knew the platform they were complaining on and its data mining

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/privacy-concern-over-covid-tracing-system-1009874.html

plodder

brianomc wrote: »

This night has taken a strange turn. I’m agreeing with 1123Heavy and disagreeing with GarIT ��

I know four people who had their payments stopped. All were spoken to at the airport in the same manner as in the link
https://extra.ie/2020/05/08/news/irish-news/e1million-covid-payment-scam

That article was published in May. So, it couldn't have anything to with the app, right?

It sounds a bit like the poster yesterday who installed the app, found his Google pay stopped working on his phone, so removed the app and it was working again. But, there was an Eir mobile outage at the time. That was the real reason his pay app wasn't working until he got home (and into wifi coverage). Even reasonable people will sometimes make links that turn out to be wrong.

All you can do in this case with the app, is point out the degree of conspiracy that would be involved. The number of civil servants (in a country that cannot keep anything secret for five minutes). The number of software developers also who would need to be in on it (in the company in Waterford as well as google/Apple).

I always say, Hollywood has a lot to answer for. This "hidden surveillance" trope is a common one in movies that depict technology and I mean hidden surveillance as opposed to the completely open type that google use in their own apps, which if users bother to read the T&Cs do exactly what they say on the tin.

plodder

darragh o meara wrote: »

How do you know he has Covid? I have a really bad cough with well over a year and I dont have it.. There are plenty of conditions that can cause a bad cough that are not Covid related. That said, its not a great time to have a cough

Yeah, that individual must have had Covid, based on a cough which statistically is more likely not to be Covid (at this point in time) but the 15 minute "rule" has absolutely no basis in science. People will believe what they want to believe.

YellowBucket

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Was wondering who would run a privacy story first today and its the examiner. This app is literally the least of your worries if your concerned about privacy. Its funny looking at Facebook and people complaining about their data, if only they knew the platform they were complaining on and its data mining

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/privacy-concern-over-covid-tracing-system-1009874.html

That article isn’t exactly delving into the finer detail of the tech either.

Also not very good at maths “ Android users currently represent roughly 39% of the Irish smartphone market, making it by some distance the dominant operating system here.“

That’s both inaccurate and how could 39% be majority of the smartphone market?’

Peregrinus

YellowBucket wrote: »

That article isn’t exactly delving into the finer detail of the tech either.

Also not very good at maths “ Android users currently represent roughly 39% of the Irish smartphone market, making it by some distance the dominant operating system here.“

That’s both inaccurate and how could 39% be majority of the smartphone market?’

The claim is not that Android has a majority, but that it is the dominant system.

Per this source, Android (Google) has about 39% of the Irish OS market, making it signficantly larger than either Windows (Microsoft) with 26% or iOs (Google) with 24%. I suspect this chart is the source of the statistic quoted in the Examiner report.

I think it's the wrong statistic, though, since it relates to the operating systems used on all appliances - not just phones but also tablets, laptops and desktops. For an app which runs predominantly on phones, the relevant data is the percentage of phones running each operating system. And, there, Android truly is dominant, running on 64% of phones in Ireland, versus 36% for iOs and the rest nowhere.

listermint

brianomc wrote: »

This night has taken a strange turn. I’m agreeing with 1123Heavy and disagreeing with GarIT 😀

I know four people who had their payments stopped. All were spoken to at the airport in the same manner as in the link
https://extra.ie/2020/05/08/news/irish-news/e1million-covid-payment-scam

If you are agreeing with someone who is okay with spreading absolute falsehoods then I'd suggest you do a bit more reading.

That guy has spent ten pages telling lies.



The


App



Doesn't


Check


Location


Information



.


It can't. It also can't stop covid payments. This is a fabrication akin to G O D waffles.

listermint

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Was wondering who would run a privacy story first today and its the examiner. This app is literally the least of your worries if your concerned about privacy. Its funny looking at Facebook and people complaining about their data, if only they knew the platform they were complaining on and its data mining

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/privacy-concern-over-covid-tracing-system-1009874.html

Such a poorly written article. BT radio has nothing to do with GPS location storing or requesting or sending. And I see he was trying to add in a mountain and two phones to fabricate some point.

YellowBucket

It just would have been a tad more balanced had the author of article actually explained the technology involved, but I guess that wouldn’t get clicks on Twitter.

On the stat quote point it’s just plain wrong. The article says that Android has 39% of the smartphone market.

myfreespirit

listermint wrote: »

If you are agreeing with someone who is okay with spreading absolute falsehoods then I'd suggest you do a bit more reading.

That guy has spent ten pages telling lies.



The
App
Doesn't
Check
Location
Information

This unfortunately appears not to be the case. Location does need to be turned on for the app to function, if these error messages are accurate:

listermint

YellowBucket wrote: »

It just would have been a tad more balanced had the author of article actually explained the technology involved, but I guess that wouldn’t get clicks on Twitter.

I blame the examiner and the editors for allowing this tripe through as fact when it's clearly an opinion piece. Could have been written by some of the scam artists on here.

KildareP

YellowBucket wrote: »

It just would have been a tad more balanced had the author of article actually explained the technology involved, but I guess that wouldn’t get clicks on Twitter.

There's an ultimate irony in all these publishers and radio stations discussing privacy concerns and data mining about this app - chances are their own websites and apps mine far more information and data about you than the Covid app!

Never mind those leading the campaign against it on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.

stephenjmcd

listermint wrote: »

Such a poorly written article. BT radio has nothing to do with GPS location storing or requesting or sending. And I see he was trying to add in a mountain and two phones to fabricate some point.

Yup agree regarding how its written, very poor and little actual research into the technology

YellowBucket

listermint wrote: »

I blame the examiner and the editors for allowing this tripe through as fact when it's clearly an opinion piece. Could have been written by some of the scam artists on here.

They were really excelling this morning. My twitter alerts from them included a headline (adapted from the PA)

“ Bolsonaro says he is recovering from Covid-19 due to hydroxychloroquine treament” (that’s not typo on my part)

My location is turned off and I have been getting updates.

plodder

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Was wondering who would run a privacy story first today and its the examiner. This app is literally the least of your worries if your concerned about privacy. Its funny looking at Facebook and people complaining about their data, if only they knew the platform they were complaining on and its data mining

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/privacy-concern-over-covid-tracing-system-1009874.html

I think the fact remains that the Covid app is not allowed to query GPS location. That is a different thing to "Location Services" which must be switched on to use the exposure notification service. If you check the app in settings you can see which apps request access to "Location" and Covid tracker does not.

I can see why this causes confusion and it's a shame the TCD guy quoted didn't make that distinction.

myfreespirit

plodder wrote: »

I think the fact remains that the Covid app is not allowed to query GPS location. That is a different thing to "Location Services" which must be switched on to use the exposure notification service. If you check the app in settings you can see which apps request access to "Location" and Covid tracker does not.

I can see why this causes confusion and it's a shame the TCD guy quoted didn't make that distinction.

With respect, this does not make any sense.
Turning on Location services on an Android device, means that the device is using GPS to find location. The app will not work with Location services turned off.

YellowBucket

It’s because Android bundles permissions together. Location services are including proximity location using Bluetooth.

It doesn’t mean the app is actually using GPS.

Just looking at it on a Samsung Note 9 and it is not requesting nor has it been granted permission to use GPS.

Gooey Looey

myfreespirit wrote: »

With respect, this does not make any sense.
Turning on Location services on an Android device, means that the device is using GPS to find location. The app will not work with Location services turned off.

The app does not use GPS location, it requires no permissions

myfreespirit

YellowBucket wrote: »

It’s because Android bundles permissions together. Location services are including proximity location using Bluetooth.

It doesn’t mean the app is actually using GPS.

Thank you for that, I wasn't aware of the details around Android OS.
Still, having to turn on Location is a problem for some devices, because it is a significant drain on battery power.
Oh well, I'll just have to carry a power pack with me ðŸ˜

WoollyRedHat

Quick question, can you find out how many people you have been in close proximity to via app, at any given time?

YellowBucket

I just turned off location services on my Note 9 and the Covid tracker is still working fine.

So I’m suspecting this is down to old versions or Android and their clunky settings rather than the app.

It’s not requesting any access to GPS or location services.

Some rather surprising apps are though ... good opportunity to delete a few of those lol

sydthebeat

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are you lying or just don't know what you're talking about here? The app does not use location services. In fact it requires no permissions at all to run.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect.

This is straight from the apps info

"What you need to get started
Download an app from your region's government public health authority. To find out if an app is available, check with your government.
Turn on your phone's Bluetooth. Learn how to turn on Bluetooth.
Turn on your phone's location setting. Learn how to turn on location. The system uses this to scan for Bluetooth signals. The system does not collect or track your location."

See attached pic

This is a problem for me as location is a major drain on my daily battery.

For the life of me however I cannot understand why bluetooth needs location to be turned on in order to see what devices are nearby. Bluetooth itself is a technology which can scan for nearby devices, so why does location have to be turned on??

This really needs to be clarified asap

myfreespirit

YellowBucket wrote: »

I just turned off location services on my Note 9 and the Covid tracker is still working fine.

So I’m suspecting this is down to old versions or Android and their clunky settings rather than the app.

It’s not requesting any access to GPS or location services.

Some rather surprising apps are though ... good opportunity to delete a few of those lol

Here's what happens on an Android 7.0 device with location turned off:

YellowBucket

I’ve two phones so just out of curiosity tried it on both iOS and Android. No issues on either. The iPhone didn’t seem to be having any noticeable extra battery drain either.

Neither of my phones has a particularly tight battery so, I can’t really speak for devices with less on board power but, it seems pretty low energy consumption.

myfreespirit

myfreespirit wrote: »

Thank you for that, I wasn't aware of the details around Android OS.
Still, having to turn on Location is a problem for some devices, because it is a significant drain on battery power.
Oh well, I'll just have to carry a power pack with me ðŸ˜

No it isn't. Most of it is passive using mobile network provided location or Telemetry from other sources like WiFi. If you are using precise GPS location there is a battery cost but that is down to (badly made) individual apps.

YellowBucket

myfreespirit wrote: »

Here's what happens on an Android 7.0 device with location turned off:

That makes sense though as older versions of Android bundle permissions into not always very nuanced groups that have to be granted or denied en bloc.

That isn’t a Covid 19 app specific issue and you’ll find it’s a problem right across the whole OS.

Android 7 is no longer even supported by Google btw. It’s retired.

This stuff isn’t in the control of the app developer. They aren’t asking for any access to GPS and they’re not recording GPS data.

So I’m really not sure why there’s a conspiracy theory that they are.

You’ve lots of other apps on your phone that are extremely snoopy and very non transparent and absolutely so not aim to prevent spread of covid 19.

If you’re concerned about Android permissions, you should update your phone / replace it, as the problem is the device and the old versions of the OS.

myfreespirit

ronoc wrote: »

No it isn't. Most of it is passive using mobile network provided location or Telemetry from other sources like WiFi. If you are using precise GPS location there is a battery cost but that is down to (badly made) individual apps.

Ah, my ould Samsung battery is probably getting too old, there is no way it will last a day with Location turned on.
Time to invest in a spanking new phone maybe? ;-)

KildareP

sydthebeat wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is incorrect.

This is straight from the apps info

"What you need to get started
Download an app from your region's government public health authority. To find out if an app is available, check with your government.
Turn on your phone's Bluetooth. Learn how to turn on Bluetooth.
Turn on your phone's location setting. Learn how to turn on location. The system uses this to scan for Bluetooth signals. The system does not collect or track your location."

See attached pic

This is a problem for me as location is a major drain on my daily battery.

For the life of me however I cannot understand why bluetooth needs location to be turned on in order to see what devices are nearby. Bluetooth itself is a technology which can scan for nearby devices, so why does location have to be turned on??

This really needs to be clarified asap

Welcome to the joy of Android permissions.

The Covid app uses Bluetooth beacons to identify the devices of those around you who also have the app that you come into close contact with.

Traditionally, this type of tracking is used specifically to track your location (an example is when you walk into a shopping centre and your phone offers to show you a map of the shopping centre, but it's also used to target location-based advertising at you too) so it is wrapped up in the Location Services permission.

However the Covid app isn't interested in tracking your location.

Unfortunately Android permissions is a minefield (and Google have made permissions much more granular in Android 10 in recognition of this). At one stage, most apps required pretty much every permission going to work despite it not being in anyway linked to the majority of those permissions requested.

This is why YellowBucket can turn location services off and the app still works (presumably running Android 10) but myfreespirit cannot (running Android 7).

myfreespirit

myfreespirit wrote: »

Ah, my ould Samsung battery is probably getting too old, there is no way it will last a day with Location turned on.
Time to invest in a spanking new phone maybe? ;-)

It's a combination of both. They got better at managing the battery with location services in newer versions of android.

Something that runs android 8 (oreo) or better preferably!

Paranoid Bob

Harpon wrote: »

Yeah and as I’ve said by the time you get symptoms, get tested, get results and update the app the other person has already infected all their family and close contacts. Maybe instead of infecting 10 people you only infect 8 because of the app, it’s a slight improvement but not going to stop the spread of covid any significant way. The virus doesn’t care what app you have on your phone. The only way to stop the spread of this thing is to make mask wearing mandatory in public places.

R (the virus reproductive number) was never near 8 or 10; it was more like 2 at the worst.
If this app helps reduce the number of people I (hypothetically) infect by 1 then that is a big contribution to keeping R below 1.

Keeping R below 1 means the shops can stay open, jobs are saved, there is capacity in the health system for non-urgent procedures and everyone is better off.