Will you download the contact tracing app?

kazoo106

You cannot win with the tin hat types - next it will be that Microsoft own Github and Gates has some fiddle going on. These people just cannot be helped.

El Weirdo

I'm using Android 10 and when I turn off location services, I get a notification telling me that exposure notifications are off. Although, the app is still telling me that contact tracing is active.

When I look in the location permissions list, the app doesn't appear at all.

Edit to add: I normally have location services on so it doesn't bother me either way.

KildareP

I think a lot of the problem is people draw their own conclusions.

That a lot of those kicking up stink about privacy online about this app have no concerns posting minute details of their lives on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok etc. suggest they don't really understand privacy at all.

Only that because it's the government they assume it's sinister, whereas when Facebook et al are at it, it's grand.

sydthebeat

timetogo1 wrote: »

I'm using Android 10 and I get the same notification "Exposure notifications are off" when I turn off Location. I don't care, but I was just testing it out after reading your post.

I wonder does that happen for everyone?

sydthebeat

El Weirdo wrote: »

I'm using Android 10 and when I turn off location services, I get a notification telling me that exposure notifications are off. Although, the app is still telling me that contact tracing is active.

When I look in the location permissions list, the app doesn't appear at all.

Same as me.

In fact if I turn Bluetooth off it still says the app is active, go figure

El Weirdo

sydthebeat wrote: »

I wonder does that happen for everyone?

sydthebeat wrote: »

Same as me.

In fact if I turn Bluetooth off it still says the app is active, go figure

It should be noted, that it isn't the app giving this notification, it is the Android OS itself.

It is something that is out of the HSE dev's hands, I imagine.

YellowBucket

Seems to be working on Note 9 anyway regardless, or perhaps it just hasn’t notified me yet.

The contact tracing system is in the OS all the HSE app does is access it though an API.

You can fine tune your permission settings for each app to : Deny, On While Using or Always.

If you want to reduce battery consumption what I would suggest is minimise the number of apps that Always have access to your location. Very few apps should need this. I noticed I’d an egg timer with that level or access!

However the issue is still quite simply that the HSE app isn’t gathering anything other than Bluetooth beacon information. Whether your location permissions are on or off is a parallel issue entirely to do with Google’s lack of granularity of control.

It’s definitely worth doing a privacy audit of apps. You’ll almost definitely be surprised at what you’ve accidentally granted permissions to.

It’s also generally not a good idea to run old versions of mobile phone operating systems and there comes a point where phones hardware is a limiting factor for upgrades and it’s probably time to upgrade the phone, if nothing else, for security reasons.

YellowBucket

I’d add btw Apple have done a far, far better job of giving control of the finer details of this and explaining what’s going on:

Settings > Health > COVID-19 Exposure Logging

There’s a full menu and a Face ID / Touch ID protected detail of the logging / checking system.

Google just bolted in to the generic location services...

plodder

myfreespirit wrote: »

With respect, this does not make any sense.
Turning on Location services on an Android device, means that the device is using GPS to find location. The app will not work with Location services turned off.

I think it's been explained already, but "Location Services" is a global setting that affects all apps, whereas permissions are granted separately to individual apps, and the Covid tracker does not (and cannot) request access to Location. Check the permission screenshots below (or on your own phone).

It's annoying that GPS has to be switched on when using the Covid tracker, even though it cannot use it. I think the reason why they are bundled is that Android doesn't just use GPS for locations. It also uses wifi and possibly Bluetooth.

Covid tracker (does not have access to location)



Firefox (has access to location)

plodder

YellowBucket wrote: »

I’d add btw Apple have done a far, far better job of giving control of the finer details of this and explaining what’s going on:

Settings > Health > COVID-19 Exposure Logging

There’s a full menu and a Face ID / Touch ID protected detail of the logging / checking system.

Google just bolted in to the generic location services...

Agreed. The least Google (and or the app developers) could do would be to clarify this confusion and make it clear that covid tracker apps cannot obtain your location.

listermint

There's a heap of folks in here who assume any old chinsese stuff based on Android - IS android.


Thats not the case lads. The phones are cheaper and they can come with drawbacks. This can include not stock Android.


Xiaomi's , Poco's, One Plus would all fit neatly under this banner. Dont blame the Covid app for not developing for every single niche of android device out there. That is simply not reasonable and even if they did the phones developer could change anything on the fly with an update.


Theres alot to be said for Stock Android.

nullObjects

plodder wrote: »

It's annoying that GPS has to be switched on when using the Covid tracker, even though it cannot use it. I think the reason why they are bundled is that Android doesn't just use GPS for locations. It also uses wifi and possibly Bluetooth.

Thought this was interesting from the code:

"<uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_WIFI_STATE" /> <!-- crashed without this -->"

Kind of implies the developer only added the permission to stop the app crashing.


https://github.com/HSEIreland/covid-tracker-app/blob/master/android/app/src/main/AndroidManifest.xml

peterofthebr

nullObjects wrote: »

Thought this was interesting from the code:

"<uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_WIFI_STATE" /> <!-- crashed without this -->"

Kind of implies the developer only added the permission to stop the app crashing.


https://github.com/HSEIreland/covid-tracker-app/blob/master/android/app/src/main/AndroidManifest.xml

thought there would be more java code, mostly TypeScript i see. good spot on 'crashed without this'

1123heavy

YellowBucket wrote: »

It’s because Android bundles permissions together. Location services are including proximity location using Bluetooth.

It doesn’t mean the app is actually using GPS.

Just looking at it on a Samsung Note 9 and it is not requesting nor has it been granted permission to use GPS.

So last night I made it very clear that this app needed your location to function. Everyone on here slated me for it and said it does not have anything to do with location, well there you go there's the picture telling you exactly that it does.

App states it requires location to function but people are saying it doesn't use location. You could not make it up.

plodder

nullObjects wrote: »

Thought this was interesting from the code:

"<uses-permission android:name="android.permission.ACCESS_WIFI_STATE" /> <!-- crashed without this -->"

Kind of implies the developer only added the permission to stop the app crashing.


https://github.com/HSEIreland/covid-tracker-app/blob/master/android/app/src/main/AndroidManifest.xml

I saw that too. Comments had been methodically removed from all actual source files. Maybe they forgot about the manifest xml

Accessing wifi state might be done before deciding whether to use wifi or mobile data for checking in with the server for daily updates etc. Though really you'd expect the system itself to do that. I don't know really.

Fogmatic

listermint wrote: »

There's a heap of folks in here who assume any old chinsese stuff based on Android - IS android.


Thats not the case lads. The phones are cheaper and they can come with drawbacks. This can include not stock Android.


Xiaomi's , Poco's, One Plus would all fit neatly under this banner. Dont blame the Covid app for not developing for every single niche of android device out there. That is simply not reasonable and even if they did the phones developer could change anything on the fly with an update.


Theres alot to be said for Stock Android.

That was one of the pluses for me of Motorola, when getting my first (and only so far) smartphone (Moto G 2015).

Doodah7

How surprising that Apple might put a bit more care and attention into their systems compared to Google and Android...

brianomc

1123heavy wrote: »

So last night I made it very clear that this app needed your location to function. Everyone on here slated me for it and said it does not have anything to do with location, well there you go there's the picture telling you exactly that it does.

App states it requires location to function but people are saying it doesn't use location. You could not make it up.

No it doesn’t. The image I included earlier today clearly shows that it is not accessing location. If it was then it would have showed in the settings

plodder

1123heavy wrote: »

So last night I made it very clear that this app needed your location to function. Everyone on here slated me for it and said it does not have anything to do with location, well there you go there's the picture telling you exactly that it does.

App states it requires location to function but people are saying it doesn't use location. You could not make it up.

You're saying two things here.

1) The app requires location to function. You were right about that. Pat yourself on the back, well done you.

2) "people are saying it doesn't use location. You could not make it up."

So, what are you actually saying with 2) ?

Don't take our word for it. Read what Google and Apple are saying:

https://blog.google/documents/73/Exposure_Notification_-_FAQ_v1.1.pdf

This system does not collect location data from your device, and does not share the identities of other users to each other, Google or Apple. The user controls all data they want to share, and the decision to share it.

and

In keeping with our privacy guidelines, Apple and Google will not receive identifying information about the user, location data, or information about any other devices the user has been in proximity of.

and

There will be restrictions on the data that apps can collect when using the API, including not being able to request access to location services, and restrictions on how data can be used.

Don't forget that Google and Apple didn't ask for this work to be foisted on them at short notice. Maybe it fits better into iOS than Android. Maybe Google will address this confusing aspect, or maybe the won't. The only really practical implication is that people need to switch on GPS all the time, but the vast majority of phone users have GPS switched on all the time anyway. It is not the battery hog that it once was.

plodder

I see registrations have dipped slightly this morning. Would be a shame if it is due to that misleading article in the Examiner.

seamus

plodder wrote: »

I saw that too. Comments had been methodically removed from all actual source files. Maybe they forgot about the manifest xml

Accessing wifi state might be done before deciding whether to use wifi or mobile data for checking in with the server for daily updates etc. Though really you'd expect the system itself to do that. I don't know really.

Android uses WiFi as part of its location services, so there might be some weird issue where if the app is trying to determine whether contact tracing is active and it doesn't have access to check the WiFi state, it crashes. Even though it doesn't actually check the WiFi state at all.

ednwireland

The bill for its design and implementation was €850,000. A further €350,000-€400,000 per annum will be incurred in maintenance costs.

1123heavy

ednwireland wrote: »

The bill for its design and implementation was €850,000. A further €350,000-€400,000 per annum will be incurred in maintenance costs.

That is an outrageous spend.

You're saying two things here.

1) The app requires location to function. You were right about that. Pat yourself on the back, well done you.

2) "people are saying it doesn't use location. You could not make it up."

So, what are you actually saying with 2) ?

I am saying that this app has stated clearly that it requires our location to function properly. Users of this app have posted images of that fact that it requires location services to be on. Why would location services need to be on if it does not use location services? This is getting ridiculous now.

brianomc

1123heavy wrote: »

I am saying that this app has stated clearly that it requires our location to function properly. Users of this app have posted images of that fact that it requires location services to be on. Why would location services need to be on if it does not use location services? This is getting ridiculous now.

I have disabled my location for all apps, opened the covid tracker and got no message that it cant function properly. That would be a standard iOS warning if it did need it.

Covid tracker doesnt show in the list of apps that have requested location access and location access doesnt show in the covid app individual setting. It cant be any clearer than that that the app is not requiring and not using location access.

plodder

1123heavy wrote: »

Why would location services need to be on if it does not use location services? This is getting ridiculous now.

https://support.google.com/android/answer/9930236

If the Exposure Notifications System does not use my location data, why do I need to turn on my phone's location setting to use it?

The Exposure Notification technology uses Bluetooth scanning to understand what devices are near one another. On all phones running Android 6.0 and above, to use Bluetooth scanning, the device location setting needs to be turned on for all apps, not just apps built with the Exposure Notifications System.

Google and Apple have built in safeguards to ensure that government contact tracing apps built with ENS cannot infer your location. This is done through rotating random IDs assigned to your device, so that your individual device cannot be tracked. The random IDs do not contain any information about your location when exchanged with other devices in the system.

GarIT

1123heavy wrote: »

That is an outrageous spend.




I am saying that this app has stated clearly that it requires our location to function properly. Users of this app have posted images of that fact that it requires location services to be on. Why would location services need to be on if it does not use location services? This is getting ridiculous now.

That is Pennies. How much do you think it should cost?

A single ICU case can cost €50,000 to €100,000. Keep 10 people out of ICU and we're in profit. Never mind the value to human life.

How much have we already spend/lost on COVID-19 over 3 billion now wasn't it?

That has been explained so many times. Checking the distance to another Bluetooth device is classed as location.

cb890

1123heavy wrote: »

That is an outrageous spend.

Do you really think?

App development is notoriously expensive - breaking 6 figures is pretty standard, given the number/type of people you typically have to get involved to produce one...

For me, given the potential value to the country/economy, I'd be considering that money well spent. Don't forget, you get a hell of a lot less these days for €1million than you used to!

GhostyMcGhost

1123heavy wrote: »

I absolutely will not be downloading this app. I'm not involved in any conspiracies as such but common sense needs to be applied.

To the people saying they wont know any of your details, please cop on. You have given your details to android and apple, therefore by you downloading the app onto your phone (via that apple or android account), they will know who you are. They are then able to trace your movements and label those movements to you

Please enlighten me how they will trace movements with this app?

If “they” are the HSE, the app can’t and does not use location features

If “they” are the Google, they already know where you are and what you had for breakfast. “They” don’t need this app to tell them what they already know

Funny you start off talking about common sense, the rest of your post is completely devoid of it

cb890

For me, this is something I am 100% doing.

I'm the sort who is hyper careful about what personal information I allow onto the internet (don't have Facebook/Twitter etc. Always v careful giving out phone number etc.). I'm quite happy that all that can be done has been done to anonymise information. Using this app is just one of those little contributions you can make to help our society/country/people deal with the pandemic and hopefully let us maintain a functioning economy. It's a hell of a lot less of an imposition to do this than to have another Lockdown!

ednwireland

1123heavy wrote: »

That is an outrageous spend.

ive actually no idea if it is or isnt, just something the examiner put up so posted just in case people
hadnt seen it, not sure what the ongiong costs are though.